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RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:05:47 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Hi all,

This is my 'Ban me' speech.

We are, for about the billionth time, not looking for weird production schemes or an all Ki-84 airforce. Those of you who keep making asinine comments like that are just showing how big of twits you are.

Nikademus has comments in another thread like this that shows that he has never played BTR. He talks like he has but he is just spewing ****.

Mogami, for the second time in 4 years i disagree with you. This has been said over and over again, the 244th Sentai did not have written on it 'Only for use by Oscar II's'! That is asinine! You guys try to sound all wise saying 'but by then you won't have many aircraft' or 'you built the wrong types' .

That is bullshit! If i want to build all Ki-36's i should be able to. And now the expected comments from Frag, 'but that is giving Japan abilities they didn't have to totally change production'.

Frag, have you ever played WitP? This was not intended to be rude it is a real question! Have you noticed that Gary put in a cost for retooling? Its a freakin high cost too, although i comletely agree with the cost. Guess what? It keeps you from going too crazy (sucessfully) with Japanese production.
This game doesn't need hidden roadblocks, it has costs to retool a factory. It works already!
Frag just sits here and insults the game system repeatedly, doesn't anyone think that is odd?

If i as the Japanese player cripple the British a little more than normal and thus need fewer Oscars at the front but i am getting hammered by the B24's i would like to build a few more Ki44s. But, i cannot because there are very few Ki44 units in the game. Guess what? That is what the Ki44 was designed for! The Ki44 was started at the same time as the Ki43. It was not built in small numbers because pilots didn't like it; it was built in small numbers because it was never intended to suplant the Oscar, just supplement it!

Oh, before you mention BTR again, i will continue what i said about Nik. He was saying that if we had a BTR upgrade system it would destroy historical reality, we would all be flying Ki-84's/FW190s.

I have played many games of BTR, that never happened in any of them. I, as the Germans, managed once to build Do-335's in '44. Yikes! you say, obviously broken! Well, i managed to build 50 of them. Wow, how exciting! I could not realistically build more WITHIN THE SYSTEM THAT GARY DESIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess what it is the same here. Have a little confidence in Gary's production system and open up the upgrade system to something resembling reality.

Those of you who feel we are wrong and that nothing should be done, you have that perogative.
But, we who are upset about this have a perogative we can use as well, don't buy from a company that does not listen to their customers or improve their games. I have already told many friends who have asked about this to hold off and see if some patchs fix some of the problems.

I have already spotted several errors that have been with this game system since PacWar days. That really blows my mind that so many of the same data management ideas can be reused over the years and cause the same errors.

Matrix can respond to customer concerns or not, that
is their choice, however not responding is how they join the ranks of the failed game companies.

Mike


I will second that! GG as a game designer and balancer is unparelled in the genre. Even back in the Apple/Amiga days his USAAF production system (which obviously forms the basis of his BTR system today) was EXQUISITLY balanced and clever. You paid a HUGE cost to retool and if you weren't careful, and you sold your soul to the uber-plane, you ended up with NO planes of any kind! Same here. Look at what happens when you change a Ki-27 plant to a Ki-43 Ib? YOu lose half your numbers AND they are 100% disabled! Look how long it takes to get even 10 of them producing!

I'd LOVE to play the Jap player, PBEM, that sells his soul to create all Shindens by late 1944. The game would OVER by then.

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 91
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:07:13 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game.

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 92
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:10:53 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		I agree MR. CAT !
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.


_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 93
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:13:20 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I posted heavily on the a/c upgrades posts. I wanted to make three points:

1. In my view the Matrix response has always been good. They posted on the original thread and they posted here. It has not gone on for a month, as Zoomie suggests. The first post on the 20-odd page thread occurred on 7/30. It is now 8/16. That is barely over two weeks, including a week in which we know the staff was at a convention. During that time, we have seen a half dozen posts by various staff members, including two that refer to having read the thread and suggest the issue will be/is being discussed internally. If you expect a fairly major decision to be made with so little time to debate its effects, stop smoking your shorts. If you don't think they should take the time to consider the effects on the game very carefully, go buy Risk and play that.

