zoom in/out? (Full Version)

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baboune -> zoom in/out? (6/15/2008 3:44:54 PM)

hi,

Would it be possible to zoom in and out on the main map?




NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/15/2008 3:56:05 PM)

I have mentioned this before and I, again, agree that a zoom in and out would be GREAT!!

I can't until all of the major and most of the minor bugs are fixed so Marshall can get on with making this game better.




delatbabel -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/16/2008 4:14:41 AM)

I think it would be a useful feature. I can't say it's likely to make it into the 1.03 release but I'd suggest adding it to the bug tracker and then you'll have a handle on where it's progressing. It may or may not be feasible based on the graphics library used by EiANW.




Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/16/2008 4:52:32 AM)

Even if you could print the map (the whole map, on 1, 4, or 9 sheets of paper -- players' choice), that would help a lot. Just having a color-coded map would be a fine addition.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/16/2008 4:21:13 PM)

I like the idea BUT I don't think this will make 1.03. In fact, I would like an editor before this gets added.




baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 1:09:07 AM)

Well I am sorry Marshall, EiA is a game where you need to know what is happening inside and outside of the played country.  Easy and clear information is required at all times.  Today, the lack of information (or limited accessibility in some cases) might be OK against AI.  The fact is that in MP it requires vast improvements.

It is obvious that in such a game you need constant and easy access to corps/fleets deployment, and what has happened: Battles, Dows, state of war, number of ships being built, cash spent last land phase, money sent from country to country, last economic phase results, ship building activities, etc, in a simple and accessible form (not 500+ lines of 1/2 lines in a log). 

The map: How difficult is it to have a zoom in/out? Playing Russia, you can not even see your empire from end to end.  You have to guess at the location of the French army and browse from Italy to Spain and Germany.  Same with British fleets. It is plain horrible and frustrating.

This access to information must have priority over any improvements to the AI.




JavaJoe -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 4:49:33 AM)

A zoom out/in feature would be nice but let's not get melodramatic now.

[sm=rolleyes.gif]




Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 5:15:44 AM)

I agree that the editor is higher priority




NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 5:25:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

I agree that the editor is higher priority



I have to totally disagree. I think the editor should be the LOWEST priority on the list, and if it's not then Matrix is making ANOTHER BAD design decision.

Editor? Who cares? You can't even play the game properly right now! It's not even EiA (as advertised), it's some crazy crack *** variation, some idiot's concoction of EiA. Why, oh why, did they let that moron screw with the game so damn bad? I'll never know.

Editor? Why do people want to edit so bad when the game is not even working properly? Do you think the "editor" will let you re-program the game? It's not going to let you do this. The rules are going to stay the same, so an editor, IMO, is lowest on the list right now, if it's even on the list at all.




gwheelock -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 5:55:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

I agree that the editor is higher priority



I have to totally disagree. I think the editor should be the LOWEST priority on the list, and if it's not then Matrix is making ANOTHER BAD design decision.

Editor? Who cares? You can't even play the game properly right now! It's not even EiA (as advertised), it's some crazy crack *** variation, some idiot's concoction of EiA. Why, oh why, did they let that moron screw with the game so damn bad? I'll never know.

Editor? Why do people want to edit so bad when the game is not even working properly? Do you think the "editor" will let you re-program the game? It's not going to let you do this. The rules are going to stay the same, so an editor, IMO, is lowest on the list right now, if it's even on the list at all.



I belive that when Jimmer says "editor" he is NOT talking about the "scenario editor" (create new game varients). He is talking about the "host editor" which would be a
program that would let the game host fix any wierd/glitchy/end-case stuff manually
as the problems occur. (Such as the case that happened in the Cleverdevils2 game
that I am hosting - Turkey managed to capture Bagration even tho he didn't eliminate
the ENTIRE Russian army as the rules require [he elimnated the CORP that Bagration
was attached to])
occur




Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 7:14:37 AM)

That is correct, Gwheelock. I'm referring to the game editor or host editor (depending on how it is implemented). I don't personally care if we EVER get scenarios.




eske -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 12:21:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: baboune

Well I am sorry Marshall, EiA is a game where you need to know what is happening inside and outside of the played country.  Easy and clear information is required at all times.  Today, the lack of information (or limited accessibility in some cases) might be OK against AI.  The fact is that in MP it requires vast improvements.

