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Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 6:25:40 AM   
Tanaka


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In Brady style fashion:

Can you tell me who these pilots are???




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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 8:25:47 AM   
m10bob


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Nishazawa,2nd row,middle..Ota(rear left),Sakai,(rear right.)
Saw this pic 20 years ago so if I'm wrong,I'll be wrong in a big way!..
This is Tainan group at Lae..

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 8:37:38 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Nishazawa,2nd row,middle..Ota(rear left),Sakai,(rear right.)
Saw this pic 20 years ago so if I'm wrong,I'll be wrong in a big way!..
This is Tainan group at Lae..


Correctly guessed members of the famous Lae Air Wing!!!

These five members of the Lae Wing accounted for at least 223 kills by wars end, true figures are probably higher.

but.... you named a few of the right names but guessed their wrong places in the pic....

Saburo Sakai you placed correctly....

Can anyone else get the rest correctly???

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/3/2005 1:38:08 AM >


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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 1:37:45 PM   
Honda


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Any of these guys Honda? You see, the thing is I put Saburo as my avatar after an unsuccesful hunt for Honda's pic. Sure could use one...

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 8:37:20 PM   
wild_Willie2


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just checking my avatar..

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 9:05:33 PM   
Jaws_slith


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http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

352 alone

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/3/2005 10:23:32 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

Any of these guys Honda? You see, the thing is I put Saburo as my avatar after an unsuccesful hunt for Honda's pic. Sure could use one...


no honda here

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/4/2005 12:50:20 AM   
rogueusmc


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Nissan and Ford here...

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/4/2005 2:10:40 AM   
Honda


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He's elusive...Can't find him anywhre.

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/4/2005 7:20:54 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

He's elusive...Can't find him anywhre.


ill see if i can find him

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/4/2005 10:10:20 AM   
CynicAl


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The fun thing about Japanese victory claims is that, unlike the air services of every other nation I'm aware of, it doesn't seem that anyone in Japan was even trying to verify those claims at the time. It doesn't even appear to have occurred to anyone. The deliberate destruction of records by the Japanese at war's end makes it difficult to go back and verify individual claims against actual Allied losses, but what records did survive don't give any reason to believe that Japanese fighter pilots were any more immune to overclaiming than any other fighter pilots in the world.

The true figures are probably lower.

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/4/2005 11:54:28 PM   
Marc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

He's elusive...Can't find him anywhre.







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IJN Chokai

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:01:32 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CynicAl

The fun thing about Japanese victory claims is that, unlike the air services of every other nation I'm aware of, it doesn't seem that anyone in Japan was even trying to verify those claims at the time. It doesn't even appear to have occurred to anyone. The deliberate destruction of records by the Japanese at war's end makes it difficult to go back and verify individual claims against actual Allied losses, but what records did survive don't give any reason to believe that Japanese fighter pilots were any more immune to overclaiming than any other fighter pilots in the world.

The true figures are probably lower.


Nope they have already been lowered:

You will find the same estimates most everywhere you look. These are estimates after lowering thus why many consider them higher.

You will find very similiar numbers on this very well researched webpage and most other sources. Check it out:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ww2jap.htm

Also: http://www.frenkenstein.com/ww2/japan/Japan.htm

Japanese Aces:

Unlike their western bretheren, Japanese aviators did not leave much of
a paper trail regarding their aerial combat claims. Most western nations
had set up some form of "official" recognition, whether it be as part of
the record keeping for the unit, or with an official bureau to register
claims.
In the China and Nomonhan Wars, and the early part of World War Two, various
units did record individual claims, but this was largely discontinued in the
later years of World War Two, usually with official directives prohibiting
the practice of recognizing individual claims.
But, like fighter pilots elsewhere, many pilots did keep personal scores in
such things like diaries and logs.
Thus, when it comes to creating a list of Japanese aces, information
regarding victories is incomplete, and in many cases speculative and based on
personal versus official records.
Many scholars have recognized the problem with trying to validate claims, and
many have compensated by adjusting total claims to lower values by using a
percentage, which is often very arbitrary, and sometimes can be as much as 50
percent.


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/4/2005 5:07:19 PM >


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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:06:50 AM   
Marc


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Ota should be front left.
Nishizawa front right?!

