RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls)

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Lock ‘n Load: Heroes of Stalingrad >> RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls)

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 2:23:13 AM

Magua

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Benpark-

I tend to agree with the other guys here in that I don't think incorporating a "must spot first" rule for units adjacent to bocage will change things that much. I'm doing it myself.

I think being able to see units adjacent to hedges and walls makes sense. I think it's appropriate to assume that units looking over the top of these features are likely to be seen, where with bocage, the tangle of trees and brush make it easy for those adjacent to see without being seen.

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 31

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 2:32:10 AM

Adam Parker

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From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

That seems wrong. The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it. Will this majorly screw up any other rules as a "house rule"?

And yeah, now that the game is out-where the heck did the guy who wrote the rules go!

Hi Ben (and all). I'm like you in still waiting for the game but I'm going to break a big rule of mine here in commenting on something I don't own because I think there are fires billowing here for no need - and I do fully intend to own this game.

Mark Walker writes in post 4468 on the LnL Consimworld thread:

quote:

the rules and TEC are correct. If you are adjacent to hedge, wall, or bocage you are "automatically" spotted if the spotting unit has clear LOS to you and you are in clear/open terrain.

NB the clear terrain proviso. Hanne's then shows how clear the case is covering adjacent units with bocage between them in at post 4469:

quote:

let's have a step by step look what the Player Aid says for this point:
First of all the basic: Bocage is a 1 level hindrance with a +2 TEM, that blocks LOS. Units adjacent to bocage hex side can be seen, and need not be spotted. Units adjacent to the bocage that receive fire across the bocage hex side receive the TM, but outgoing fire from units adjacent to the bocage that crosses the bocage hex side receives a -1 modifier

Why is a unit adjacent to bocage spotted? Because (going on the demo rules I have) a unit is "automatically spotted" if adjacent.

The only thing my demo rules do not cover in this regard is how hindrances operate. But going on the above, I have faith that their rules will be very straight forward.

So guys imho, this is a non-issue as much as it was when Panzer Campaigns Normandy was released. These are design decisions - however, the rules behind them are perfectly clear.

Cheers,

Adam.

(in reply to benpark)

Post #: 32

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 3:01:32 AM

benpark

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Thanks, guys. I'm curious about how an ambush will work, then(again, my copy is due to arrive soon from NWS, so I don't have the rules yet). Particularly in terms of what role the hedgerows play in cover and concelement.

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 33

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 4:49:02 PM

Hannes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

Why is a unit adjacent to bocage spotted? Because (going on the demo rules I have) a unit is "automatically spotted" if adjacent.

Maybe I read it wrong - but don't mix: a unit adjacent to a unit (auto-spot) with a unit adjacent to bocage (i.e. a hex with bocage on one/more hexisde) :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark
Particularly in terms of what role the hedgerows play in cover and concelement.

They give a +2 TEM, what is pretty good. Forest gives you a +2 for example. Thinking of this: don't you think that a spotting attempt for a unit behind bocage makes it a little too 'powerful'? Then it gives as much cover as dense woods do. hm <thinking>

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 34

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 7:00:38 PM

Borther Omar

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I've read the bocage notes a million times. I've come to the conslusion that they work this way:

LOS is blocked from crossing Bocage feature...that is, spotting is NOT possible through bocage except when two enemy units are adjacent.

Brother Omar

_____________________________

-Tell 'em Omar back.

(in reply to Hannes)

Post #: 35

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 8:04:32 PM

Hannes

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For Spotting:
Units that didn't take any action what causes attention (like firing, moving, being in melee) and in a degrading or blocking terrain - they need to be spotted before someone can harm them.

For that "adjacent" thing: If one of your units is good order and adjacent to such an unit, it automatically spots it.

For Bocage:
Hm, if noone mind, I crosspost from somewhere else where I tried to help more then I confuse :)

O.K. - let's have a step by step look what the Player Aid says for this point:

First of all the basic: Bocage is a 1 level hindrance with a +2 TEM, that blocks LOS.

Units adjacent to bocage hex side can be seen, and need not be spotted.
Units adjacent to the bocage that receive fire across the bocage hex side receive the TM, but outgoing fire from units adjacent to the bocage that crosses the bocage hex side receives a -1 modifier.[...] - then some specifications.

