RE: zoom in/out? (Full Version)

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Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 6:48:46 PM)

Corps strengths are not actually intended to be secret from a plain reading of the rules, however all groups I have played with have played that they are secret for some added fog of war effect.

The lack of feedback after battles in EiANW is a major drawback; one cannot review the losses and see the strength of the corps which were involved, things that were integral to EiA.



Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 9:10:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog

Corps strengths are not actually intended to be secret from a plain reading of the rules, however all groups I have played with have played that they are secret for some added fog of war effect.

The lack of feedback after battles in EiANW is a major drawback; one cannot review the losses and see the strength of the corps which were involved, things that were integral to EiA.

Here are the relevant rules (relevant rules bolded):

quote:

7.5.2.6 STEP SIX-REVEAL FORCES/MORALE LEVELS: Both players reveal their forces and determine their final morale levels.

7.5.2.6.1 Determining Morale Levels: Morale levels represent a force's "morale", and the higher the number the better. "Base morale levels" can be calculated by one of two methods. Players should decide before the game begins which method to use for their game. Also see the NATIONAL MORALE VALUES CHART on the Game Card.

7.5.2.6.1.1 Method One: The base morale level is calculated by adding up the products of the number of army factors having the same morale value, and dividing this total by the total number of army factors and rounding up to the next tenth of a point. Guerillas, freikorps and cossacks may be included in combat with a morale value of "1.0" Militia are included with a morale value of "2.0" Artillery are included with the morale of the major power's regular infantry. Guard infantry have a morale value of "5.0" Other infantry and cavalry have their morale values indicated on the back of their corps counters. For example, if a force of 51 total army factors has 21 factors at morale "3.0", 20factors at morale "4.0" and 1 0 factors at morale "5.0" this is: 21 times 3 plus 20 times 4 plus 10 times 5=193 divided by 51 factors=3.784 which rounds to a base morale level of "3.8."

7.5.2.6.1.2 Method Two: Method One for the determination of the base morale level of a force can be involved and almost certainly involves the use of a pocket calculator. Therefore, we offer this simpler (and faster) alternative; first, determine the "primary component" of the force. This will be that major power with the most corps present, including controlled minor free state corps (with equal numbers of corps present, the primary component is that major power with the lowest basic morale). The "basic morale" of this primary component provides the base number for determining the base morale level of the whole force. The basic morales are: Great Britain-"4.5;" France-"4.0;" Russia, Austria and Prussia-"3.5;" Spain and Turkey-"3. 0" (also see the NATIONAL MORALE VALUES CHART on the Game Card). The basic morale is increased by "+ 0.1" for every guard factor and reduced by "0.1" for every militia, cossack, freikorps, guerilla, feudal or minor free state infantry or cavalry factor with a morale value of "2.0" or less (see the backs of the minor country corps counters) in the force, even if not in the primary component. The basic morale may not be increased by more than a net "+0.5" nor decreased by more than a net "1.0". This is the base morale level of the force. For example, Austria has an army composed of 3 Guard, 28 regular infantry and 6 militia. Its basic morale is "3.5" plus "0.3" (3 Guard factors) minus "0.6" (6 militia factors "3.2" base morale level.

7.5.2.6.2 Final Morale Levels: The "final morale level" for each day is the base morale level minus "0.5" for each succeeding day of the combat after the first and any modifiers indicated on the OPERATIONAL POSSIBILITIES CHART on the Game Card. The final morale level is the point at which the force will break. For example, a force with a base morale level of "3.2" will also use that figure for its final morale level on the first day of a combat. On the second day of a combat, the final morale level will be "3.2"minus "0.5" equals "2.7"

7.5.2.6.3 Reveal Forces: Both sides simultaneously reveal corps identities, the exact size and composition of their forces and their final morale levels.


Seems pretty clear to me.



Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 9:16:42 PM)

Yeah; except... not clear at all. FWIW I have no problem with corps strengths being private and revealed (to all players) only during battles, but it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.



NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 9:17:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog

Yeah; except... not clear at all. FWIW I have no problem with corps strengths being private and revealed (to all players) only during battles, but it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.


True, I agree that it is not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules, although the rules Jimmer points out imply it.



JanSorensen -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/19/2008 9:27:54 PM)

The fact that its not explicitely said in the rules that corps strenghts are private/hidden rather clearly states to me that the RulesAsWritten are that corps strenghts are infact public and that the only hidden part is that you do not know which corps on the map is which.

Playing with private strenghts appears to be a house rule - albeit probably a very widespread one :)

The bolded part:
quote:


7.5.2.6.3 Reveal Forces: Both sides simultaneously reveal corps identities, the exact size and composition of their forces and their final morale levels.

implies nothing really as far as I am concerned. Its just saying that you should reveal the corps indentities as well as the numbers you already calculated. Mind, even if the corps strenghts were private there is nothing hidden about morale - so revealing the final morale level just means that you tell the others what value you calculated - not that you reveal anything thats hidden. Hence one cannot infer anything from "reveal ... size and composition of their force .." either.

Anyway, I am fine with that house rule being an integrated part of EiANW.



baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 1:04:50 AM)

In any case during combat you should reveal both corps identities and forces.  From then on it is quite simple to follow the corps and deduce the sizes for any corps on the map.  When we played we a log of each and every battle with forces in presence, picked chits and losses.

This is completely impossible in EiANW.

Also, historically, it was pretty much impossible to mask the forces strength when they were on the move.





Murat -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 5:59:41 AM)

Actually it is only the players involved in the battle that get the above information, nothing in the rules say that ALL players get to see the results, just the 2 sides do.  There is a whole thread here about that rule.