It is obvious that in such a game you need constant and easy access to corps/fleets deployment, and what has happened: Battles, Dows, state of war, number of ships being built, cash spent last land phase, money sent from country to country, last economic phase results, ship building activities, etc, in a simple and accessible form (not 500+ lines of 1/2 lines in a log). 

The map: How difficult is it to have a zoom in/out? Playing Russia, you can not even see your empire from end to end.  You have to guess at the location of the French army and browse from Italy to Spain and Germany.  Same with British fleets. It is plain horrible and frustrating.

This access to information must have priority over any improvements to the AI.


I believe baboune has a point here and some very good suggestions. Access to information could be so much better, and add to the playability of the game in a big way simply by making the game mechanics and economics more transparent. My impression from this forum is, that if you don't knw EiA in advance the learning curve is very steep.
And my guess is a lot of experienced players keeps side notes to accumulate information along the way. Probably even running a spreadsheet or something. Trying to keep track of enemy armies and economy. A lot of this naturally belongs in the game.

And in a game that runs a long as this one, having some way to have the history of the game shown, will enhance the playing experience (My guess is most players have an interest in history, by the way..)
Graphics showing data collected over time could be Victory points, all PP ups ans downs, gaining or losing control of minors (in $ and MP), Navy sizes. This is all public information so keeping track should be made easy.
Then you could add graphics of your own nations private information like army size and composition, how you earn and spend your money - just to mention the obvious. This should of course not replace having all present data at hand. babounes list has some of that too.
Just having a primitive personal notepad or journal in game would be a bonus.

And to return to the original topic of this thread: Simply a way to export the bottom right political minimap would be a nice feature. Preferably in a good quality slightly blown up version. Improvements would be to i) add areas and ii) an indication of which area contains corps, and their nationality. I don't care how many and what type. This would suffice to make EiANW slight more of a spectator sport.
And while we're at it. Why not allow games you are not participating in to be viewed in a neutral mode, only showing public info. Simply allow any games to be loaded and then add a 'View' button next to the 'Resume'. My guess is that would not be too hard.

I don't know how the priority of these enhancements would be. You assess the effort/gain payback [;)]

/eske




Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 2:43:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: baboune

Well I am sorry Marshall, EiA is a game where you need to know what is happening inside and outside of the played country.  Easy and clear information is required at all times.  Today, the lack of information (or limited accessibility in some cases) might be OK against AI.  The fact is that in MP it requires vast improvements.

It is obvious that in such a game you need constant and easy access to corps/fleets deployment, and what has happened: Battles, Dows, state of war, number of ships being built, cash spent last land phase, money sent from country to country, last economic phase results, ship building activities, etc, in a simple and accessible form (not 500+ lines of 1/2 lines in a log). 

The map: How difficult is it to have a zoom in/out? Playing Russia, you can not even see your empire from end to end.  You have to guess at the location of the French army and browse from Italy to Spain and Germany.  Same with British fleets. It is plain horrible and frustrating.

This access to information must have priority over any improvements to the AI.



I never said it wasn't going to get done??? In fact I said I liked the idea???
I apologize. Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way???

I don't know how difficult this will be. I have not looked into this yet.








pzgndr -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 3:42:34 PM)

quote:

A zoom out/in feature would be nice but let's not get melodramatic now.


