IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING?

IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (Full Version)

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BrucePowers -> IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 10:45:58 PM)
Presuming you have the political points to do so, is it?

m10bob -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:01:27 PM)
IMHO, yes. You already know you cannot "purchase" most of the units at the Phillipines and will sacrifice some (most) of them, but you will have enough to save air support engineer units (which you MUST have), and having the ABDA HQ unit cannot hurt, especially to open another major base somewhere.

Big B -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:01:57 PM)
Y-E-S

dpstafford -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:06:09 PM)
No. Nothing in the DEI or PI is worth saving except the B-17's (which I send to India via China). Least of all a non-air HQ.

Terminus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:07:12 PM)
STOP SHOUTING!

ctangus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:17:09 PM)
Worth it? Yes. It could be very handy to prep for future offensives. However, I'd say it's borderline gamey, depending on your opponent's playstyle. From what I've read of your AAR your opponent seems reasonable so I'd say don't evac it. IRL the ABDA command was dissolved when the DEI fell. I've personally never evac'd any of the non-respawning command HQs. (ABDA, Malaya, USAFFE.) They fight to the end! My (inflated) two cents.

Big B -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:17:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dpstafford No. Nothing in the DEI or PI is worth saving except the B-17's (which I send to India via China). Least of all a non-air HQ. The thing is - HQs are Golden. You need the support to let your land units to fill out, and draw enough supply, etc. You get far too few HQs in the game as it is.

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus Worth it? Yes. It could be very handy to prep for future offensives. However, I'd say it's borderline gamey, depending on your opponent's playstyle. From what I've read of your AAR your opponent seems reasonable so I'd say don't evac it. IRL the ABDA command was dissolved when the DEI fell. I've personally never evac'd any of the non-respawning command HQs. (ABDA, Malaya, USAFFE.) They fight to the end! My (inflated) two cents. Terminus did not ask for any house rules (he pretty much said "do what you have to that's what I am going to do") Did I get the gist of it, T? This now begs the question, how do I keep Terminus in the dark?[:)]

m10bob -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus Worth it? Yes. It could be very handy to prep for future offensives. However, I'd say it's borderline gamey, depending on your opponent's playstyle. From what I've read of your AAR your opponent seems reasonable so I'd say don't evac it. IRL the ABDA command was dissolved when the DEI fell. I've personally never evac'd any of the non-respawning command HQs. (ABDA, Malaya, USAFFE.) They fight to the end! My (inflated) two cents. Terminus did not ask for any house rules (he pretty much said "do what you have to that's what I am going to do") Did I get the gist of it, T? This now begs the question, how do I keep Terminus in the dark?[:)] Alas!!!! That is the crux of the entire situation! Terminus knows all...sees all..... He IS the freakin' Wizard of Oz ![8D]

Big B -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:55:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers This now begs the question, how do I keep Terminus in the dark?[:)] Alas!!!! That is the crux of the entire situation! Terminus knows all...sees all..... He IS the freakin' Wizard of Oz ![8D] "Not with a bayonet shoved through is neck!" - Cpt. Blackadder (sorry T, just kidden' you) [image]local://upfiles/16855/0D44F2EFFDEA4AB792CDAE418490DA0C.jpg[/image]

ctangus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/6/2007 11:57:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus Worth it? Yes. It could be very handy to prep for future offensives. However, I'd say it's borderline gamey, depending on your opponent's playstyle. From what I've read of your AAR your opponent seems reasonable so I'd say don't evac it. IRL the ABDA command was dissolved when the DEI fell. I've personally never evac'd any of the non-respawning command HQs. (ABDA, Malaya, USAFFE.) They fight to the end! My (inflated) two cents. Terminus did not ask for any house rules (he pretty much said "do what you have to that's what I am going to do") Did I get the gist of it, T? This now begs the question, how do I keep Terminus in the dark?[:)] Well, if you don't think it would violate the spirit of your game, go for it, the HQ would certainly be worthwhile. Though I also don't know how you'll keep Terminus in the dark. [:)]

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 12:48:13 AM)
From a game perspective, yes. HQ's are always useful. From a historical perspective/bent, I don't, because ABDA was a specific command set up for a specific purpose. Once that purpose no longer existed, the command was broken up. That doesn't happen in the game and if i'm playing the Allies, i just can't resolve having say HQ ABDA sitting in Port Morosby, or Brisbane, or Adaman Island for example. Too gamey but thats just me and how i would play. I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me. Question like this always depends on the player's styles and preferences. [:)]

