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RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 10:52:48 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Guys this is a great discussion that was probably a long time coming, but let's keep it all above the belt to maintain its usefulness.

My thoughts:

I believe Matrix is making a best effort to do all the right things, as quickly as possible, to get games out. Rarely will customers (outsiders) grasp the hidden difficulties/messes/expenses in "making sausage", or shipping quality games.

I believe Matrix should charge whatever they need to stay in business and complete in our capitalistic, market driven system.

I congratulate Matrix on moving toward direct download and away from retail.

I would encourage Matrix to charge out each component separately (with discounts for combos); ie. $xx to direct download, $yy for boxed version, $zz for CD only.

I would also encourage Matrix to consider creating more physical components- maps, charts, photos, manuals, reference/research material to sell as part of a "deluxe" edition. This potentially could help keep the price of the direct download only as low as possible.

The goal here is to offer a "bare bones" edition that is as affordable as possible, but offering a lot more to many of us who can afford to indulge our hobby to the max.

Just my $.02s.

Thanks for wonderful games you've created; hoping for many more...

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Post #: 61
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 10:58:51 PM   
Hartford688

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


I would also encourage Matrix to consider creating more physical components- maps, charts, photos, manuals, reference/research material to sell as part of a "deluxe" edition. This potentially could help keep the price of the direct download only as low as possible.

The goal here is to offer a "bare bones" edition that is as affordable as possible, but offering a lot more to many of us who can afford to indulge our hobby to the max.



Good idea. I'd like good maps and high quality manual on hard copy. The Cafepress/Kinkos printing does not (I think) work for Europe, and shipping from US on Cafepress WitP maps is brutal. Deluxe sets from your worldwide warehouses (have these been scrapped with DD?) would be great.

< Message edited by Hartford688 -- 9/16/2004 10:06:33 PM >

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 62
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:09:48 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

This is all a bit out of hand, no? Every time a launch is announced, everyone wants it out 6 minutes later.




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Post #: 63
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:18:17 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Short memory Mark? there was no communication that it would take over a week after origins to get the dd going , and then it was lots of poeple in the witp forum complaining about all the vat stuff , inability to order etc...

Days after origin, get real...
to me that is two days max... and if you knew you had to do all this with DR at once, why was it not set up in advance, all exceipt the actual files...
As a loyal customer your attitude and surprise amaze me, but then again there are those who lean towards funtionality and those that lean towards client/customer service...
I always thought MG was the later, but I guess I was in error and will adjust my expectation in the future.


Well, you might want to grant me my right to vent of too.

Everytime we release a game some people take the "to me that is two days max" for granted. We never have given a streetdate for any of our recent released products. We allways say we expect it in this week on that day. Why? Because you never know what problems might surface, and if it´s only a broken keyboard that prohibit the CEO from typing "Go, green light!" and on top of the because everytime a few people jump up the walls when it is not there the minute "we promised".

I can very well understand that, apart from making games I´m a gamer to. And I also have games on my list I can hardly wait for.


We lean towards customer/client service, I guess there is only few things here that can make you doubt that. And that is exactly why we THIS time want to make sure everything is working as we expect it from Digital River.

It´s real fun to read all the guessing and assuming when you actually know what´s up behind the curtain.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 9/17/2004 4:19:55 AM >

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Post #: 64
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:30:00 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Marc,
Maybe if you read everything I wrote.. hum.. it is somewhat scattered over several posts.. my bitch isn't with you, mg or even this decision..
It is with the level of communication.. I would have prefered to have a notice on Monday like;"we are looking at later in the week for the Bin release" I do not care what the reasones are frankly... and I do not mean to troll this to death

So,
take my comments for what they are, I am dissappointed mildly at the choice to do all these item in one group, instead of getting the dd oput the door. I am very dissappointed at the level of communication.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 65
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:41:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Freeboy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
It is with the level of communication.. I would have prefered to have a notice on Monday like;"we are looking at later in the week for the Bin release" I do not care what the reasones are frankly... and I do not mean to troll this to death
take my comments for what they are, I am dissappointed mildly at the choice to do all these item in one group, instead of getting the dd oput the door. I am very dissappointed at the level of communication.


Did you notice the press release posted on the front page and in the announcements forum? From the first paragraph:

quote:

Matrix Games and Strategic Studies Group (www.ssg.com.au) are pleased to announce that Battles In Normandy™ has officially “Gone Gold” and is due for worldwide release the week of September 13th. Interested wargamers will be able to purchase Battles In Normandy directly through the Matrix Games online store at www.matrixgames.com.