I agree. Zooming out may provide a bigger picture, but you still don't get much information just by looking at unit counters without clicking on them. It certainly isn't a crisis. The UI could use a few improvements but it works and isn't a crisis as some make it out to be. There are more important issues.

quote:

Editor? Who cares? You can't even play the game properly right now!


There HAS to be a better way to create scenarios and OOBs. It's been 6 months since release and all we have still is the one grand campaign with the EiH v3 OOB? Marshall needs to at least make whatever he has functional enough so his playtesters could make scenarios. We need some more scenarios, which could be developed in parallel with the game development.




NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 4:01:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

That is correct, Gwheelock. I'm referring to the game editor or host editor (depending on how it is implemented). I don't personally care if we EVER get scenarios.


Ah, I see, my mistake. A host editor (for manipulating VP and PP, etc) would be great.

I don't care about a scenario editor either, at all. I would like to see an editor implemented so that we could make this game more like EiA and less like EiH.




baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/17/2008 8:31:08 PM)

woohoo!





baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 12:14:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JavaJoe

A zoom out/in feature would be nice but let's not get melodramatic now.


Note that I was refering to the overall access to information in the game. My two major frustrations are the UI (no clear visual representation of the strategic situation) and the lack of information about what is ongoing around my power (the logs).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I never said it wasn't going to get done??? In fact I said I liked the idea???
I apologize. Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way???

What rubs me in the wrong way is spending time on the AI instead of improving the MP aspects of the game like the UI. Realistically, the AI will never be able to even come close of challenging (Prussia dows GB in Jan 1805) while UI changes are simple and any improvements really show.





KenClark -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 12:23:00 AM)

I agree 100% with Baboune.  Even if he lives in Sweden now.




pzgndr -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 3:35:51 AM)

quote:

What rubs me in the wrong way is spending time on the AI ... Realistically, the AI will never be able to even come close of challenging


I disagree 100% with baboune. Thank goodness fellas like David Heath, Erik Rutins and Marshall Ellis all disagree with him too and are working to provide a challenging AI whether baboune and others like it or not.

I think they're just scared silly the day will come when the machine whoops their butt. [;)]




NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 3:38:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

What rubs me in the wrong way is spending time on the AI ... Realistically, the AI will never be able to even come close of challenging


I disagree 100% with baboune. Thank goodness fellas like David Heath, Erik Rutins and Marshall Ellis all disagree with him too and are working to provide a challenging AI whether baboune and others like it or not.

I think they're just scared silly the day will come when the machine whoops their butt. [;)]


While I agree that it's good (mostly for them) that Matrix is working on an AI, the current AI couldn't beat a 3 year old.




pzgndr -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 2:46:22 PM)

I won't defend the behavior of the current AI.  However, I do remain optimistic that the AI can and will be improved significantly.  I doubt it will ever prove "brilliant" against experienced veterans, but it should become challenging enough for most players, especially with medium and hard difficulty levels.  Assuming Marshall keeps improving and tweaking the computer opponent over the next year or so with constructive feedback from experienced players, it may eventually prove to be very challenging.

What is completely unhelpful for this computer game's development are the rude and asinine remarks that the game shouldn't even have an AI in the first place, that the AI shouldn't be worked on, that the AI cannot possibly ever be improved enough to be challenging, yada yada yada.  So be it, such folks are out there and continue to engage in a losing argument.  The game does have AI, it is actively being worked on, and will continue to be improved over time, despite all the whining to the contrary.  Tough luck fellas.

Those who really do not care for a computer game with an AI and are really only looking for what VASSAL and other pbem software already provides, why make such a selfish fuss to deny computer gamers one of the most important features of computer gaming?  If it weren't so sad it might be funny.  No matter, their voices are not having a significant impact on what Marshall and Matrix are correctly doing to move this game forward.  Resistance is futile, they will comply. [:)]




NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 3:40:08 PM)

I hope the AI gets there. It won't ever be a challenge to an experienced player, either tactically or strategically. It can be a challenge to "win" to an experienced player given the additive PP/VP the AI on hard can get. For me, that doesn't make an AI. That's like watching a fight where one guy is getting destroyed but simply refuses to go down or quit, what's the point? It becomes sad to watch and embarassing.

