Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I still think the point I am tryin to make is being missed. You can send all your TF out to sea but you could not get close to enemy bases because the turn 1 movement is actually several prior days compressed into 1. If you went to land on Kendari on turn 1 turn 1 would actually be several days before Dec 7. It would begin with Allied bombers attacking the TF when it was still 7 hexes from Kendari. As a result all your surprise attacks would not be surprise attacks. Everyone from one side of the map to the other would have been reacting for several days before Dec 7th. This is what I am speaking about.
To make it work the way it would have been in RL you have to stop all your TF no closer then 4 hexes from enemy base because by the time they got that close they would be under attack. This only has to be true for 1 Japanese TF because time stops (and the other TF's movement) the instant the first Japanese TF is detected.

Because the game has to have a turn 1 and can't go backwards you have to stay 4 hexes out. Now the time space continuum is fixed.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I still think the point I am tryin to make is being missed

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ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

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What is the reasoning behind thinking the allies are totally organized to respond.. but the side that actually planned for the war is not able to coordinate?

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ORIGINAL: moses

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ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

No here's where you're wrong. The PH raid does not assume that the U.S. will do nothing. It is a fully escorted attack. They were prepared for the possibility that they might be detected and had the force to prevent a disaster. They hoped and planned for complete surprise as well but they were not risking the easy destruction of their fleet.

Sending lightly escorted transports into enemy airspace is a pure gamble. The allies do not need a coordinated responce to destroy the whole force. They just need a couple combat vessels to get there and you have catastrophy.

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ORIGINAL: mlees

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What is the reasoning behind thinking the allies are totally organized to respond.. but the side that actually planned for the war is not able to coordinate?

The main reason that the Allies were not organised, IRL, was because the Japanese did not have their invasion forces at sea several days before PH. As Mogami has said, all of the PI/SRA invasion forces did not leave port until after PH, and after the Japanese established air supremacy. You say that, as the head honcho of the Japanese military, you should be allowed to take the risk of launching surprise invasions. OK fine, but with the turn 1 surprise toggle "on", there IS NO RISK. You teleport to the beaches WITH NO RISK. True, IRL the Jap commander would have thought he was taking a risk, but as a player, YOU know there is none. At least, not on turn 1.

If there were sightings of several groups heading for targets in the PI/SRA, the Allies would have responded better to an overt enemy build up. IMO. The Allies have been off and on military alerts for several months before PH. They are not sitting around having clam bakes and playing with unit mascots. War was coming, THAT was no surprise. Exactly when was the question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Right. I see and agree with both Mogami and Mr. Frag's take on turn 1 (house) rules.

What won't sink into my thick little skull is Dutchgy2000 take on the turn 1 surprise (hard coded toggle) rules. A bit slanted towards the Japanese, IMO. His arguments don't make sense to me, but then again, I am thick, sometimes.

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ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

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ORIGINAL: moses

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

No here's where you're wrong. The PH raid does not assume that the U.S. will do nothing. It is a fully escorted attack. They were prepared for the possibility that they might be detected and had the force to prevent a disaster. They hoped and planned for complete surprise as well but they were not risking the easy destruction of their fleet.

Sending lightly escorted transports into enemy airspace is a pure gamble. The allies do not need a coordinated responce to destroy the whole force. They just need a couple combat vessels to get there and you have catastrophy.

Ok.. i see you wanna get technical.. so let´s be. Count the number of available warships you have available to intercept.. then count the number of warships available for escort. So yes one way around it would be to escort fleets of landingaparties with the heavies and they would be noticed... or spread everything out so that while you are busy chalking up kills the others land (i totally aggree that would be noticed also). None of which practical in game or irl terms... but on a small scale not impossible if someone is willing to risk it. Probem is with the rules it is all or nothing... i can land all over the place unopposed... or i can´t land anywhere i am not supposed to because thats ´gamey´ Makes ya think how they ever pulled of the original landings anyway and not got massacred by those ´highly organized defences´.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Count the number of available warships you have available to intercept

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

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ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

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ORIGINAL: moses

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

No here's where you're wrong. The PH raid does not assume that the U.S. will do nothing. It is a fully escorted attack. They were prepared for the possibility that they might be detected and had the force to prevent a disaster. They hoped and planned for complete surprise as well but they were not risking the easy destruction of their fleet.

Sending lightly escorted transports into enemy airspace is a pure gamble. The allies do not need a coordinated responce to destroy the whole force. They just need a couple combat vessels to get there and you have catastrophy.

Ok.. i see you wanna get technical.. so let´s be. Count the number of available warships you have available to intercept.. then count the number of warships available for escort. So yes one way around it would be to escort fleets of landingaparties with the heavies and they would be noticed... or spread everything out so that while you are busy chalking up kills the others land (i totally aggree that would be noticed also). None of which practical in game or irl terms... but on a small scale not impossible if someone is willing to risk it. Probem is with the rules it is all or nothing... i can land all over the place unopposed... or i can´t land anywhere i am not supposed to because thats ´gamey´ Makes ya think how they ever pulled of the original landings anyway and not got massacred by those ´highly organized defences´.

Hi, The number and timing of Japanese landings was a product of the available escort ships. (As opposed to number of transports)
The IJN first escorted the transports to malaya. Then it ran back and escorted landings on Luzon.
The IJN fought a number of surface actions defending Japanese trasnports. And if you recall the IJN sank more Japanese transports then Allied surface ships did.

When Perth and Houston attacked the landings on Borneo at Suda strait Mogami and Fubuki sank 6 Japanese transports. (Almost every torpedo they fired hit something.)
Perth and Houston didn't hit a single Japanese transport. Both were sank after being hit with long lance (and a dutch DD too I think)
There were other actions but no Japanese landing occured without both aircover and surface protection. The standard procedure was for paras to land to capture airfields while landings occured so that Japanese air could move forward.