Regards,

-Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 66
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:44:24 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		The time estimate was Eastern, but it remains an estimate. Still working to move this ahead as quickly as possible to completion. A few key areas were given the green light today, but one major function still needs to be finalized and checked.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 67
RE: ANY Clue - 9/16/2004 11:50:56 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Marc,
Maybe if you read everything I wrote.. hum.. it is somewhat scattered over several posts.. my bitch isn't with you, mg or even this decision..
It is with the level of communication.. I would have prefered to have a notice on Monday like;"we are looking at later in the week for the Bin release" I do not care what the reasones are frankly... and I do not mean to troll this to death

So,
take my comments for what they are, I am dissappointed mildly at the choice to do all these item in one group, instead of getting the dd oput the door. I am very dissappointed at the level of communication.


I can send it you via PM next time.

You would not have to be dissapointed if you would read our press releases (aka notifications) in this forums and on our main website. I do not know what you read into " the week of September 13th" but for me it´s a margin that includes Sept. 13th - 18th , if you take a normal work week.

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Marc von Martial
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Post #: 68
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 12:33:32 AM   
2gaulle

 

Posts: 466
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline
quote:

You would not have to be dissapointed if you would read our press releases (aka notifications) in this forums and on our main website. I do not know what you read into " the week of September 13th" but for me it´s a margin that includes Sept. 13th - 18th , if you take a normal work week.


like for price, you are always on border. Fridays 5PM is realy the limit. Freeboy is true your communication are not very good.
don't know why but I could buy your product but less what you write.

By the way, remember also than on run5 forum specialy the realease of BIN is a "question of days" since at least July....

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 69
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 1:51:38 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		I think Matrix is under the impression, that those who want to order the CD/box, want the box mailed the day the order is placed.

Some of us are happy, when we pay for the download AND simultaneously order the box, for the box to arrive many weeks later.

-

< Message edited by Joe 98 -- 9/17/2004 9:55:42 AM >

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Post #: 70
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 1:51:53 AM   
trcanberra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/30/2004
From: Canberra, ACT
Status: offline 		Hi Guys

Thanks for all of the extra information, and I'm sure there will be a lot of very happy gamers when this is finally released (problem-free ).

I have bought Final Fantasy XI while I have been waiting (and playing some more WitP) so a few more days will not matter now. I have been buying SSG games since my Commodore 64 days so probably been a bit more impatient than I might have otherwise (hope they remake their War in Russia game next).

Cheers

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 71
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 2:05:35 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		2gaulle,

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle
like for price, you are always on border. Fridays 5PM is realy the limit. Freeboy is true your communication are not very good. don't know why but I could buy your product but less what you write.


There are some things that are entirely within our control and other things that aren't. We said the "week of" because we've become wiser in expecting these last minute issues. As I've said before, our goal is to release this week and we're working to make sure that happens.

quote:

By the way, remember also than on run5 forum specialy the realease of BIN is a "question of days" since at least July....


Well, the gold master was only finished last week, so what you were hearing in July was what they thought was realistic at the time, just as now that it's in our hands you are hearing what we believe to be realistic. Production is less variable in many ways than development, so I hope we will be able to release tomorrow. If not, we'll keep working every day to get it done and ready for sale.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 72
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 2:20:01 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

.....we'll keep working every day to get it done and ready for sale.....




Eric, well done, but don't work over the weekend. It will leave you stale for future projects.

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Post #: 73
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 2:24:25 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

.....we'll keep working every day to get it done and ready for sale.....




Eric, well done, but don't work over the weekend. It will leave you stale for future projects.
True, there is no point! If it's not out by 5PM EST tommorow we'll all turn into pumpkins

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Post #: 74
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 2:44:27 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

.....we'll keep working every day to get it done and ready for sale.....




Eric, well done, but don't work over the weekend. It will leave you stale for future projects.


The game industry is more or less a 24/7 job, has always been so will not be different in the future. Even if you don´t actually sit in front of the screen it affects your daily live.

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Post #: 75
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 2:48:55 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

You would not have to be dissapointed if you would read our press releases (aka notifications) in this forums and on our main website. I do not know what you read into " the week of September 13th" but for me it´s a margin that includes Sept. 13th - 18th , if you take a normal work week.


like for price, you are always on border. Fridays 5PM is realy the limit. Freeboy is true your communication are not very good.
don't know why but I could buy your product but less what you write.

By the way, remember also than on run5 forum specialy the realease of BIN is a "question of days" since at least July....


Run5, while beeing an excellent community website ( big time), is not an official herald of Matrix Games.

Our press release stated when we expect BIN to be released, I fail to see what is bad communications there.