Big B -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 1:09:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus From a game perspective, yes. HQ's are always useful. From a historical perspective/bent, I don't, because ABDA was a specific command set up for a specific purpose. Once that purpose no longer existed, the command was broken up. That doesn't happen in the game and if i'm playing the Allies, i just can't resolve having say HQ ABDA sitting in Port Morosby, or Brisbane, or Adaman Island for example. Too gamey but thats just me and how i would play. I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me. Question like this always depends on the player's styles and preferences. [:)] From a purely historical perspective ABDA was desolved when the DEI fell. However, ITRW, the Allies would never have done so if HQs worked the same as they do in this game. (that is to say - a Head Quarters as mere Command arrangements, as opposed to the inherent logistical side of WitP HQs). Furthermore, evacuating Dutch units out of the DEI to fight another day makes good military sense - and there is very much an historical WWII precedent for this: at Dunkirk, of the 330,000+ troops evacuated to England - no fewer than 140,000 of those were French and Belgian...even though some British troops were left behind (about 40,000). So I would say (from my point of view) there is nothing gamey about saving what you can to fight another day...under most circumstances. B

SireChaos -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 2:34:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus From a game perspective, yes. HQ's are always useful. From a historical perspective/bent, I don't, because ABDA was a specific command set up for a specific purpose. Once that purpose no longer existed, the command was broken up. That doesn't happen in the game and if i'm playing the Allies, i just can't resolve having say HQ ABDA sitting in Port Morosby, or Brisbane, or Adaman Island for example. Too gamey but thats just me and how i would play. I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me. Question like this always depends on the player's styles and preferences. [:)] From a purely historical perspective ABDA was desolved when the DEI fell. However, ITRW, the Allies would never have done so if HQs worked the same as they do in this game. (that is to say - a Head Quarters as mere Command arrangements, as opposed to the inherent logistical side of WitP HQs). Furthermore, evacuating Dutch units out of the DEI to fight another day makes good military sense - and there is very much an historical WWII precedent for this: at Dunkirk, of the 330,000+ troops evacuated to England - no fewer than 140,000 of those were French and Belgian...even though some British troops were left behind (about 40,000). So I would say (from my point of view) there is nothing gamey about saving what you can to fight another day...under most circumstances. B ... especially if, in real-world terms, having some Dutch troops still in the fight after the DEI fall would serve as a rallying point for whatever Dutch exiles still remain outside Axis occupation. Sort of like Charles de Gaulle´s Free French. ABDA could have assumed the role of harassing the Japanese in the DEI and disrupting the flow of raw materials to Japan, mainly by submarine I suppose, but maybe also special forces raids and such. In the game, the ABDA HQ could serve as the "nerve center" of the defense of northern/western Australia (the coastline from Darwin to Perth, essentially), if your opponent shows the has the habit of considering a possible invasion there.

alanschu -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:02:19 AM)
I have no beef with the evacuation, but I'm just playing against the AI. I also didn't metagame, and only evacuated them when it looked like things were going very bad in Java and Palemberg.

niceguy2005 -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:10:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus From a game perspective, yes. HQ's are always useful. From a historical perspective/bent, I don't, because ABDA was a specific command set up for a specific purpose. Once that purpose no longer existed, the command was broken up. That doesn't happen in the game and if i'm playing the Allies, i just can't resolve having say HQ ABDA sitting in Port Morosby, or Brisbane, or Adaman Island for example. Too gamey but thats just me and how i would play. I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me. Question like this always depends on the player's styles and preferences. [:)] I would agree. Seldom do I suggest anything is gamey, but saving the doomed and restricted commands seems very much gamey to me. First, they were formed specifically to command certain regions, once those areas are conquered there is little need for their existence, thus IRL they would have been disbanded even if saved. Second, the game mechanics allow them to influence units not of their command making them useful from a game standpoint, but could you imagine some defunct command running around giving support and orders to Southwest Pac units. To me if a player wants to save ABDA then they should make extraordinary efforts to go on the offensive in DEI ASAP. They should recognize that the ABDA command would represent political pressure to recapture the area.

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:17:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Furthermore, evacuating Dutch units out of the DEI to fight another day makes good military sense - and there is very much an historical WWII precedent for this: at Dunkirk, of the 330,000+ troops evacuated to England - no fewer than 140,000 of those were French and Belgian...even though some British troops were left behind (about 40,000). So I would say (from my point of view) there is nothing gamey about saving what you can to fight another day...under most circumstances. B I think you need to re-read my post Brian [:)] quote: I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me The game tactic i'm referring too is evacing fragments or even whole Dutch units before a point of a situation becoming untendable, such as at Dunkirk, happens. ENG (Base) unit's are very popular for this....I can't fathom Dutch unit's voluntarily abandoning their territory before being threatened to go defend some other country's possessions. Also the evacuation of small numbers of men from trapped units was primarily to save lives. Those saved men could be used to fill/flesh out other units and contribute to the war effort, but in the game the purpose is not to save lives, it's to save an LCU slot and use the entirty of the unit again. I have always found that gamey though at least now there's an exp penalty for doing so. Like Mogami though, the above are examples of personal house rules that I only enforce on myself. I do not require this of my opponent. An example of a house rule i require to play a PBEM is no sub invasions for either side.