2. Eighty dollars is chicken feed for what we got. This is a niche game market. I bought a game for 80 dollars that might sell 10-20,000 copies. Top end, Matrix gross from that is $1.6 million. Now, I buy a game for $50 that sells 500,000 copies. Gross from that? $25 million. Many more people will buy Civilization, Command and Conquer, etc. than will even be aware that WitP exists, let alone buy it. What you can accomplish with regards to support, features, staffing, etc. is entirely different between the two games. Both can make money, but what can be delivered in terms of service, features, and "glitz" are very different. If you are complaining about the cost of the game, you need to recognize that this type of game costs more and gives you "less" than a mainstream game.

3. When you have done better (Zoomie) come back and criticize. Put up or shut up. I understand and agree to some extent with your points, but you have been arrogant and obnoxious in trying to make them. Having source code to what GG did 15 years ago doesn't mean you know how he does it today or who is doing what today. Ultimately, if you want to do better, then do so. If you do, I will buy it.

Ultimately, the decision made about aircraft upgrades will not change whether I play WitP or not. I will play it either way. However, I strongly believe that making some kind of change would make it a better game and more realistically allow for "what if" scenarios.



Ok, so now before anyone can be critical about any facet of a game, they have to have written, marketed, sold and maintained one instead.

Fine, if you have a problem with Windows-XP, shut you yap until you've written your own OS. If you have a problem with Microsoft Excel, shut your pie-hole, until you've written and sold a successful spreadsheet of your own. If you bitch to your bank about a screwed up ATM withdrawl, shut you whining mouth until you've written an ATM reconcilliation program yourself.....


I get it.

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 94
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:19:05 PM   
Caltone


Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
I get it.



Oh, if that was only true

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 95
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:21:41 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game.


I challenge any anyone, with a 100% unrestricted upgrade path, one where you could upgrade any plane of any type to any other type, to attempt to outfit all your fighter squadrons with Shindens by Jan 1945, to ever last until 1945! You will be dead, probably even against the AI by Oct 1944, if not earlier! Against a human player? You won't make it much beyond 1943!

I trust Gary Grigsby's research/production modelling a LOT more than most of your ilk. So go ahead. Play Japan, and convert every Ki- fighter type factory in the game to Shinden research and every A6MX factory to A7M's and see how far you get? Because that's what it would take to get them both by late 1944....

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 96
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:22:06 PM   
VicKevlar

 

Posts: 881
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		You know what.....this is getting tiresome.

@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.

_____________________________

The infantry doesn't change. We're the only arm of the military where the weapon is the man himself.

C. T. Shortis


(in reply to Caltone)
Post #: 97
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:22:46 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Guys,

Is there really a point to continuing this? Consider this, both sides... you've been heard, we understand and we've replied. We're not under any illusions or misconceptions. When we have more to post on this, we will, but in the meantime I think everyone can agree that addressing bugs comes before these kind of changes. We'll keep you posted and I thank all for their feedback.

For folks like Lemurs who are using the editor to good effect, more power to ya! That's what it's there for and we appreciate your and others' perspective on how we can improve the base game. With that said, there is no way to put out something this complex and have everyone agree with every design decision and every bit of data. Hence, the editor and the fact that we listen and adjust.

If anyone has any doubts on that, just ask some of the customers who've been with us through the UV days - that game ended up quite improved in 2.30 from the original 1.00, but the initial focus was still on bug fixes as it is now. Our first goal always has to be to get every customer working at full speed before we can do upgrades. It's the same as with your ships, the system damage needs to get low enough before the refit becomes available.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 98
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:24:53 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game.

Nothing disturbs me more than the people that have tired to turn "I got 99 Nates in my pool and need aircraft for this here Kamikaze squadron, but can't use the Nates" or "I got some extra Franks, wish I could put one of those Oscar squadrons into Franks" into "Japan gets f18,s Me-262's, and the Atom bomb all before '43" BS. Read the threads, comprehend them, then post.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 99
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:29:15 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar


@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.


Thank you.

I enjoy the game and try to use this forum to increase that enjoyment. Threads like this with a few people repeating the same points over and over just get in the way and clutter up the board.

