Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

The game is as the game is, and we are probably NOT going to get much in the way of significant design changes in this area. If so, in this area, it will GREATLY IMPROVE the enjoyment of a lot of players, even ones who are already satisfied, especially the "historical simulators" or still allowed to simulate their vision. In such a case the only people that would be ticked off are the Frag's who seem to only be happy when IMPOSING their ideals on others.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I only want to make sure we all understand what messing with production and upgrades really means. It means we are willing and agree to suspend adherance to contraints the designer abstracted into the game.

Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.

Now the designer to abstract this in a simple manner limits the size of the factories or number of groups that will fly this aircraft.

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Now we change the system. We have turned the production of that aircraft into fantasy.

In order to restore the designers intent. (It's his game it should reflect his notions)
We need to define exactly what raw materials are used to produce any given item.
We need to define exactly where these raw materials are produced.
We need to define exactly where the material stocks are at any moment
We need to allow for enemy action to target specfic material stockpiles at land targets.


Now the game would be super realistic and players would have absolute freedom (except they still could not produce items that required the "bottleneck" resource beyond what they could harvest and transport.

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But the designers should spend the first few years of working on a game putting their intent down where it can be accessed and only then following apporval by all prospective buyers should they begin actual coding.

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It simply does not make sense to allow a player to fiddle with some things in an a-historical fashion and not other things. Allow one player to do ANYTHING non-historical and you are done with any notion of an "historical simulation" in the way some are portraying that concept here.

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

We got our poll, why keep arguing the point?

Alot of us have already made our pros/cons known. Let this go, we got our answer. Maybe after the bug squash.

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And there it is. It is funny that Frag is fighting tooth and nail against something thats being asked to be put on a toggel. The game is a "what if" generator and the more what ifs a person can select to be tossed in the chances are more people can be happy with the game and it DOESNT AFFECT how other people play the game.

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...Not become a builder game. Either you trust the designers or you don't.

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Operational Planning requires the planner to make plans based on what he has. What the enemy has.

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What he can do and what the enemy can do. No where does there exist room for wishfull thinking or changing the capabilty of units to satisfy the planner.

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You know from the start you will have x number of Oscar and x number of Frank. Make your plans according to that and stop daydreaming.

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What have *you* contributed to WitP apart from you lip? What makes you better then them or more deserving? There are people who have been here for years putting forth feature requests that make the game as a whole better for everyone.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What have *you* contributed to WitP apart from you lip?

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes you better then them or more deserving?

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
There are people who have been here for years putting forth feature requests that make the game as a whole better for everyone.

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How do I know that, again, on Dec 7, 1941? Oh...I forgot....20x20 hindsight.....

8/16/2004 5:45:38 PM

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

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How do I know that, again, on Dec 7, 1941? Oh...I forgot....20x20 hindsight.....

8/16/2004 5:45:38 PM

Hi, I don't argue just for the sake of arguing. Your running Japan fron Day one. you can see the reinforcement schedule. You know when a group enters training and what it will be flying. You don't need 20/20 hindsight if your eyes are open during the game.

Do you concur that Japan will fight phase 1 with what she has at start and this is aircraft you'd like to be able to dispose of as soon as possible?

The better aircraft do not begin to arrive before the Allies achive equality in numbers and begin working on quality. The desire for better aircraft is simply the desire to prolong this period. I understand this. In practice I find I have enough of the better types to met my operational demands. The older types are still usefull. But it would simplify matters if all my equipment was better then what I will encounter.

Have you checked to see if this is even feasable?(replacing older models with newer ones)
How far into the game are you that you are ready to begin upgrades but are prevented by the game limits on upgrade paths? Have you calculated the cost? (supply is consumed equal to the load cost of the aircraft. Every factory converted costs supply at the moment of conversion and 1k per point per turn to repair.
Or is this debate simply "I'm winning so well that I can convert 1600 aircraft when ever I like." (If thats the case you hardly need converting)

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Either you trust the designers or you don't.

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So a Japanese player who figures out how to produce more Franks can't actually use more Franks. The sole reward for successful game-play and for mastering a fairly complex model of resources and production is more Franks in the replacement pool.

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Hi Building more Franks does allow you to use more Franks. By maintaining your Frank pool the groups flying it can remain in combat longer. The problem was never and will never be having aircraft. It's having trained pilots.

