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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/13/2004 3:57:23 PM   
moses

 

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Once it is clear that all SRA divisions are in russia counterattacks will begin in Malyasia and China. Troops cannot be shifted back quickly for counterattack, it will take months.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/13/2004 4:26:19 PM   
Hirohito

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Once it is clear that all SRA divisions are in russia counterattacks will begin in Malyasia and China. Troops cannot be shifted back quickly for counterattack, it will take months.



The troops that have taken Okha, the lone base on the bering straight, and Vladisvostok and surrounding area can be moved back by ship almost immediately.

Hirohito

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Post #: 152
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/13/2004 4:30:39 PM   
Hirohito

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Hirohito,

Are you sure you playe the game? I have taken many UNDEFENDED oil/resource bases and have had them devestated. Miri is almost always banged up. Same for Sorong. Why not go take a look at moses' AAR he has going. He is getting butchered.

But you will just say he is not doing it right. Your theory on Japan's army air force being able to defeat the Russian's air force is a farce. The LaGG-3 and Mig's are a match for even the Zero's. Those a/c gave the Germans fits in Europe.

Have you looked at the Russian units? They are not understrength Chinese units, they are almost even in strength to the Japanese divisions.

IF I can not move transports at will in and out of the SRA against you, prove it. Want my email address so you can send the turn? You have tried to discount every argument we tell you, but most of the people who are telling you that it more than likely not work are Japanese players. The heck with a surrogate player for you, get to a computer and PROVE it to me. Make me a believer in your dominance. I will gladly hand you your head on a platter.



I'm going to new york on thanksgiving, I will get my computer then, then I will shut you people up.

But, I'm not going to let anyone know which strategy they face. I'll take on four opponents using four different strategies, you won't know which one you face.

Let's make it interesting. Say $1 per VP?

Hirohito

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 153
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/13/2004 5:03:13 PM   
2ndACR


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You will have to get there fast, I am waiting on orders for Iraq.

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Post #: 154
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/13/2004 5:26:03 PM   
moses

 

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Ohka can be taken with a NLF. It is irrelevant. AFTER you've taken Vladastok sure then you can load troops. It will take about a month to load and then cruise to Malaya. Its not immediate.

I have plenty of warning. It will take till Jan to get all SRA divisions into position. The three divisions in Malaya, the unit in Hanoi, and the Hong Kong division can't all be loaded on turn one. The Chinese divisions take time to get into place.

My invasion of malaya is low risk. If you send a bunch of divisions back to cut me off and destroy me thats OK. Now your russian operation fails and you've only destroyed my Singapore army a month or two behind scheduale.

In China and Malaya it is not neccessary for me to take great chunks of territory. I just want to inflict casualties, burn supplies, and force you to send a few units back.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 155
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 12:39:01 AM   
WiTP_Dude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

3.An invasion using 18 Divisions would of course be faster then my AAR. I suspect you could take B within a week. In this case I would take the northern 2/3 of my army and retreat into siberia. The rest of eastern russia would be lost but it would still take a month of so to mop it up. If Japan wants to chase me into Siberia now that will be interesting. Its a long way to go even if completely unopposed. Siberia gets 3000 supply per turn so as the russian gets deeper into the interiot his supply situation improves. Even if Japan wins there it will take monthsa and then more months to walk back.


This is what I was thinking. Fight for a while and then do a slow withdraw. Make sure you keep the Russian force intact and they can live off that supply in the interior. The Japanese then have to send tons of divisions to destroy that. Barring that, they'll have to keep a lot of divisions on garrison duty to keep watch over this force.

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Post #: 156
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 1:13:26 AM   
moses

 

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The only problem is if you're forced to retreat from B I suspect you will be sent south. (To bad you can't control the retreat path). In that case I'm not sure you can get your force north and you may have to fight to the death. For this reason I think the Russian should send all forces in the Imam area and even some from Vladastok immediately to B to make sure this spot doesn't fall. Its better to be defeated in Vladastok and let Japan fight his way north.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 5:54:09 AM   
Jon_Hal

 

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So I opened up my PBEN game and find I am the unwitting subject for this strategy.. Curse you Grraven! considering what has been said in this thread by many of the Matrix Veterans what are some good counter Strategies to hold the Japanese? Is it worth trying to hold Vlad? any suggestions to this rather suprised Allied player?