(in reply to VicKevlar)
Post #: 100
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:36:12 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Frag, have you ever played WitP? This was not intended to be rude it is a real question! Have you noticed that Gary put in a cost for retooling? Its a freakin high cost too, although i comletely agree with the cost. Guess what? It keeps you from going too crazy (sucessfully) with Japanese production.
This game doesn't need hidden roadblocks, it has costs to retool a factory. It works already!
Frag just sits here and insults the game system repeatedly, doesn't anyone think that is odd?


Huh? You trying to be funny?

Do I play the game? You are really just being funny right? I crunch through about 6 months of game time in a less then a week. I've posted the AAR's for amusement purposes while you guys didn't have the game.

Of course there is a recost on retooling. If you actually read any of my posts instead of copping an attitude, you would have read the actual history lesson I posted on why they are there and the fact that they had to be increased to deal with exactly what you want to do. I guess they didn't go far enough because you still want to do it.

I do not sit here and insult the game system, matter of fact, I've been sitting here taking abuse non stop because I support the system as it sits without a handful of folks screwing it up who don't even invest the time to actually test what they preach because they are too busy preaching.

Whatever you are smoking, I want some. It will help when dealing with Zoomie posts.

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 101
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:41:30 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar

You know what.....this is getting tiresome.

@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.



The best post so far in the entire thread ( and Erik R's one too )

Frag, dont feel bad now, you have been VERy helpful for a lot of people here and I want to thank you for your help you gave. dont feel p****ed off becasue of a few other ppl. not worth at all mate.

< Message edited by Oliver Heindorf -- 8/16/2004 7:44:30 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to VicKevlar)
Post #: 102
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:46:16 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Let it go Herr Frag. If Lemurs wants to rant, he's free to get himself banned. Enough has been said on this thread. Those who wish to interpret what they want or read into what they want will continue to do so.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 103
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:48:15 PM   
Caltone


Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar

You know what.....this is getting tiresome.

@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.


I agree personal shots are out of line, and earlier warnings were noted. The post of mine you refer to is not a personal shot.

There are two sides on this issue, gray divinding line to be sure, but two sides. Zoomie and I are on different sides. I believe that this part of the game is fine as is, and accept the design. The 'other' side wishes to make what I consider a major change. Others have argued far better than me that this would change the 'intent' of the game and wish for the other side to 'understand' it the way we do.

I pulled a single line out of Zoomie's reply to someone where he stated "I get it" In the post I pulled that from he was not talking directly about the issue with this game. I made my post to restate my position and the hope the other side 'gets it' This is not a personal shot, poor humor maybe, but not an attack on anyone.

I respect they have a differing opinion but wish they would see it my way.

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to VicKevlar)
Post #: 104
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:48:40 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Time to let this thread die. Until or if we get a poll, I started a simple thread for yes or no using Nikademus' solution.

ANY arguments can go to PM or the UPGRADE thread.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 105
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 8:54:03 PM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

I am saddened if any feel annoyed by the silence of Matrix on this issue. I am the one who decide what, if anything we do about it. I haven't made up my mind, yet. I have been reading the various arguments and have talked with Joel Billings about it. I have had my head buried in code, hunting bugs and generally making adjustments.

After we get most of the bugs fixed, Joel and I will take a close look at it. It does not have priority right now, because it works as designed and we would rather fix the things that do not, first.

Patience Folk...

Michael Wood


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am one of the people wanting the changes to upgrades etc. The lack of an "official" response may be irritating, but I would prefer to think they have their head buried in code hunting bugs and generally making adjustments...


(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 106
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:00:45 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, For games against the AI you can change upgrade paths all you want. It takes an hour or so. For PBEM find an opponent who will allow it and send him the files.

Then go find out why Japan flew Oscar II's instead of adding Frank Sentai. You get your fun and learn something waiting for the PBEM turn to come back.

If I put my mind to it I could twist, tweek and contort the Japanese production system into being a mini monster. It would be using the current system. Must all designers write their code so exact that there are never the means to exploit a routine rather then using it as designed. Loop holes are not bugs. You know if you are using something as intended or twisting it.