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Japan does not have the production EVER to produce what it needs. You as the player controlling Japan must choose what tou sacrifice to get what you want. It is not about getting it all. Anyone who has done any number crunching knows simply that there is not enough oil in the game to keep Japan running. Japan starts with a huge stockpile that lasts a while then is 100% dependant on shipping oil back home. Her industry is completely bound to imports. She will NEVER again see the production levels seen in Dec '41.

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Every change to a design that works needs other changes. The more freedom allowed the more acurate the model has to be or fantasy sets in. Was it really as simple as Japan only needing to build 1000 more tank factories? I think in WITP I could pay for such expansion. and haveit running by mid 1942. Should I based on this then be allowed to form Armor Divisions ? (I'd build only the best tanks) The current system would allow it except for the silly restrction preventing me from forming any ground unit at all. I'm stuck with the historic arrivals and we all know these reflect the needs of the Japanese in WWII not what I might need in my game. If I could build 50 armor division I would have complete control of my production and would invade the Soviet Union via way of India.

OK some people only want to change 1 or 2 groups from time to time. And why should I care if another player wants to approach Moscow from the South? Because every change carries influence into the game. The space on my harddrive is now used to support someones masturbation fantasy about winning WWII as Japan via the Path of world domination. Gone is all connection to the game designed by 2by3. There are enough of those out there that they don't need to place there mittens on my one good war game.
I want players to play Gary Grigsby Keith Bors Mike Woods Joel Billings and Matrix Games War in the Pacific . Not some nonsense about a player becoming God in Japan and having unrestricted abililty to do what could not be done by the God Japan already had leading them. I still like being Japan. I still think I can win. (Sometimes) against humans. At any rate I'll have a lot of fun trying and I won't post AAR about losing because I was stuck with Oscar on the map and Frank in the pool.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Can someone please explain to me what exactly is their problem with Japanese production.

You feed in oil and resource.
produce heavy industry points
use these to produce other items.

It will never produce enough items to off set the Allied production advantage.
It requires minor tweeking from time to time to continue supporting existing units and providing for the introduction of the new units.
It is not an instant response system. (There was one post where the poster complained new land units did not arrive at 100 percent. Are land combat units created over night at 100 percent?) Players seem to want Japanese pilots to arrive trained in numbers to allow excessive loss so they can conduct operations without fear while ignoring that portion of planning that dictates you perserve your force. Players appear to want to be able to produce only those aircraft they think worthy rather then using what the Japanese thought good enough. By including production they think they are no longer an Operational commnader but the Japanese arms Minister. Production is included as a target for Allied Operational planning. Japanese Operational Level planning is to provide the means for the industry in the first phase and defend it there after. It's detail is to add depth to both sides Operational conduct of the war not to supplant this. I think players are misunderstanding this. The intent is not to be "a game within a game" I can see where production might be confusing or disappointing if you move your focus from operations to war production managment.
As Japan plan for what you industry will support. Counter enemy efforts directed against it. As the Allies you know the ultimate objective is to have B-29 in range of Home Islands.
The whole game on the surface is rather simple. I only see problems if you try to use it for something else. It is an OPERATIONAL level game based on WWII in the Pacific. Not an economic model of that contest. (That is why the Allied production is so limited. It was not a target of Japanese Operations.) Because the Japanese system was the primary target it was required to have more detail. I'm sorry I am unable to verbalize this concept. I think this is where the root of all the discontent and misunderstanding lies.

As for 2by3 and Matrix not addressing this I can only say we all have short memories. Nothing here is new and it has been covered many times. Well before the release of the game this was a major topic of discussion. Had industry/production been anything else I would have posted detailed coverage of my treatment of it in AAR. I believe in more then 1 AAR I covered Japanese Phase 1 Operations in detail as to their impact on my production (explained why I conducted some Operations and excluded other possible paths) I don't want to claim responsiblty for the present system but during testing I focused on it. As such it was my feedback that produced it. So any problems can prehaps be laid on me. My concern was not to change the production system but to test that it worked according to design. I feel it does. Prehaps it could be explained better. (I'd begin the treatment with "Don't expect miracles"

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ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew. If anyone in your camp ever actually answered a question honestly i would probably just keel over and die.

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except for one thing. I still for the life of me can't fathom why the Japanese player is given so much control over the production model if he's ultimately unable to benefit from any of the labor he puts into it.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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ORIGINAL: Mogami
Can you post a screen shot of your large unused pools of Frank and all the healthy Oscar groups waiting upgrade? I mean has this lack of freedom actually hurt you in a game?