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Post #: 158
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 6:58:18 AM   
sveint


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quote:

I am the unwitting subject for this strategy


Congratulations, you should win the war by 1943.

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Post #: 159
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 7:57:00 AM   
Hirohito

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

quote:

I am the unwitting subject for this strategy


Congratulations, you should win the war by 1943.



You show how little you know about this game if you think that. If the japanese player makes sure to cut off the russian forces from each other and from supply which is quite easy.

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Post #: 160
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 12:37:53 PM   
2ndACR


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon_Hal

So I opened up my PBEN game and find I am the unwitting subject for this strategy.. Curse you Grraven! considering what has been said in this thread by many of the Matrix Veterans what are some good counter Strategies to hold the Japanese? Is it worth trying to hold Vlad? any suggestions to this rather suprised Allied player?


What is the date? Makes a difference. If it is from the start, OOOOOHHHHHH you are going to have fun. Need info.

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Post #: 161
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 3:53:08 PM   
Jon_Hal

 

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he opened his offensive on Feb 22nd. Major troop deplyment North and west of Vladivastok, 6 units west Imam, 11 units west of Blago... ?He hasn't made inroads into Java. Singapore hangs by a thread. he has rangoon, Kendari and a almost manila. China still seems to have a lot of Japanese in it though.

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Post #: 162
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 4:09:18 PM   
moses

 

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As long as you hold in the north you will be OK. When in doubt send forces to the north. If you lose Vladastok it is no big deal. The only way Japan wins is if he destroyes your army. This can only be done by encircling your army from the north. So hold there.

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Post #: 163
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 4:23:55 PM   
Cav Trooper


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Question, if this strategy kicks off, and I've seen statements that Japan has about 6 months of supply and oil, how does this affect that and it's impact on production? Would this not burn through reserves, supply, oil, Pilot reserves, and equipment in the production pools? Would this actually hurt the Japanese economy later on, more than what it could possibly gain????

Have not seen comments on this aspect of the strategy...

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Post #: 164
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 4:26:15 PM   
2ndACR


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You need to get a count on his units. I believe there are 15 divisions in Manchuria. If he is only using the Manchuria units, I do not think he can win as long as you stay in supply from the north.
Bombardments are great for getting a count of divisions. If you find 25 divisions in Russia, those units came from somewhere. China would be my bet. Mass your forces. Find out how many divisions he has in Burma. If it is only 1, you can hurt him there. Hopefully you have been growing all those Indian units from day 1.

Split a couple Chinese units and move them to the Japanese controlled bases in China. Bombard those bases to get a unit count. I slow my delays way down when I am counting units. Keeps the screen up longer so I have time to count and write them down. He can not be strong every where.

Since Singapore and Manila are still yours, do the same get a unit count. Russian divisions are almost as strong as Japanese divisions. You will have air superiority until he brings in Zeros, and even then it is a close thing. Start B17 raids on every resource base you can reach. Bomb every HI base. Bomb him to dust. You should have close to 80 or more B17's available for this. Reduce Kendari to dust, that one hurts. Everything you hit costs supply to rebuild, lessens the amount of supply he gets until he repairs it. It is a cascade effect. B17's out of Vlad will really hurt Japan. Same for the Russian bombers.

Make him bleed red everywhere. Bomb the oil/resource bases in Japan proper. Make him have to ship it in. The Japanese army fighters are worthless against B17's.

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 165
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 4:30:24 PM   
2ndACR


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 3rd ACR Tanker

Question, if this strategy kicks off, and I've seen statements that Japan has about 6 months of supply and oil, how does this affect that and it's impact on production? Would this not burn through reserves, supply, oil, Pilot reserves, and equipment in the production pools? Would this actually hurt the Japanese economy later on, more than what it could possibly gain????

Have not seen comments on this aspect of the strategy...


If the allied player begins a scorched earth policy from the air, it will most definatly cripple the economy of Japan. Just bomb every res/oil base in Japan proper from the Russian air bases. Any res/oil base that is within reach of allied air power should be targeted. You will take losses, but the allied losses are easier to replace. It is much harder for Japan to replace anything. Pound the crud out of every res/oil base in reach that Japan holds. And he can reach almost all of them at this time.