The AI needs to get upgraded, significantly, and not just by making the AI capable of giving itself free VP/PP.

That said, I think the AI can get to the point where it will be a nice feature for players that have never played EiA and decide to buy the game, but right now, there really aren't enough of the bugs fixed yet for Matrix to be worrying about the AI, IMO. There are still WAY TOO many bugs in the game and NOT enough of the important elements of EiA coded into the game. The game, as it stands, is really unbalanced (in favor of GB and FR) because of all that EiH crap they put in the game and because of the lack of combined movement and naval rules.




KenClark -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 4:47:27 PM)

The AI for a game like this probably requires more resources than one programmer.

But frankly, maybe the game should work before the AI is optimize, perhaps? You know, fix the glaring bugs and rules problems?

I think if you allocate X number of resources to the bugs and/or the AI you will accomplish way more with bug fixes than you would with the AI.

The AI is just gravy, in my opinion. You can feel free to have your own opinion.




baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 6:25:31 PM)

I concur with you Ken.

Bad AI is fine till the game works and is enjoyable.  I dont see the AI as a priority today.




baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/18/2008 6:30:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

What is completely unhelpful for this computer game's development are the rude and asinine remarks that the game shouldn't even have an AI in the first place, that the AI shouldn't be worked on, that the AI cannot possibly ever be improved enough to be challenging, yada yada yada.  So be it, such folks are out there and continue to engage in a losing argument.  The game does have AI, it is actively being worked on, and will continue to be improved over time, despite all the whining to the contrary.  Tough luck fellas.

I dont think we are denying having an AI, we would like the game to be improved BEFORE having an AI.




Murat -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 4:09:55 PM)

Yes but some of those improvements are changes to information that is NOT standardly available in the game, battles for example are not public info beyond the pp changes.




JanSorensen -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 4:26:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Yes but some of those improvements are changes to information that is NOT standardly available in the game, battles for example are not public info beyond the pp changes.


Murat,

Where in the EiA rules is that stated? Maybe I just played it wrong but I seem to remember that all battles were very public when I played 15 years ago.




KenClark -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 4:47:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Yes but some of those improvements are changes to information that is NOT standardly available in the game, battles for example are not public info beyond the pp changes.


Murat,

Where in the EiA rules is that stated? Maybe I just played it wrong but I seem to remember that all battles were very public when I played 15 years ago.


See below, in particular 7.5.2.6.3. Also, we always played that any time you had to roll dice and consult a chart to determine morale and/or strength that you had to disclose the corps composition, since that was the only way to check for errors (and/or cheating) since there is no GM. Also, historically, one would have a pretty good idea of who was at which battle I would think.

2.4.2 USING THE NATIONAL CARDS: The maximum strengths of corps and fleets are shown on the appropriate National Cards (one card per major power, and one for all of the minor countries). The corps and fleet counters when face-up on the map only how their general type and movement allowance. Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players (e.g., during a combat-see 7.5.2.6.3). The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players.

7.5.2.6.3 Reveal Forces: Both sides simultaneously reveal corps identities, the exact size and composition of their forces and their final morale levels.





JanSorensen -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 5:48:38 PM)

I apologise. I read Murat's post as saying that battle info is not public in the original board game.
So, I misread and hence misunderstood.




JanSorensen -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 6:06:28 PM)

I just reread the EiA rules - and found something unclear.
Is the National Card public or private?

That is - can all MPs view exactly how many factors are in each French corps but they just dont know which corps are which on the map - OR - do you neither know where each corps is nor the number of factors in each corps except when the game forces a corps to be revealed?

When reading the rules I dont see it mentioned that the National Card should be private but maybe I am missing something.




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