A price is way easier to set then a release date, best example, Halflife 2

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 9/17/2004 7:49:10 AM >

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Post #: 76
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 3:26:36 AM   
dosmil78

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/28/2004
Status: offline 		I think the obvious and summarized opinion is that many of us DD customers, which is probably most of us, are unhappy with the way BiN has been handled up to this point. Maybe Matrix should take this as it may, and realize next time this won't happen if they have their stuff together.

You know, people wouldn't be complaining if this had been taken care of correctly in the first place.

I am a bit surprised by your attitude in response to the numerous complaints here as well as at the RUN5 forum. I work as management in service, and the way you are dealing with potential customers is rather unbecoming of a business. Do you think that just because you don't work in service that you're customers don't matter?

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 77
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 3:34:30 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		dosmil78,

We are communicating honestly the reason for delays and trying to explain what's going on behind the scenes. In our experience, it's better to be up front than to keep things hidden. This is not an issue where we made a decision this Monday and said "we could release it now but let's just hold on" - the store changes have been a long time coming and both we and SSG want them in place for Battles in Normandy. It's also not easy to just ditch some of the changes and go with a subset, we have our online store folks working on it as one project. It should make the release better and smoother for everyone.

In what way has our conduct been unbecoming?

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to dosmil78)
Post #: 78
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 3:42:24 AM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		As I stated earlier, I am on the fence about purchasing BIN. That is because of the price only. The release date has nothing to do with it. I firmly believe that Matrix and SSG want this product on the streets as fast as possible. The delays are not because of them being mean. it is because they want all the I's dotted and T's crossed before it's "Showtime". I can appreciate that with these guys. The popular thing to do, would to get it out the door, run it up the flagpole and see how it flies.

Give them a break... These guys are playing it straight and not being rushed into a bad decision regardless of the pressure from us.

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 79
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 4:53:59 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

are unhappy with the way BiN has been handled up to this point. Maybe Matrix should take this as it may, and realize next time this won't happen if they have their stuff together.


I really would like to know what´s makes people unhappy the way BIN has been handled. SSG has been here and on Run5 to answer questions regarding the game, it´s development and pricing. Matrix has been here to answer the same questions. I think we and SSG have been very honest about almost everything regarding this release. We make sure that the release goes smooth with upgraded features (requested by you customers) in our webstore. The store changes and the release of BIN are "unfortunatly" in the same time frame. For obvious reasons we simply cannot say release now and upgrade store later or the other way around. It HAS to be done in one batch. Contrary to popular believe the "delay" (that actually isn´t one) is not because of some boxart or stuff like that. Just so you know, Steve Ford and me finished the boxart like 6 - 8 weeks ago.

I really fail to see where we have been unhonest or were some customers get the impression from the we dont´t have "our stuff together". I´m almost feeling like Gabe Newell after this thread

Maybe for the next release we will invite an independet observer and notary selected by popular vote .....

I´m typing this at 0400am on a friday morning in Germany after a 20 hours workday, that maybe rings a bell.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 9/17/2004 10:24:22 AM >

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Post #: 80
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 5:33:01 AM   
mbMike

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 4/26/2004
From: Kaiserslautern, Germany
Status: offline 		I would guess impatience plays a huge role in one's unhappiness.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 81
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 6:46:04 AM   
Ralph1961


Posts: 184
Joined: 10/4/2001
Status: offline 		I have the solution to the "BIN Matrix" so called fiasco; underpromise and overdeliver. I realize that the folks at SSG and Matrix have done everything in their power to get a superior product to market but there was one HUGE mistake; NEVER push yourself with a timeline. If you think that you can deliver the goods by say Sept.17th then go ahead and sandbag a couple of weeks so that when you get the product to market early you are a hero.
Now for my price tirade. Does anyone remeber Avalon Hill? It seems that most wargamers are a bunch of tightwads. If you do not agree with the price of BIN or any other game you do not have to buy it but please keep your bitching to yourself. Everyone seems to have the " Wal-Mart" syndrome around here. Keep in mind that we are talking about a somewhat niche product. The guys at SSG have been working on the DBWW2 series for many years and even gave away TAO2 for FREE to show that they were indeed devoted to producing great games.
Lets all calm down and savor the moment and enjoy a great game with hopefully many more in the series to come. My guess for the teaser screenshot of the next game in the DBWW2 series is.......STALINGRAD.
Ralph Harper

(in reply to mbMike)
Post #: 82
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 9:31:17 AM   
Larac

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 9/5/2004
Status: offline 		Mark,

From looking at this as an outsider, I would say this is the issue.

Matrix has said it is going to a DownLoad Sales model, with the option of paper items being shipped.

So when the bell is rung that the program is Gold, in a DL Model it would appear for sale in a very short amount of time.