(in reply to Cav Trooper)
Post #: 166
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/14/2004 5:04:46 PM   
moses

 

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The only possible advantage to Japan in this strategy is if he can free up the entire Kwatang army for operations elsewhere. He has to destroy this army or else the war will end soon.

Japans starting forces are not enough to take out russia. 10 divisions from China and SRA and 3 or 4 zero squadrens are probably the minimum needed to succeed. Assume that Japan has brought at least these forces to russia and is going to defeat you there eventually. If Japan has not brought these added forces you will win without hardly trying.

Bombard with thr russians at every opportunity!!

Use your air force and target any location not protected by zero's. If Japan did not send any zero's you will have a field day.

Your best scenario is that after a 2 or 3 month hard fight in Russia your forces are driven into siberia where they can continue resistance forever. So get units from Imam and Vladastok north so that B does not fall quickly. Again if Japan is fighting with his starting forces you'll know it soon enough and will be able tohurt Japan bad.

Attack in China. Get big stacks of units in a few of his cities and bombard every turn. Do not be afraid of counterattacks. He cannot attack in both China and Russia.

In Malaysia addvance at least to Bankok if possible. By the time you get there you should have a good count on how many SRA divisions were sent to Russia. Based on this decide either to take saigon/ Cameron Bay or to bomb these locations to dust.

Be careful in the Pacific. Japan still has navel supremacy and this is not effected by the adventure in russia. Use your fleet defensively and just try and not let him take key oil/resouse locations with his small combat units. Be more aggresive about deploying austrailian and dutch units to forward locations in the DEI.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/17/2004 12:01:40 PM   
ctid98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hirohito


It is not implausable historically. The Japanese were bound by their pact with Hitler to go to war with russia when they entered the war.

Hirohito


I believe this was only the case if Russia had attacked Germany, not the other way around.

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Post #: 168
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/17/2004 1:58:00 PM   
moses

 

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Its not historically implausable that Japan would attack or even win in Russia. What is implausable is that they attack, totally annihilate the russian army in two months with minimal casualties and then shift forces to china in a few weeks to launch a massive offensive there.

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Post #: 169
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/17/2004 4:35:56 PM   
dereck


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The pact German and Japan signed was actually a defensive pact and required each other to come to the other's assistance only in the case of one or the other being ATTACKED.

That's why to this day historians are totally baffled as to why Hitler declared war on the United States (thereby solving Roosevelt's dilemma on that matter) when he wasn't bound to at all. After all, when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union the Japanese didn't also attack the Soviets because they weren't bound to.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/19/2004 9:11:21 PM   
PeteG662


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I am conducting an operation against Russia as a test but also fighting everywhere at once to see how fast/long the Japanese can handle the 'blitzkrieg' in the Pacific before they are totally spent. I did not divert any divisions from China or elsewhere, just letting Kwangtung with some of those Cavalry folks attack in a 4 prong pincer.

I am pushing forward in China and maintaining minimal operations in the South and Central Pacific while conducting operations in DEI. I will not go for India but rather hunker down in the area near Imphal/Kohima. I will let you know how it progresses.

Note this is a variation on Hirohito's strategy.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/19/2004 10:43:05 PM   
BlackVoid


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The strategy is not gamey at all and some implications are not considered here. And in the game engine neither.

If Japan attacks the Soviets in 1941 Dec, they may be in for a tough fight. However if they keep enough forces occupied, Germany may win in the east and cause the collapse of Russia. This is not modelled. Don't forget that Russia has sued for peace in WW1. Remember also, that the 1941 winter counteratack was made by troops withdrawn from Siberia.

Of course launching a campaign in the winter for any other reason then diversion is not realistic.
But why not SRA and China first, then Soviets?

As for cutting of Java from supply: with Kendari, Timor and Sumatra in Japanese hands, there is a chance that it can work. The only problem is if that you take Palembang it will be bombed to dust by B-17s from Java. And the allies can always use one ship convoys to sneak supply in. They can pretty much tolerate the losses too. If half the AKs can land that is good for them. Once in port thay can have a strong CAP.