I'm still seeing the same old. "I built extra blah blah I can't use because I'm stuck with crappy umpty squats. " Yes and your stuck with torpedos other then long lance on many ships. You build crappy tanks and use bolt action rifles. Your troops are equipped with doodlely and go hungry most of the time. Your civilian population is lied to and undernourshed. Just what exactly are the differences between Oscar II and other aircraft?
Does simple retooling cost account for what would have been required?

To be totally honest I would have prefered there be no Japanese Air Group reinforcements.
I would rather form airgroups by type myself. But I ask myself how could we define the limits. Who decides? I went for allowing the designers to design their game and test it.
It worked, I shut up. If I had complete freedom of production I would be able to manipulate into producing far more then reality could expect because a program is not restricted by the percentage of nickle, crome and other materials that are the true difference between producing a Nate or a George. Retooling is the method to show the cost of changing in lost production. Airgroup upgrade paths are used to show the restrictions in material and other (political in some cases) cost of production.

Retooling takes very little time. If I convert my Oscar Production to Frank once my pool is large enough to support the units while I convert (and change the Nate factories on 7 Dec)
Added to the 320 Franks doing RD and I can be producing well over 100 per month in the first month and top out at over 500 per month within 3 months. (I could if allowed completly re equip the entire IJA fighter airgroups within 4 months. ) I doubt that was even possible had Japan decided that was the way to go.

We seem to find these exploits and then use them as excuses for saying the game is screwed up.

Play the game as designed. It's simpler. Tell your opponent not to monkey around. If 2by3 spends all their time fixing exploits (or introducing new ones) no one will ever be happy.

(I've played deep into the game as Japan. I'm certain I'll win but I'm playing the AI on historic not hard. I build my bases where and when I want. My airgroups are doing fine in Nates and Oscars. (I have Sentai in Nate with over 50 kills, fine leaders, and good pilots. I'll upgrade then when I can. I've not tinkered with production to over produce anything.
The game is working wonderfully. I only wish for a dedicated human to PBEM with once I get back online with a dependable connection. (I'm not afraid of no ghost bug being discovered in 2025 that requires a restart)


There are many Japanese factories at start on RD. In fact they do not exist. They are there so the production system will begin producing certain aircraft on certain dates.
You are free to change these factories that don't exist into producing current models. It costs in retooling but since in fact you are building them from scratch its a magical way to be building 4 or 5 times the amount of aircraft Japan was capable of. This is an exploit. Not a bug. It has to be this way for the AI and the normal function of the system. Your not a genius when you abuse it. I guess we will have to expand the system to include construction of factories and define resource by actual material. Then ship the required material to specfic factories because the present system is too detailed but not detailed enough for those who want to play production and not operations. The manual forgot to explain what the designers were thinking.

(Rodney Mogami "Why can't we all just play the game we have?"

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/16/2004 2:12:44 PM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 107
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:03:07 PM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

This whole thread is rather pointless...show me your mid '44-'45 save game that shows it.

That's my boy...

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 108
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:04:51 PM   
BartM


Posts: 107
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline

Well said Mike...Mr Frag, Erik and Vickevlar

like I posted here, I trolled into this one but really, like alot of the "fix this" threads, I find people really heck-bent on seeing only one side, and nothing fixes this apparently...

sent a pm to Frag, heh have a sip of coffee, take the coffee away from some of the posters here, and remember, its not the majority of people thinking this way

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 109
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:05:07 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I am saddened if any feel annoyed by the silence of Matrix on this issue. I am the one who decide what, if anything we do about it. I haven't made up my mind, yet. I have been reading the various arguments and have talked with Joel Billings about it. I have had my head buried in code, hunting bugs and generally making adjustments.

After we get most of the bugs fixed, Joel and I will take a close look at it. It does not have priority right now, because it works as designed and we would rather fix the things that do not, first.

Patience Folk...

Michael Wood


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am one of the people wanting the changes to upgrades etc. The lack of an "official" response may be irritating, but I would prefer to think they have their head buried in code hunting bugs and generally making adjustments...