However - this tells: My unit sit in a hex, where bocage is on hexsides of it. So far so good. If someone wants to fire at my unit it need not be spotted. Good? If he does so, my unit receives the TM. If my unit wants to fire and fires through the hexside with the bocage, it has to deal with a -1 modifier.
Whether my unit has to spot or not depends - also here - on the target situation!

Blocks LOS traced through, or along, the bocage hex side from the same elevation to the same elevation. Doesn’t block LOS to a hex in which the bocage forms a hex side.

Just says - when my LOS crosses a bocage image, the LOS is blocked in either way - exception: firer or target is in the hex where this bocage is on the hexside.

LOS IS blocked when traced along the bocage hex side.

This is a specialty. BTW: read the wall/hedge notes too. Same family - bocage is just a 'mod' of them.

Bocage does NOT cast a one hex shadow.

Why that note? Cause it is a 1 level hindrance [last para of 10.3]. 1 level hindrances cause normally a 1 hex shadow when firer-target are at different levels. But this bocage things are no 'in hex terrain' like houses, hills, tall grass, ... they are hexside terrain. So their shadow would be in 'their' hex. No, it isn't - so you can firefight in such sitautions.

(in reply to Borther Omar)

Post #: 36

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/19/2005 10:23:00 PM

Pirke

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Sorry to step in so late but I was also strugling with this during my vacation.

I do understand that units spot eachother if adjecent, also in the case of a bocage hexside. But will both units also receive the TM form the bocage/wall/hedge when firing at eachother?

And what if in Magua's picture there is a unit D 1 hex north and 1 hex north/east of A. There will be a bocage hexside between A and D and this would block LOS between A and B? In case of a wall/hedge there will be LOS. That is how I interpreted it.

Also on the spotting rules. What I find a bid strange is that each turn units have to be spotted again allthough they could just been fired on during the last impulse of the previous turn?

Pirke.

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 37

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 2:50:08 AM

Magua

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So it seems the rule runs counter to logic. That is that B can see A and does not need to spot him.

At the very least, Bocage = Trees + Brush. Units in trees and brush must be spotted. So why when you put these two terrain features together, and add a hefty earth berm does the whole thing become transparent? It sounds whacky to me. It doesn't make sense to me.

But more importantly, why has not one single member of the dev team stepped in here to clear this whole thing up? This discussion has been going on for a week now. This is all very discouraging.

< Message edited by Magua -- 9/20/2005 2:52:28 AM >

(in reply to Pirke)

Post #: 38

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 4:07:07 AM

crabe tambour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pirke

Also on the spotting rules. What I find a bid strange is that each turn units have to be spotted again allthough they could just been fired on during the last impulse of the previous turn?

Hi Pirke
My interpretation : unspotted doesn't mean only "unnoticed". It means also "in cover" or that you don't have a satisfying angle on it to fire. So a unit discovers itself when firing for example (marked "fire" = spotted), and retake cover just after that (remove "fire" marker during admin phase). It seems pretty realistic to me. It's why i like this spotting rules...

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/20/2005 5:19:43 AM >

(in reply to Pirke)

Post #: 39

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 5:03:45 AM

crabe tambour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua
At the very least, Bocage = Trees + Brush. Units in trees and brush must be spotted. So why when you put these two terrain features together, and add a hefty earth berm does the whole thing become transparent? It sounds whacky to me. It doesn't make sense to me.

Hi Magua. My 2p again. I don't know what would say one of the dev team, but here is my explanation :
Units in brush or trees need to be spotted but don't forget it is whole hexe full of trees or brush. Bocage is just a line
Bocage is a very irregular line, with holes sometimes, sometimes very large sometimes very thin. It can explains the transparent stuff. (my interpretation). Why not. It's a valuable designer's choice
(and don't forget that +2 TM, 4 MP, blocking LOS, are laregely enough to make of bocage a very problemous terrain)

Anyway, the rule is clear : no need to spot if in open terrain. I played it "wrong" (need to spot) intuitively (sorry if i disturbed tou with my previous answers).
Now i play it "correctly". And it doesn't change anything to the game, to the scenarios balance etc...

I can't even say wich I prefer, I don't care. So, do it as you prefer. It's your game. And if i meet you (or anybody) one day on Vassal, i will play bocage exactly as you want

. Time to play now !

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/20/2005 5:20:44 AM >

(in reply to Magua)

Post #: 40

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 1:34:43 PM

Magua

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You're right crabe. The +4 makes bocage very, very tough even without the need to spot. And I think your explanation is probably just what the dev team would say too. I would still like to hear the logic behind the whole thing from Mark or the team. You certainly didn't "disturb" me with your answers. In fact, because you and I saw this thing in the same way at first, I knew I wasn't completely nuts.