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:08:19 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

Ota should be front left.
Nishizawa front right?!


Correct!!!

Now who are the last two up top???

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:16:24 AM   
Marc


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top left Miyazaki?

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:30:36 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

top left Miyazaki?


nope

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:50:39 AM   
Marc


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OK. I'm only guessing.
Top middle Endo.

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:52:51 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

OK. I'm only guessing.
Top middle Endo.


guess again

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:55:36 AM   
Marc


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Junichi Sasai

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IJN Chokai

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 12:57:20 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

Junichi Sasai


is which one???

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 1:01:11 AM   
Marc


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middle

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IJN Chokai

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 1:08:20 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle


correct!!!

and the last guy???

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/4/2005 7:32:25 PM >


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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 10:50:09 PM   
Marc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle


correct!!!

and the last guy???


What about Sadao Uehara?

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IJN Chokai

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Post #: 24
RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 10:55:16 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle


correct!!!

and the last guy???


What about Sadao Uehara?


incorrect

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Post #: 25
RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 11:19:06 PM   
testarossa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaws43

http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

352 alone


During the Battle of Britain, the official kill returns up to October 7, 1940 showed the Luftwaffe claimed 3058 British aircraft against 915 actually lost an exaggeration of 3.34x; by contrast, the RAF claimed 2698 against 1733 Luftwaffe actually lost (1.56x exaggeration).

Doesn't matter? Well it was enough for the Luftwaffe to believe they had a victory kill ratio of 1.76:1 when they had suffered a DEFEAT of 1:1.89.

The RAF had the ability to look at evidence on the ground, but a significant problem for the Germans was they did NOT have an Intelligence Officer at squadron command to verify the pilots claims immediately after combat, so the Luft squadron command simply passed on his pilots claims to Gruppen intelligence. It is difficult to be accurate in a crowded battle with multiple nits on the same plane - even the RAF had to caution eight pilots for claiming the same German bomber on the same day - but all pilots tend to overclaim and if you dont have someone checking their claims you get absurd scores. Which can give you the wrong picture and cost you the Battle!

Hartmann fought Russians (abysmal quality of pilots) but I think his claims still have to be adjusted.

Off topic: I don’t know why in WitP Russians get 55 for replacements, it should be something around 40 (Russian pilots had very short training programs from 1month in 1941 to 5-6 in 1945).

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/5/2005 11:43:07 PM   
Marc


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Takatsuka???

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/6/2005 12:03:00 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

Takatsuka???


YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!

These five members of the Lae Wing accounted for at least 223 kills by wars end, true figures are probably higher:

Name / Kills

Takatsuka / 13
Sasai / 27
Ota / 34
Sakai / 62
Nishizawa / 87




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< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/5/2005 5:04:10 PM >


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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/6/2005 12:11:51 AM   
pertsajakilu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle


correct!!!

and the last guy???


From Saburo Sakais Samurai:
Top row from left:
Takatsuka, Sasai and Sakai
On their knees:
Ota and Nishizawara

From Finnish edition:

Werner Södeström osakeyhtiön kirjapainossa 1958

Pertsajakilu

PS. It's first quality condition, found it in antiqvarium. Price was 13€.
Hopefully I will find Pierre Clostermans Grand Circus.

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RE: Name these Pilots!!! - 1/6/2005 12:44:17 AM   
pertsajakilu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa


Hartmann fought Russians (abysmal quality of pilots) but I think his claims still have to be adjusted.



Common bullshit after first two or three year of war. Many ( German ) top aces in eastern fron were shot down several times by Russian pilots but managed to survive ( or not ).

Russian front aerial war was totally different form ETO. They were low level aerial fights without massive aerial formations. Air war over Europe was meat grinder when eastern front was much smaller aerial fights ( like WW1 dogfights ) and there were much higher propablity to survive. Helmut Lipfert who had over 200 victories told that he had never survived in west because it was war of masses. There were all the time somebody after you who you coudn't see because there were too much planes in air same time. He had a high recard of Soviet pilots and was shot himself down five times by Russians.

I don't doubt that Allied pilots could have achieved same kind o f records agains Germans if there have been enough targets and fewer Allied pilots ( and tour of duty of whole war ).

Pertsajakilu

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