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Post #: 172
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/20/2004 1:14:47 AM   
2ndACR


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You can not "cut off Java from supply". Both Batvia and Sojber (sp) have resources that also produce supply every turn. I believe both of them produce 1200 supply per day at 600 each.

So no starving them out.

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/20/2004 5:51:08 AM   
Central Blue

 

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BlackVoid....

wouldn't Russian divisions committed to their Western front already have been withdrawn by 12-7-1941?

Interesting backgrounder on Russian-Japanese struggle in 19349-40 and effect of Nazi-Soviet Pact here: http://historynet.com/wwii/blred_star_rising_sun/index1.html

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/20/2004 6:05:54 PM   
Cav Trooper


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After reading the whole article, I came to a couple of conclusions:

1: As we all know, WITP land combat is really out of synch with actual operations, compared to this account. I further acknowledge that this is a very intensely debated subject and will not comment any further.

2: Russian Airpower in the article is a very effective force for the Japanese to contend with, although not a monster which can not be overcome, it is nonetheless a force mulitplier to contend with.

3: The Russian Army, at the time, was more of a factor to contend with, actually surpassing the Japanese Army capabilities in some respects.

4: Confirms the reluctance of the Japanese High Command to seriously consider a North First Option, which actually probably contributed to the PH attack decision in more ways than one. Therefore, I see the result of this basically forcing the Japanese hand to move south vs. north in no uncertain terms.

Now, for Hirohito's strategy:

1. Based upon this, admittingly upon one article without other references, it seems to me that the time needed to conclude his operations is very very generous, massively underestimated and totally skewed out of all proportions compared to actual conditions of the time. Factor in the "defense in depth", leadership on the Russian side, and overall lack of equal leadership on the Japanese side, I do not see the end state occuring as rapidly as Hirohito claims (in historical terms not game) with the lack of deterimental effects to the Japanese Army forces committed that he claims in his scenario. I believe the effect(s) on the Japanese forces would be atleast a 60% reduction in combat capability for atleast 6 months to a year, just to replace manpower, equpiment and unit cohesiveness.

2. The Russian supply is even more tenious than we assumed, and to some degree so is the Japanese. With this in mind I believe, IMHO, both sides ability to wage sustained high intensity broad front offensive combat operations would be extremely difficult if not impossible over the long term, for strategic gains. So, in game terms, a longer lead up and supply positioning time would be required before large scale operations commence for the Japanese, not the quick move and attack concept as proposed.

3. The Japanese would also have to move in a larger Air component than originally indicated, thereby, in my honest opinion, have a larger detrimental effect on future Air operations, post campaign than assumed. Plus I believe that it would severely tax the production ability of Japan to make up the losses to the degree that it would actually make Japan's Air assets weaker in the long run post 43 than assumed, thereby weakening the defence even more than it will be already.

So, in conclusion, Hirohito's strategy, while appearing to be sound in theory, I believe that it is a reciepe for disaster in the long run, and the return will be less than what was invested, thereby creating a deficit instead of a surplus.

comments???

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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/20/2004 10:12:15 PM   
IKerensky

 

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Only page 4 on this topic and I soon need to post some points about this strategy.

In game it can be considered... especially for someone with gaming experience of strategic wargames like World In Flammes. In fact it really sound like a World In Flames strategy adapted to WITP.

The main trouble there is that it supposed that by Early 42, soviet union have no strategical reserves to be send to the east, a quite common misconception that only start to get righted by modern historian writers. The re-discovers of the battle of Rzeh by example have put a brand new look on real situation of russian military forces in 1942. The idea that it was just a house a card ready to collapse is plain wrong.

What would happen if Japan declares war in Russia in 1942 ? Moscow offensives will still be stopped, but the reserves that where keeped for the early '42 counter offensives, or at least part of them will be send back to Siberia, probabvly with Zhukov too. Will Russia be weakeaned in the West ? perhaps yes, probably not as thoses forces got badly mauled by the Germans Spring offensive anyway thus basically not changing the strenght ratio. More aggrievating for Japan will be that if Zhukov make is late '42 attack in Japan and not in front of Moscow they will be confronted by a very large part of Russian army and overwhelmed (mainly by superior armors ). Remember that Uranus ( Stalingrad ) only used the Fifth stronger russian army, a rather small force.

