RE: Weather (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 7:34:07 PM)

6th and last in series.

Colombia has Storm, Equador has mostly Rain, and the Gulf of Panama has Rough Seas. The weather over desert hexes is tempered (reduced) so Rain becomes Fine.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/D96AC34147F1457FA133723AC730691A.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 7:44:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Rob finished a couple of variations for weather at sea. The reasoning here is that while there are 5 types of weather on land there are effectively only 3 types of weather at sea: Fine, Rough Seas (Rain & Snow) and Typhoons (Storm and Blizzard). To communicate that fact clearly the program shows 3 variations of all sea hexes. On land, the 4 inclement weather states are shown as overlays.

Here the Norwegian Sea has Rough Seas (Rain) while the North Sea has fine weather.


Well, I don't think I like that.

First, because Snow & Rain are not exactly the same in game terms at sea.
Rain allows invasions, Snow forbids them.
You can say that the invasions are on the coastal hexes, where the "real" weather can be seen, but not showing the difference at sea between rain & snow can be missleading for the player who wants to invade.

Second, because the rain graphic show here is not very beautifull to me. It seems like a new terrain, not a weather effect.

Third because I liked the rain / snow / storm / blizzard effects, even at sea. I know I was one of those who proposed the idea, but now that I see it, I am not convicted.
Why not cumulating the weather effect as it was with this new sea state ?

Fourth, because having 3 weather types at sea seems a too strong departure from WiF and its 5 weather types, even if some seems the same at sea.

This said, the typhoon graphic should have more than one pattern, so that the lightning bolt is not the same everywhere.



mlees -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 8:01:36 PM)

Convicted? wha'd you do?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 8:07:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Rob finished a couple of variations for weather at sea. The reasoning here is that while there are 5 types of weather on land there are effectively only 3 types of weather at sea: Fine, Rough Seas (Rain & Snow) and Typhoons (Storm and Blizzard). To communicate that fact clearly the program shows 3 variations of all sea hexes. On land, the 4 inclement weather states are shown as overlays.

Here the Norwegian Sea has Rough Seas (Rain) while the North Sea has fine weather.


Well, I don't think I like that.

First, because Snow & Rain are not exactly the same in game terms at sea.
Rain allows invasions, Snow forbids them.
You can say that the invasions are on the coastal hexes, where the "real" weather can be seen, but not showing the difference at sea between rain & snow can be missleading for the player who wants to invade.

Second, because the rain graphic show here is not very beautifull to me. It seems like a new terrain, not a weather effect.

Third because I liked the rain / snow / storm / blizzard effects, even at sea. I know I was one of those who proposed the idea, but now that I see it, I am not convicted.
Why not cumulating the weather effect as it was with this new sea state ?

Fourth, because having 3 weather types at sea seems a too strong departure from WiF and its 5 weather types, even if some seems the same at sea.

This said, the typhoon graphic should have more than one pattern, so that the lightning bolt is not the same everywhere.

Yes, I believe you first proposed this. But I am quite happy with them.

1 - No, they are the same at sea. It is the weather in the coastal hex alone that determines if an invasion is possible. Unless I am reading this rule wrong, the weather in the sea area could be Blizzard and an invasion would still be possible if the weather in the coastal hex is Fine or Rain. Indeed, showing the weather in the sea area could be misleading, since it is irrelevant for invasions.

2 - I doubt that it will be mistaken for a different terrain type. For one thing, it would only appear if the player has turned on displaying the weather. As a side note, a long time ago Rob and I considered using something similar to the rough seas bitmap for all sea terrain, but opted instead to stick with something similar to what is on the paper map.

3 - I find the weather overlays at sea to be too 'busy' and prefer the more muted version of the Rough Seas bitmap. When I got the variations from Rob, I first looked at combining the two (variation + overlay) but it was way too frantic/complex.

4 - This is not a departure from WIF but rather a clarification. You could rewrite RAW by inserting the terms Rough Seas and Typhoon where weather at sea is Rain/Snow and Storm/Blizzard and it would have no effect on what the rules mean.

5 - I thought about varying the typhoon graphic because the lightning bolt comes across as repetitous. But I am not so sure. Changing it could make it look like a different terrain/weather effect.

Other opinions? This is easy to modify so we can afford to get it right.