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:20:57 AM)
I haven't even figured out how to do sub invasions. Really Sub evacs, yes... invasions no.[:)]

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:23:51 AM)
Also Nik and Niceguy, as you can see from my above posts I have given T plenty of opportunity to object. If he does so I will not do it. This is a friendly game, after all. Also I think he might be looking at it as an opportunity to sink more transports (which it may well be)[:)][:D]

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:25:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers I haven't even figured out how to do sub invasions. Really Sub evacs, yes... invasions no.[:)] easy...just form a big multi sub TF (same you use to go hunting) and hit Load troops. [:)]

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:25:45 AM)
Also I do realize that in real life this would have been basically impossible.

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:26:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers Also Nik and Niceguy, as you can see from my above posts I have given T plenty of opportunity to object. If he does so I will not do it. This is a friendly game, after all. Also I think he might be looking at it as an opportunity to sink more transports (which it may well be)[:)][:D] Anything goes as long as both players agree. [:)]

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:27:29 AM)
Well my big US subs have done nothing but shoot dud torpedoes for the last 4 months...the S boats on the other hand....

Terminus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:29:17 AM)
If you've got the PP's, then spend them. I'm just surprised that you have any, considering all missed-RN-withdrawal penalties you've had to pay...

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:31:39 AM)
I had 2 left on March 31[:)] I don't give back RN ships (I get them sunk instead)[:D]

Big B -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Furthermore, evacuating Dutch units out of the DEI to fight another day makes good military sense - and there is very much an historical WWII precedent for this: at Dunkirk, of the 330,000+ troops evacuated to England - no fewer than 140,000 of those were French and Belgian...even though some British troops were left behind (about 40,000). So I would say (from my point of view) there is nothing gamey about saving what you can to fight another day...under most circumstances. B I think you need to re-read my post Brian [:)] quote: I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me The game tactic i'm referring too is evacing fragments or even whole Dutch units before a point of a situation becoming untendable, such as at Dunkirk, happens. ENG (Base) unit's are very popular for this....I can't fathom Dutch unit's voluntarily abandoning their territory before being threatened to go defend some other country's possessions. Also the evacuation of small numbers of men from trapped units was primarily to save lives. Those saved men could be used to fill/flesh out other units and contribute to the war effort, but in the game the purpose is not to save lives, it's to save an LCU slot and use the entirty of the unit again. I have always found that gamey though at least now there's an exp penalty for doing so. Like Mogami though, the above are examples of personal house rules that I only enforce on myself. I do not require this of my opponent. An example of a house rule i require to play a PBEM is no sub invasions for either side. Yes I did spot the important text ... I guess that's just a judgement call as to when a player thinks it's advisable.[8D]

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:38:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Yes I did spot the important text ... I guess that's just a judgement call as to when a player thinks it's advisable.[8D] I suppose....me, If i'm the dutch commander and I'm holding Java and i'm told to evac my sovereign territory before even one Japanese soldier touches down in my soil, and go defend say, "Brisbane" I'd proably go.....WTF? esp if that commander is not Dutch. Dunkirk, the example you used was pretty clear at which point it was "advisable".....i.e. they were cut off and surrounded by the Germans in an untendable situation with their backs to the sea. The BEF obviously had only one choice....(go back to England) and they tried to save as many Allied troops as possible. Thats a far different situation from telling Dutch commander Ja to prepare to ship out to Midway (A US possession far away and removed from any Dutch concern) for a future defense months down the road.

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:42:08 AM)
I did not say I was going to do it right now.[:)] Nik, I had about 200 PP on March 29. On April 1, the Admiralty wants a BB and 2 DD back. They are not going to get them. I needed to use the PP before 1 April[:)] I had just reached a decision point.[:)]

Nikademus -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:45:27 AM)
I never give back British ships either. I'm greedy. [:D] the PP penalty should probably be more severe i've always felt.

BrucePowers -> RE: IS THE ABDA HEADQUARTERS UNIT WORTH SAVING? (1/7/2007 3:47:24 AM)
Of course the efectiveness of the HQ is cut by being assigned to.... elsewhere.[:)]

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