Can the loss of Vladivostok and Eastern Siberia really impede Russia ? The loss of the Eastern allied land lease, probably. But it never was the main way and can be easily replaced... if ever Russia entirely lose his coastside. Siberia is vast and the legged japanese army will probably never reach the real estate there ( mainly layed in the Ourals area ). In fact if Russia need to play defensively and cut is line, backing at Irkust railhead, the concentrated front will be really hard to crush.

Mandchurian borders are very long, and Japan will have great trouble garrisonning them...

Allied land troups in Russia. This I cant comment on, probably more involvement than historically. I am quite sure that at least one division of volunteer could be mustered, maybe not.

VVS. The main point forgotten. VVS is strong in 1942. I cannot see any outdated or really inferior plane in it. Sure tactics are still weak and pilot experience is hard to build against elite german pilots in superior airframe. But Soviet bombers are numerous and strong, same for their improved fighter frames : LaGG3+, Mig 3+, YaK... Japanese planes will lack the punch to go through it. The main point is one of the biggest asset in Russian VVS armory and one it never manage to put to bear against Germany is his wonderfull strategic air bombers. Thoses can quickly be send to the east front and really make life hard on Japanese Industry... Especially in cooperation with american.

Now all this chitchat is interesting in an abstract way, but in game ? I dont know , I am not experimented enough to tell. But my guts feeling is that the developpers haven't consider this in designing the Russian forces and thus they probably cant adequatly retort to the Japanese onslaught, thus this can be a doable gambit. Now pushing the russian out of the war is one thing... Getting this as an advantage to win the war is an entirely other subject....

(in reply to Hirohito)
Post #: 176
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/20/2004 10:18:08 PM   
IKerensky

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

The pact German and Japan signed was actually a defensive pact and required each other to come to the other's assistance only in the case of one or the other being ATTACKED.

That's why to this day historians are totally baffled as to why Hitler declared war on the United States (thereby solving Roosevelt's dilemma on that matter) when he wasn't bound to at all. After all, when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union the Japanese didn't also attack the Soviets because they weren't bound to.


Quick reply of main reason:

1- He was a mad man and thought Russia will be soon out of play.
2- He got some free weeks of hunting for the subs around East coast before convoy system be installed.
3- He was certain that the now in war USA ( together with CW ) will soon turn on him too, and he rather be free hand against him rather than face an allies invasion in early 1942, and massive US flagged weapon supply to CW.
4- He thought this gesture will bring a replicate DOW from Japan to USSR. He lose big time.
5- What other thing could he possibly have done ?

Just food for thought.

(in reply to dereck)
Post #: 177
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/22/2004 5:37:35 AM   
ladner

 

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I was intrigued by this thread and created a mod, Taming the Bear, as a consequence. It is not easy to invade Russia, even having large numbers of troops from China and with supplies prepositioned it is not an easy proposition.

The Red Airforce rips the IJA Airforce to shreds, Nates are complete death traps. Have not gotten far enough into it to see if/how easy the cutting of supply works in starving out the Russians.

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Post #: 178
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/22/2004 7:26:13 PM   
PeteG662


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First after action on my test ve the Russian AI!!!!!

The Russians have counterattacked in the center of the peninsula and are threatening to tear off the northern half of the Kwantung Army. Slow progress from the south up the peninsula towards Vlad. In the west the cavalry and other units are spreading out capturing all the other bases. The Russian Air Force is decimating everything I send at it including valuable Zeros! Night bombing attacks on the airfields are not very effective as the ones and twos it gets versus the ops losses are a wash.

The battle continues.....

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 179
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/22/2004 7:37:54 PM   
2ndACR


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

First after action on my test ve the Russian AI!!!!!

The Russians have counterattacked in the center of the peninsula and are threatening to tear off the northern half of the Kwantung Army. Slow progress from the south up the peninsula towards Vlad. In the west the cavalry and other units are spreading out capturing all the other bases. The Russian Air Force is decimating everything I send at it including valuable Zeros! Night bombing attacks on the airfields are not very effective as the ones and twos it gets versus the ops losses are a wash.

The battle continues.....


Did you send about 13 extra divisions? If not, you are screwed. The Russian air force is brutally effective.

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 180
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