Froonp -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 8:18:48 PM)

What I would like to have, is the sound of the rain dropping when a hex of fine weather is selected, the sound of thunder when an hex of storm is selected, a sound of howling winds where there is blizzard, and the sound of silence where there is snow, and varying sounds in fine weather. Sounds of singing birds, sounds of cows, sound of distant artillery if an hex near frontlines is selected.

But I would really want to hear the rain drop in rain weather. The rain graphic is so evocative of real rain, that the sound is missing. [:D]



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 8:32:33 PM)

Woah!

PLEASE don't rely on sound.  I usually try to turn off ambient sounds when playing a game.  Weather would probably be an ambient sound.  As an option, I have no problem with it as long as I can turn it off.

I, for one, like the graphics I see now pretty well.  I would replace the Lightning bolt with whitecaps on the water. They would be repetitive, but they would be smaller (like the waves on the rough seas).

I see the logic that the invasion hex's weather is what really matters.  I am not up on the rules enough to argue the interpretation, but it makes sense to me.

Wasn't there a discussion about how there would be some visual cue as to which hexes were valid invasion targets?  Would that take care of some of your concerns, Froonp?

One last thing.  If sea zones have only 3 sets of behavior due to the 5 weather categories, it may be clearer for new players (and old hands as well) to keep things straight by displaying 3 types of sea hex.

However, other than using a sound cue to represent weather, I do not feel that strongly about it.

Dean



Froonp -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 9:56:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer
PLEASE don't rely on sound.  I usually try to turn off ambient sounds when playing a game.  Weather would probably be an ambient sound.  As an option, I have no problem with it as long as I can turn it off.

No worries, I was not proposing to rely on sound, I just wanted to stress that I wanted these ambient sounds, cause seeing the graphics again reminded me. Ambient sound will be great. I for one love ambient sound.

quote:

Wasn't there a discussion about how there would be some visual cue as to which hexes were valid invasion targets?  Would that take care of some of your concerns, Froonp?

It's not a high concern for me, I know that the weather for invasions is important only in the invasion hex, I just worried for newbies that may not even attempt to invade if they see their invasion fleet under typhoon weather. You know I partly like this new graphic too, just that they are not 100% satisfactory to me when the old ones were.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 10:14:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer
PLEASE don't rely on sound.  I usually try to turn off ambient sounds when playing a game.  Weather would probably be an ambient sound.  As an option, I have no problem with it as long as I can turn it off.

No worries, I was not proposing to rely on sound, I just wanted to stress that I wanted these ambient sounds, cause seeing the graphics again reminded me. Ambient sound will be great. I for one love ambient sound.

quote:

Wasn't there a discussion about how there would be some visual cue as to which hexes were valid invasion targets?  Would that take care of some of your concerns, Froonp?

It's not a high concern for me, I know that the weather for invasions is important only in the invasion hex, I just worried for newbies that may not even attempt to invade if they see their invasion fleet under typhoon weather. You know I partly like this new graphic too, just that they are not 100% satisfactory to me when the old ones were.


One of the things I like about the variations for the weather at sea, is that now it is not so jarring to me to see different weather over islands in the middle of a sea area. It's still a little strange (though pure WIF) but not as bad as having storm throughout the sea area and then a couple of islands experiencing rain.



composer99 -> RE: Weather (11/8/2007 11:51:30 PM)

I think they look lovely. No problem sorting them from the land-based weather; no problem figuring out what they mean, either, once I had a primer on it.



JagdFlanker -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 2:49:11 AM)

the rough seas look so good it makes the clear seas look bland and lifeless - but makes them easier to pick out i guess



brian brian -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 3:37:41 AM)

I hope somewhere the map does label the weather zones, but I haven't seen an example yet. ? (Maybe this is already done?)

Although the weather will be displayed in each hex at all times, it is an important part of planning to know the probable future weather over the area your forces are operating in. To do that you need to look at the weather table and know the current modifier. Europe is fairly straight-forward in this regard but keeping track of the North & South Monsoon zones and the likely weather therein takes a long time to learn. I still don't have a very good handle on the South Monsoon zone and this occasionally causes problems for me playing in the Pacific after plenty of WiF:FE experience.