I'd be embarreassed if I was caught sending unescorted transports out of my air cover.
The japanese do not need to do this. Once they take Kendari and Jolo they can run little TF all over in side them. Just keep adding airfields and enlarging the area you don't have to worry about.
Taking 1 size 4 airfield with a logical force results in a circle 21 hexes in all directions of air control. (15 for torpedo attacks) And LRCAP in 8 hexes in all directions.

So teleporting on turn 1 does not increase the speed Japan takes areas. It just exploits something that everyone knows should not be exploited. It is not being more clever then anyone.

By the way I don't pay attention to who these things get addressed to most of the time.
When I respond to a particular person I am either the next poster or I quote them but I have been up all night again. and vision...getting.....blurryyyyyyyyyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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Count the number of available warships you have available to intercept

It doesn't work that way ...

Each and every single warship that exists within steaming range is a landing destroyed unless you have assigned enough protection to negate it.

The USN are capable of a TF of 1 CA, 2 CL, and 13 DD

The Brit's are capable of a TF of 2 BB, 4 CL, and 9 DD

The Dutch are capable of a TF of 3 CL & 7 DD

This is where you are thinking exploit turn #1 speed. "I can get the transports there before he can move these ships so I don't need escorts". *That* is pure exploitation. If you do not have a force capable of surviving against these 3 groups, you are gaming the system.

You will clearly see that all the *planned* landing have forces capable of dealing with these 3 forces should they want to get in the way.

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lol... this whole tread started out with me agreeing... so yes i agree with all those points! What i don´t agree with is assuming there will be no suprise anywhere.

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as if i would know that there is 90% risk would sometimes (very rarely) not stop any irl operation because the 10% pay off might be worth it.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't understand your logic. It is like you move two pieces in a game of chess on turn 1 and I say "put 1 back" and you say "fine why bother playing"

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your 3 Tf still going to show up and prevent any landing?

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ORIGINAL: mlees

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lol... this whole tread started out with me agreeing... so yes i agree with all those points! What i don´t agree with is assuming there will be no suprise anywhere.

OK. The turn 1 surprise hardcoded effects means that the Japanese will achieve surprise everywhere. That is not possible IRL with invasions planned for south of the PI. Your latest argument, seems to me, to be: "Well the game let's me do it, so it should be OK."
Ok. I can't blame you for using the game system as best you can, but be aware that the turn 1 surprise toggle was designed mainly to help the designers to simulate the PH raid, IMO, not unopposed invasions all over the western Pacific on turn 1.

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as if i would know that there is 90% risk would sometimes (very rarely) not stop any irl operation because the 10% pay off might be worth it.

If you think that a 10% success chance in "risky" operations is a long shot worth taking, I don't know what to say. IRL, those types of risky operations were done only because the commanders involved had NO other choice, other than total capitulation. The successfull commanders always shamelessly stacked the deck in their favor.

I guess it's just a matter of playing style. I'm more conservative, and I'm guessing your not. Play the game how you want, it won't get mad.

I'm not hot under the collar, just confused.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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your 3 Tf still going to show up and prevent any landing?

No, they are not going to prevent any landing. You are thinking tatically. Think strategically.

You *plan* your landings as Japan against what you expect could be there.

These 3 forces *could* be there so you have to plan accordingly.

You can't plan to ship 200,000 men to a location and say ... "sorry guys, you don't need a DD escort because I think the Allies are all wimps and they wouldn't dare sail there."

You look at what *could* happen and say ... hmm, I think I need to have a surface group in the area that can handle this group if they happen to show up until the transports have unloaded, then the are free for other duties.

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ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't understand your logic. It is like you move two pieces in a game of chess on turn 1 and I say "put 1 back" and you say "fine why bother playing"

NSounds like you are saying ´hey you can´t move your pawn 2 places forward (as white) as an opening move because if i had been allowed to move first i would have covered that field and there is no way you would have gone there then.´ Maybe i would, maybe i wouldn´t.. point is i would have had a choise.. you just say i can´t whatever my reasoning behind it.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, And it does not matter if 100 percent of Japanese TF are not detected.
If 1 out of 20 TF were detected it blows everything because the war starts right there. The other 19 undetected TF are now in enemy waters and the enemy is not asleep. They are still undetected but the enemy is moving.
This cannot happen of course if you teleport but it is why the Japanese did not cross the line. They could not teleport.
If I had teleport Transports I would use them. I know I don't have them. It appears if I exploit the system that I have teleporting transports.

The reason we call them teleporting is because they move from where they start to their targets without any interference of the intervening distance. Poof they are unloading.
Now whether they were detected or not they still could not do this. They are in a hex while you make your orders. 24 hours later they are unloading on Kendari or Jpohnson Island or Canton Island. that is teleporting.
The reason you do this is because even though you know there are 2 USN CV steaming range of Johnson Island before you move is you know the USN CV cannot move because you won't let them. So you take Johnson Island for free dump in a few Betty's and own that portion of the Pacific.
If you allowed Allied orders and did not teleport. You also would likely not even load the unit onto the transport.

If this is what stops you then you are correct. You should only play against the AI.

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ORIGINAL: moses

Certain things just aren't done. You don't ever put yourself in a position where you are completly defenceless unless you have no other option. Maybe you can land 10 transports at Numea without any escort but no commander would do this. The thought of a whole division being sunk by a single destroyer rules it out.

Now in the game you are free to do these things if you want. But its just not right that you can get there with no chance of detection or no chance of interception.