(in reply to crabe tambour)

Post #: 41

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 3:07:25 PM

yossarians

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I'd say that you could have the same problem with the idea that units in degrading terrain need to be spotted, but you can see straight through it to a unit that is in a clear hex one space away-no spotting necessary.

(in reply to Magua)

Post #: 42

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 3:46:01 PM

markhwalker

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quote:

The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it.

It does block LOS. Says so plainly on the TEC. Doesn't block it you're adjacent, nor should it. If it blocked LOS to adjacent units the game would be unplayable, I mean you could never shoot at a unit adjacent to a bocage hexside. That doesn't sound right, does it? I appreciate all te input, but I must say that you all seem to have confused yourselves. I see no problem with the bocage rules as written.

Best,
Mark

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 43

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/20/2005 6:54:05 PM

stevel40831

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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

quote:

The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it.

It does block LOS. Says so plainly on the TEC. Doesn't block it you're adjacent, nor should it. If it blocked LOS to adjacent units the game would be unplayable, I mean you could never shoot at a unit adjacent to a bocage hexside. That doesn't sound right, does it? I appreciate all te input, but I must say that you all seem to have confused yourselves. I see no problem with the bocage rules as written.

Best,
Mark

Mark,

Interesting how you can just stroll in here, slap us all around, and tell us to get back to gaming! Thanks, we needed that!

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 44

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/21/2005 3:20:06 AM

Magua

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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

quote:

The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it.

It does block LOS. Says so plainly on the TEC. Doesn't block it you're adjacent, nor should it. If it blocked LOS to adjacent units the game would be unplayable, I mean you could never shoot at a unit adjacent to a bocage hexside. That doesn't sound right, does it? I appreciate all te input, but I must say that you all seem to have confused yourselves. I see no problem with the bocage rules as written.

Best,
Mark

Excellent response. We're idiots.

Thanks Mark.

I'm sorry Mark. I disagree. I do not believe the rules are clearly written when it comes to hexside terrain. The fact that this thread has gone on for as long as it has, and that so many have posted should be the tip-off to that.

I think you misunderstand the question here. We are not talking about bocage making it impossible for two adjacent units, separated by bocage to see each other.

Once again, here's the example.

The question is, does B need to spot A before A can be attacked? Or, since A is in clear terrain, the bocage has no effect on B's ability to spot A, and A is clearly visible?

Now the rules imply that A is absolutely visible, i.e. B does not need to spot A. To me, this seems counterintuitive when I consider the nature of bocage and of the fighting in hedgerow country. In other words, a squad in brush needs to be spotted, but a squad behind bocage is fully exposed. That just doesn't sound right to me.

If left to my own devices, I would assume that A would need to be spotted by B, before A could be attacked, and that B would need to make a spotting roll as if A were in blocking terrain of 2 or less.

Or...is my head completely up my keester, and I'm missing the point entirely? That's been known to happen before.

Either way, they are your rules, and I wouldn't disrespect you by debating them. I just want to know how they work, and if possible the logic behind them.

Thanks.

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 45

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/21/2005 4:41:10 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua

Now the rules imply that A is absolutely visible... I would assume that A would need to be spotted by B, before A could be attacked... they are your rules, and I wouldn't disrespect you by debating them. I just want to know how they work, and if possible the logic behind them.

Magua I think from what Mark has posted here and at Consim - the rules don't "imply" at all - they are clear:

quote:

Mark W: At ConsimWorld

If you are adjacent to hedge, wall, or bocage you are "automatically" spotted if the spotting unit has clear LOS to you and you are in clear/open terrain.

Otherwise Bocage does completely block LOS.

As for logic - it's a design decision for playability. In reality we shouldn't even know that unit counter "A" is there but we do. Your unit "A" is in reality occupying open ground.

Imho, given your map example, I wouldn't consider it to be a typical bocage ambush situation. Give me an example where every 50 meter hex is surrounded by Bocage and then we get into the meaty situations of ambush, spotting and guile. Then the current rules would shine and the opp fire fly.

My .02 on the logic but the rules are clear.

Adam.

(in reply to Magua)

Post #: 46

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/21/2005 1:17:44 PM

markhwalker

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quote:

But more importantly, why has not one single member of the dev team stepped in here to clear this whole thing up? This discussion has been going on for a week now. This is all very discouraging.