brian brian -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 3:51:35 AM)

oh and with my previous response in mind, not having the weather lines go through the sea makes it a little hard to figure out which zone a particular island is in. So in the above map example, which zone are Coco and Malpelo in? Obviously they are in the same zone as Colombia. So assuming Colombia is North Monsoon, and Ecuador is South Monsoon, what happens when the Japanese are planning an invasion in the next turn to develop an airbase in the Gulf of Panama, but when they are doing the planning, the weather is the same in each zone? Then the next turn starts and suddenly their target hex is storm?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 5:44:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

oh and with my previous response in mind, not having the weather lines go through the sea makes it a little hard to figure out which zone a particular island is in. So in the above map example, which zone are Coco and Malpelo in? Obviously they are in the same zone as Colombia. So assuming Colombia is North Monsoon, and Ecuador is South Monsoon, what happens when the Japanese are planning an invasion in the next turn to develop an airbase in the Gulf of Panama, but when they are doing the planning, the weather is the same in each zone? Then the next turn starts and suddenly their target hex is storm?

There is a toggle switch for showing the weather zone for each hex (similar to showing hex control). The weather report gives the other information you mentioned. Nonoe of this stuff is constantly displayed, but readily accessible when desired.



mlees -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 5:21:16 PM)

In CWiF, there is a little global map in the lower right corner of the screen that could be set to display different things, one of which was weather. While the colors were a little jarring, it still gave a graphic representation of what weather the hexes and (especially) sea zones were experiencing. Even if you forget to check, the AI didnt, and wouldn't let me fly those NAV missions when I most needed them.

I presume this feature is more or less intact in MWiF. (The global map display feature, that is...)



brian brian -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 6:45:19 PM)

I figured that was already done but hadn't seen how it was done yet, thanks! I think this would be a good point to raise in the appropriate tutorial ... how to know what zone a hex is in. Which leads to this thought - is there a tutorial for only the differences from paper WiF to MWiF? Because how the weather zones are displayed would be one of those differences.



Mziln -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 6:47:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

In CWiF, there is a little global map in the lower right corner of the screen that could be set to display different things, one of which was weather. While the colors were a little jarring, it still gave a graphic representation of what weather the hexes and (especially) sea zones were experiencing. Even if you forget to check, the AI didnt, and wouldn't let me fly those NAV missions when I most needed them.

I presume this feature is more or less intact in MWiF. (The global map display feature, that is...)



[:D] Beta Testers Screenshot of the Global Map [:D]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 7:08:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I figured that was already done but hadn't seen how it was done yet, thanks! I think this would be a good point to raise in the appropriate tutorial ... how to know what zone a hex is in. Which leads to this thought - is there a tutorial for only the differences from paper WiF to MWiF? Because how the weather zones are displayed would be one of those differences.

Actually, the weather zone for a hex is also part of the standard information on each hex as the cursor scrolls over it: row, column, name (if any), resources present, adjacent to what sea areas, current weather, who controls the hex, weather zone, etc.. These are all shown as very short text messages during mouse movement.



composer99 -> RE: Weather (11/9/2007 8:53:50 PM)

Mouseover summaries like that are probably one of the most useful things you can have in a game like this.



robmtx -> RE: Weather (1/22/2008 6:58:51 PM)

I was searching for military games and came across this site. My opinion is you've done a much better job than most games in simulating realistic weather conditions. The only item I would like to point out is the weather zone boundry off the coast of China - near Taiwan. The example in this thread shows it in the same zone as north China. However, the water temperature here is similar to the Gulf stream. Tropical storms commonly move thru this area but  rarely - if ever - does it snow. Your Tutorial however showed blizzard conditions. It may be more realist to include the sea around Taiwan as part of the North Monsoon weather zone.
Overall, this games looks very interesting. When will it be available?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (1/22/2008 8:06:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: robmtx

I was searching for military games and came across this site. My opinion is you've done a much better job than most games in simulating realistic weather conditions. The only item I would like to point out is the weather zone boundry off the coast of China - near Taiwan. The example in this thread shows it in the same zone as north China. However, the water temperature here is similar to the Gulf stream. Tropical storms commonly move thru this area but  rarely - if ever - does it snow. Your Tutorial however showed blizzard conditions. It may be more realist to include the sea around Taiwan as part of the North Monsoon weather zone.
Overall, this games looks very interesting. When will it be available?

Welcome.[:)]

My task is to take the existing World in Flames board game and convert it to the computer. To that end, I am making the absolute fewest changes to the game as possible. So changing the weather boundaries is outside my job description. However, the data file that defines the weather zone for each hex on the map is in a simple CSV (comman separated values) file, and you could edit it using NotePad or a spreadsheet. There are 70,200 hexes, each with its own weather zone #. Actually it's not that hard to change, since each entry has the column and row number of the hex included.