The poster you quoted, lacking a polling feature to guage demand for a feature, has a polling thread if you are interested in guaging the percentage of users on this forum who are for or against it, to see if worth your while. And each side needs to vote on the proposed feature request or else you have nothing to whine about if you end up not getting your way.

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 110
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:06:04 PM   
Stavka_lite


Posts: 171
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Tucson
Status: offline 		Personally, I am quite happy with the game and all of the effort you guys put into it.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Yes, it is a dry heat... but so is a bloody blast furnace!

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 111
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:10:16 PM   
Yank


Posts: 175
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.


Black Cat - I agree with you on this. Personally, I like the way it is designed now, and I completely understand and agree with Mogami's perspective/suggestions as well. What I would ask is this: if this very vocal group gets what it is asking for, can we please introduce this as an option on the game menu? A nice toggle on/off switch for an option saying something like "Historical Aircaft Upgrades". Is that a good compromise if Mike decides he wants to code this?

_____________________________

Ils ne passeront pas


(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 112
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:24:18 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:


Then ship the required material to specfic factories because the present system is too detailed but not detailed enough for those who want to play production and not operations. The manual forgot to explain what the designers were thinking.

(Rodney Mogami "Why can't we all just play the game we have?"


Well that last sentence says it all. According to Mike Wood, the game is functioning as it was designed and that design intent is as you have stated. If 2X3 errered it was in communicating that intent adequately in the manual and on the project's web-site. Instead, by promising "full control of Japanese production" many buyers, especially if they did not follow this forum during development and testing, thought that meant BTR-like system since GG wrote both!

So I guess one has to ask were these buyers inadvertantly duped or led to believe something that is not? And if so, unintentional as it may be, what to do? That polling thread seems to indicate, if there is time and resources available, and it is doable, those of your preference are going to have the bite the bullet and allow the game to become something it was not really intended to be....at least allowing it to be that way for those that want it that way via a toggle of some sort....

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 113
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:31:29 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.


Black Cat - I agree with you on this. Personally, I like the way it is designed now, and I completely understand and agree with Mogami's perspective/suggestions as well. What I would ask is this: if this very vocal group gets what it is asking for, can we please introduce this as an option on the game menu? A nice toggle on/off switch for an option saying something like "Historical Aircaft Upgrades". Is that a good compromise if Mike decides he wants to code this?


I think that the BEST solution. If a change is even doable and they ever get the time, I would think it should be a toggle.

(in reply to Yank)
Post #: 114
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:35:43 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I'm sorry. I think I have "full control" of the production system. I am how ever limited by it as well. I have full control but face limits.

In GG's old WIR I found that by converting German bomber production to fighters and fighters to Bombers I could within 1 year more then triple production. That was an exploit. It was never intended to be used in that manner.
(Same for Pacwar and West Front and USAAF) Converting cheap Tank Destroyers to Tigers worked the same. (and converting Tiger to cheap tanks as well. The new smaller Tiger factories would rapidly expand while the new cheaper factories doubled or tripled their out put.

You do have complete control. What am I missing here? I build nothing I don't want. I have to adapt to operations with Oscar II but I control when the groups upgrade and number of ac in the pool/production. I expand where I want. I halt or accelerate ship programs.

Not having Nates for Kamikaze in 1945 means the old Nates have been converted into resource I used to build the newer aircraft I sent out on the 1 way flights.


The Japanese player just has to understand that a good portion of what he can see in 1941 does not actually exist. He does not have to worry about producing super chargers for aircraft. This is covered by the number of high altitude high performance groups he can equip. Aircraft upgrade paths also cover material limitations beyond mere factory size and heavy industry.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/16/2004 2:39:36 PM >

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Post #: 115
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:35:46 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I think that the BEST solution. If a change is even doable and they ever get the time, I would think it should be a toggle.


Keep pushing Zoomie ... with your posting history, you'll probably end up having them say "NO" just to spite you.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 116
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:45:55 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I'm also seeing a complete lack of understanding of simple facts.