Most retail games go from Gold to Shelf in 7-12 days, as few as 5 in really in demand products.

This gave the PERCEPTION that the Matrix DL model would be faster.

Though as it has worked out it is not, and Matrix never said it woould be, but again PERCEPTION is more powerful than logic or truth. Our political system showes this quite well.

Dealing with Perception issues will always be harder to do than dealing with reality.

Good luck in the future,
Remember how Scotty in Star Trek gave repair times, (Est time needed *2) + 30% more.


Lee

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 83
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 10:15:35 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline 		Interesting point about perceptions. It's my perception that no "paper items" will be shipped at all, the manual will be an electronic PDF document in all versions and the shipping options are a) a CD of the download and b) a CD of the download in a box/case. If my perception is correct, anyone buying the "boxed" version and expecting a printed manual may be disappointed. I guess all will be clear when it's ready for purchase.

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Post #: 84
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 10:19:53 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The game industry is more or less a 24/7 job, has always been so will not be different in the future. Even if you don´t actually sit in front of the screen it affects your daily live.



I am a game player - and I it affects me that way too !

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Post #: 85
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 11:00:41 AM   
bostonrpgmania


Posts: 271
Joined: 9/14/2003
Status: offline 		@ thehellpetrol

I am planning to buy one or two HPS games
I am thinking of one SB and one operational games
Can you please recommend two?
(I am now living in Canada. To avoid extra cost (tarif etc) I am planning to buy through military hobbies
They have 39 selections of HPS games. If you could recommend two out of this that would be highly appreciated
I have played Korun Pocket, HTTR, Rising Sun, CM and CMBB for your information
Thank you in advance

(in reply to SlapBone)
Post #: 86
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 12:13:10 PM   
JSS

 

Posts: 781
Joined: 10/15/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania

...I am thinking of one SB and one operational games
Can you please recommend two?


My recommendation to you is wait a few more hours (days?) and get BIN.

For operational wargames BIN is as good as it gets. The game is AWESOME and flawless.

...I'll repeat the offer I made on Run5 in these forums: I've got a case of GOOD beer for the first person to find a bug I've missed. They just don't exist

JSS

(in reply to bostonrpgmania)
Post #: 87
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 12:15:05 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Marc,

I've followed this BIN thread and it reads remarkedy similar to a Witp thread I started awhile ago about when the latest version would be available for dd instead of the original and 2 patches. I guess the bottomline as I can see is a total disconnect between the supplier (you) and and the customer (us) as to what level of activity is involved going from
"Going Gold" to "Going dd".

An outsider perception would be that the business/contract is in place between Matrix and DR prior to you guys ready to provide product. So the very simplistic viewpoint is that
SSG sends you guys the files/CD and you shoot it over to DR. Now it's up to DR to
have everything ready to mash the go button. Now this is the simplistic view, which is more often than not, wrong.

Just what are the basic steps that Matrix needs to perform from "going gold" to "going dd" ? Apparently, there is significantly more involved than meets the eye.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 88
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 12:25:26 PM   
mendipbus

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/5/2004
Status: offline 		Hopefully this should be for DD tonight approx 10pm GMT, which would be cool as I can play tommorow morning.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 89
RE: ANY Clue - 9/17/2004 5:08:48 PM   
"Joss" Osborne

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Just so you know, Steve Ford and me finished the boxart like 6 - 8 weeks ago.

I really fail to see where we have been unhonest or were some customers get the impression from the we dont´t have "our stuff together". I´m almost feeling like Gabe Newell after this thread



Marc,

No, you and Matrix and SSG have not been dishonest. I think the parties involved have done a fabulous job in communicating what was going to happen and when it was going to happen.

The problem is we don't like to hear bad news especially so close to release.

That said, I would point out that this is poor project management. If I were to delay a software release where I work because we were going to add a new method of deployment at the eleventh hour or a method of deployment that was planned for really wasn't tested and ready I'd be out of a job (after the guy who caused the delay). This new method of delivery should have been setup and tested before any announcement to the public of release. I agree with you and Erik that there are things within a release week that you might encounter that come out of the blue - that's why you have the weeks time window. This window is not for "new stuff".

Within any company there are strong suits and weaknesses. It's inevitable and natural. I happen to think the artwork that Matrix produces and the manuals they compile are top rate. The wargames you produce second to none. Definitely strong points. Project management, however, is definitely a weakpoint. Hopefully, Matrix will review their project management procedures and take a lesson from what's happened here.

You guys do too great a job in all other areas to let this problem become this evident, and impact your business.


Now, where the heck is BiN! I've got my plastic all warmed up!



Go Bin!

_____________________________

Regards,

Joe "Joss" Osborne

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 90
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