See the thread When? at the top of the forum list of threads for my monthly report on development status and scheduled release date.



Zorachus99 -> RE: Weather (1/22/2008 11:40:20 PM)

Different bitmaps for all-sea hexes for the varying weather for the zone is *the way* to go.  Much more intuitive. 

The overlay for land hexes is fine since it is 'selectable'.

Instead of an overlay for the weather showing the type by pixel, have you considered a weather icon to insert into a hex?  Such as a grey '*' for snow and a white '*' for blizzard?  This is very similar to how control the hex is displayed.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 1:36:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Different bitmaps for all-sea hexes for the varying weather for the zone is *the way* to go.  Much more intuitive. 

The overlay for land hexes is fine since it is 'selectable'.

Instead of an overlay for the weather showing the type by pixel, have you considered a weather icon to insert into a hex?  Such as a grey '*' for snow and a white '*' for blizzard?  This is very similar to how control the hex is displayed.



I see no need.

The weather overlay never covers the units and shouldn't obscure anything important in a hex. At least that was my goal when approving the different deisgn proposals. I would expect to play with the weather visible all the time myself. I really want to know when it isn't Fine, which is the only time an overlay appears.



Zorachus99 -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 5:43:15 AM)

The reason you need weather displayed in a sea zone is that it affects naval combat considerably...

What's critical is the Sea Box you are planning to move in, and the weather therein.  Sometimes the sea box is not very clear what zone of weather it exists in.  Many sea-areas are split by a weather line.  Where the sea box is makes a huge difference.  It should be extra clear what weather is in a sea area you are moving a task force into.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 6:06:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

The reason you need weather displayed in a sea zone is that it affects naval combat considerably...

What's critical is the Sea Box you are planning to move in, and the weather therein.  Sometimes the sea box is not very clear what zone of weather it exists in.  Many sea-areas are split by a weather line.  Where the sea box is makes a huge difference.  It should be extra clear what weather is in a sea area you are moving a task force into.

Not a problem. Post #181 above shows how the seas look for rain/snow. There is another sea hex image for storm/blizzard. So if you have the weather visible, the entire sea area will show which of the 3 weather effects the sea area has. Note that for all purposes there is no difference between rain/snow at sea and storm/blizzard at sea.

I couldn't find any sea areas that are split by a weather zone.

What does happen is that some islands in a sea area are in different weather zones than the all-sea hexes around them. That is also true for some stretches of the continents where a single sea area borders two different weather zones in the coastal hexes (Baltic Sea for instance).



Zorachus99 -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 6:03:34 PM)

The old maps have weather lines dividing the baltic and south china sea...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 6:24:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

The old maps have weather lines dividing the baltic and south china sea...

Well, I guess then MWIF is an improvement[:)].

As you can see, the white weather boundary crosses the Baltic Sea from Stockholm to Turku, but a boudary also encapsulates the Gulf of Bothnia and Gulf of Finland, which gives all the 'pieces' of the Baltic Sea the same weather.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/4FA6D60E0FB046CCBB4C580384CDADA0.jpg[/image]



Zorachus99 -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 7:02:51 PM)

Awesome! 

A tired question probably; do the sea bitmaps change (uniquely) for each of clear, rain, storm, snow, and blizzard weather effects?  The example at the top of the page is obviously not clear...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (1/23/2008 7:43:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Awesome! 

A tired question probably; do the sea bitmaps change (uniquely) for each of clear, rain, storm, snow, and blizzard weather effects?  The example at the top of the page is obviously not clear...

There are 3 all sea 'terrain' bitmaps. Fine weather (post #206), Rain/Snow weather (post #181?) and storm/blizzard weather which shows a lightning bolt.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (2/6/2008 6:54:44 AM)

I revised the text for this tutorial, bringing it up-to-date with other changes (all-sea weather bitmaps). The screen shots are unchanged though.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/88F0D96835FF4E5BAC86593A61A9C149.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Weather (2/6/2008 6:56:33 AM)

Here is where the main change in the text occurs. I wanted to talk about there only being 2 types of weather overlays for all-sea hexes.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/A4226DECD5CC45B592305CAB3F0393F2.jpg[/image]



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