On 7 Dec 1941 the Japanese player does not know what he CAN do to his production.
He has a stockpile of material and more factories and heavy industry then he can support.
(This is the reason he goes to war in the first place)

Until Japan secures the SRA bases he has no idea what his production system can do.
What if he captures the bases and they are all badly damaged in the process? (happens to me quite often) This Japan will face a very limited production future.
If he captures the majority of base (Palembang) intact his expansion can be in full swing by March 42. He can peak a full year ahead of actual Japanese outputs.

At no time on turn 1 can Japan say "this is what I'll do" because he does not have all the facts yet. All he can do is make minor adjustments based on what he can support should worst come to worst.

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Post #: 117
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:58:20 PM   
f4migcap

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 6/29/2004
From: Baltimore MD, USA
Status: offline 		I think what Zoomie was meaing was "full control" included 'what' you were going to build and 'where' you were going to put it once it was built. Having played other GG games like WIR and PacWar, i just figured it would be in this game and I'm sure others thought (or think) that too. Its kind of disapointing thats its not in there but playing the game as much as I have I REALLY love it so its certainly not a deal breaker. If your website does say "Full Control" you might want to clarify what that means for older people like me who grew up playing WIR and PacWar
Again, my hats off to the designers for a great indepth HUGE game

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 118
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 9:58:53 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Hi, I'm sorry. I think I have "full control" of the production system. I am how ever limited by it as well. I have full control but face limits.

In GG's old WIR I found that by converting German bomber production to fighters and fighters to Bombers I could within 1 year more then triple production. That was an exploit. It was never intended to be used in that manner.
(Same for Pacwar and West Front and USAAF) Converting cheap Tank Destroyers to Tigers worked the same. (and converting Tiger to cheap tanks as well. The new smaller Tiger factories would rapidly expand while the new cheaper factories doubled or tripled their out put.

You do have complete control. What am I missing here? I build nothing I don't want. I have to adapt to operations with Oscar II but I control when the groups upgrade and number of ac in the pool/production. I expand where I want. I halt or accelerate ship programs.


You have full control over what you build, but not where you send what you build. If some unit in China flying Oscar IIa's needs to upgrade to whatever, full control would mean letting it upgrade(or downgrade) to anything in the pool whenever it wanted to.

Going beyond that involves abstractions of things out of scope or with no adequate explanation to the user. BTR players and their cohorts, want, and many expected a BTR-like research/production/deployment system. That means I can research, produce, AND DEPLOY anything the game system allows to build, no real restrictions (except for the understandable fighter-fighter, bomber-bomber, type stuff)....

The simple fact is a lot of people expected, for whatever reasons, valid or not, to get a much different kind of game from the Japanese side than they got and the one you describe. I don't disagree with your take and intent, and if playing you or someone of your persuation I would have not problem playing that way. THat's precisely how I play the AI, now, ... as it was designed. But I would certainly enjoy playing a BTR-like game with someone as well. It would be great fun. And yes, I'd try and equip every front-line unit with Shindens and A7M's by 1945 if I could. So what?

quote:


The Japanese player just has to understand that a good portion of what he can see in 1941 does not actually exist. He does not have to worry about producing super chargers for aircraft. This is covered by the number of high altitude high performance groups he can equip. Aircraft upgrade paths also cover material limitations beyond mere factory size and heavy industry.


And that is explained in the manual or in the promotional literature where again? See that's the point. Your and 2X3's INTENT, was never really communicated. There's nothing wrong with that intent. The game plays fine, for me, with it there. But it obviously does not for a number of folks. And that's fine, too. Thus the request for a toggle, if it is done at all.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 119
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/16/2004 10:14:37 PM   
Sultanofsham

 

Posts: 728
Joined: 4/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

You misunderstood - "The Japanese should never be able to win the war " is my viewpoint also. I just clarified what I meant by win. You can lose the war but "win the game. I wanted to clarify that I was referring tot he fact that the japanese should never be able to win the war.


Why?


Because there was no way short of the US stepping on its sword that they could win. They had way too many things going against them and just being able to fine tune production and pick which aircraft a group uses isnt going to overcome all the rest of the problems they had. It might make them do better in the end but that end is still going to be the same.

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(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 120
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