Hey Pal,

Hannes is dev team, Crabe is Dev team. Just because there isn't a @matrixgames email (in fact no one at Matrix had anything to do with rule or scenario development), doesn't mean folks don't know what they aretalking about. Additionally we have all stepped in, on numerous occassions, in multiple areas. Did you check ConSimWorld or Lock 'n Load's home page? I try to get around, but don't make it to all the boards I'm monitoring.

I didn't mean to slap anyone around, but the rules ARE clear as written. Additionally, saying "it doesn't seem right" without a full knowledge of the rule book is really counterproductive.

As the rules state, spotting is status and hex driven, not hexside driven. If I changed the rule so that units behind bocage needed to be spotted the next question would be, why don't units behind walls, and then someone would ask why don't units behind hedges, and then why don't we need to spot units when we see them through two hexes of degrading terrain, and then how about one hex of degrading terrain, and then should you be able to spot Low Crawling units behind bush, and then twelve pages worth of rules later all the questions would be solved, and the game would be one step closer to ASL's 300-page rulebook, and not one whit better.

These are design decisions that I made, keeping in mind that although I want a game that plays realistically, I want --above all else-- a game that plays. Sometimes, the simpliest rule change --for example allowing the creation of half-squads or requiring units behind bocage to be spotted-- can led the design down a slippery slope.

As it now stands, bocage is a big help, and it does conceal units, but NOT if you are adjacent to it.

Best,

Mark

< Message edited by markhwalker -- 9/21/2005 1:20:49 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 47

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/21/2005 2:28:09 PM

Adam Parker

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From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

... and the game would be one step closer to ASL's 300-page rulebook, and not one whit better.

Yep. I started to re-read my ASL book this week and my favorite section is the nearly full page on what to do if you find a leader alone in a hex.

Hoping to have my LnL game by the weekend. Looking forward to those "counters that just fall out" without cut n' trimming.

ASL became so repetitive after a while. I think the activation, movement and fire restrictions of LnL will give a very fresh feel. I'm just a bundle of curiosity here Mark, so much I just have no idea of what's ahead.

Cheers,
Adam.

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 48

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/21/2005 9:03:21 PM

markhwalker

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quote:

ASL became so repetitive after a while. I think the activation, movement and fire restrictions of LnL will give a very fresh feel. I'm just a bundle of curiosity here Mark, so much I just have no idea of what's ahead.

Cool, Adam. I hope that you like it. Although I frequently hold ASL up as an example of what I DON'T want to do with LnL, it IS a landmark game, and truly a lot of fun to play... it's just hard to get your arms around the rules.

Best,

Mark

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 49

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/22/2005 2:58:22 AM

Magua

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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

quote:

But more importantly, why has not one single member of the dev team stepped in here to clear this whole thing up? This discussion has been going on for a week now. This is all very discouraging.

These are design decisions that I made, keeping in mind that although I want a game that plays realistically, I want --above all else-- a game that plays. Sometimes, the simpliest rule change --for example allowing the creation of half-squads or requiring units behind bocage to be spotted-- can led the design down a slippery slope.

As it now stands, bocage is a big help, and it does conceal units, but NOT if you are adjacent to it.

Best,

Mark

A "design decision" is good enough for me. And I too worry about the danger of an ASL slippery slope.

So, okay. I've got that down. To tell you the truth, after just a few plays, the routine of play becomes second nature. It's very logical and intuitive.

Gracias.

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 50

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/23/2005 4:24:48 PM

crabe tambour

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http://www.geocities.com/revenuo/bocagehellok.pdf
Hi. This is a PDF file for bocage example. It strictly follows the rules.
Currently playing "brothers in arms". Great scenario.

(in reply to Magua)

Post #: 51

RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/24/2005 12:04:44 AM

benpark

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I hope that further rules questions will be answered with a bit more civility. Some people are buying a LnL game for the first time, and would like to feel good about the folks they are supporting. I've had a hell of a time with my copy already, so a little goodwill by the dev. makes friends of people that will champion the system in the future(and buy expansions). Also, most people here don't know enough to check Consimworld and the LnL site, the game is published by Matrix, so cross posting here may be a good idea.

That said, I am very pleased with the game. Good, solid rules, fun and damn nice to look at.

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey

(in reply to crabe tambour)

Post #: 52