JanSorensen -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 7:53:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Actually it is only the players involved in the battle that get the above information, nothing in the rules say that ALL players get to see the results, just the 2 sides do.  There is a whole thread here about that rule.


Murat,

Nothing in the rules say only the 2 sides do either. If that was meant to be the case then it should have explicitely been mentioned.

Do you have a link to the thread you mention?



Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 4:52:55 PM)

I just think it's heartbreaking that I cannot see in the log complete detailed battle reports including corps strengths and casualties for battles that I WAS INVOLVED IN! I mean, what the hell... how hard would it be to have a detailed battle report barf out into the log????



Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 5:11:38 PM)

Is the battle summary info not enough?



Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 5:19:07 PM)

Where can I see the Battle summary, except at the moment the battle ended? What if I want to go back and refer to it at a future time?



Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 7:26:46 PM)

It should be in the log???



baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 7:30:21 PM)

The logs are hard to read and not the same as a summary page where you could see all combats, corps, factors and chits.

Each turn generates hundreds of logs and they can not be filtered or ordered.  They are not even color coded.

This thread contianed lots of small improvements:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1668008&mpage=1&key=�



NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 7:41:33 PM)

Simply put: the logs are a mess. It's just a big text file that doesn't have a "search" or "find" option. You just have to scroll and scroll until you get lucky enough to catch something with your eyes.

There is a TON of info in the logs, for sure. I don't doubt that the logs have lots of good info, it's just that it's too hard to read it. If the log(s) were better organized for human reading than that would be great. Maybe a tree structure of some kind? Maybe color coded (at the very least) like someone mentioned. Etc.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 8:31:47 PM)

So the problem is not the battle summary but the log presentation???




KenClark -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 10:25:21 PM)

Marshall, there are two problems with the log:  1 (more important) is that it doesn't display any battle information (see below).  2 is that it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in the log.  It's more important to get the combat info in the log than it is to make a log parser, but both are important.

As for battle information, there is no real battle information whatsoever in the log other than political point losses (I don't recall if there are even casualty numbers in there).  The log should contain (and this is very important) the following information for everyone to see (or at least the combat participants, but I say everyone):

1.  During a field or limited field combat:
A.  The strenghts of each corps (and composition) prior to the battle (e.g. F1G - 3g2c, FIV - 10I2M2C., TAnat. 4 feud. cav. etc., namely the corps name (and nationality) - lets you know if it's feudal cav, infantry, guard, militia, art. etc. )
B.  The strenghts of each corps (and composition) that reinforced into the battle
C.  The chits chosen by each side
D.  The casualties caused in the battle (by round would be nice, along with the die rolls but not essential I guess)
E.  The political points lost or gained in the battle by country involved
F.  The losses taken during the battle + pursuit losses by each side (+ pursuit die roll)
G.  The total strength of the forces left at the end of the battle once the losses are taken

-- For G I am not sure what level of granularity is required, but I suggest putting into the log the corps strengths of each corps remaining in the battle, although strictly speaking from the EiA rules I think just the remaining factors in total is what is required, not 100% sure on that.

2. Similarly, for seige combats you shoudl have in the log
A. The starting strengths and compositions of each corps and/or garrison
B.  The die rolls for each round of combat & the casualties for that round
C.  The final strenghts in total (or per corps see G above) of the forces at the end of that round

If you surrender in a seige battle rather than fight, or if you successfully withdraw from a field or limited field battle, none of the corps size information should be given.

Knowing the die rolls is just for fun, since you can then complain (or brag) about your luck more easily.  Knowing the final compositions is critical to play.  For example, in a game I am playing currently, I had a 1-factor garrison in London.  France cleared the channel of ships and ran 1 corps across from Lille.  It attacked London and killed the garrison.  However, I have no information whatsoever about the composition of this corps.  This makes it very difficult to know what its strength is, and how many troops I should be bringing (Prussians!) to fight it.  Since I fought that battle (instead of surrendering the troop) I should be given the information on the strength of that corps.   (same would be the case for a depot garrison battle)

This is one of the reasons for having the 5:1 trivial battle rule implemented as well, it gives you the ability to attack stacks with 1-factor corps to see what's inside. 

Having a parser that would allow you to review the log for particulars (e.g. battles or things that directly affect you) would be fantastic as well, although not 100% necessary for game play.

Ken



Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/20/2008 10:46:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenClark

As for battle information, there is no real battle information whatsoever in the log other than political point losses (I don't recall if there are even casualty numbers in there). 


Actually, the log is inconsistent. For example, in a recent battle in our game, the Russia vs. Turkey battle was actually presented TWICE in my log (I'm GB). It was also presented twice in France's log, but showed some different lines there.

I agree with your suggestions, but wanted to point out that the log file, as it is, sometimes contains the information and sometimes does not.

Marshall, I respectfully suggest that the log should be made complete for all players. This would mean all players get all information, including all of what Ken and the others are saying here.

Then, LATER (after the log can be confirmed to be accurate through lots of playing time by lots of people) you can add the Fog of War stuff back in.

By the way, I've got some ideas on fog of war, but let's get the main stuff working well before that -- that's an endcase.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 12:42:17 AM)

OK??? I'm we must not be talking about the same thing or something because here is a battle summary that is in the log:

1805, Jul Prussia Loses 1 PP(s)
1805, Jul France Gains 1 PP(s)
1805, Jul France Wins Battle Of Dusseldorf
1805, Jul IV corps was eliminated.
1805, Jul I corps was eliminated.
1805, Jul Prussia Breaks, France Wins!
1805, Jul France Casualties
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 2 Infantry, 2 Cavalry
1805, Jul R3: France Die 3, Perc 10, Mrl 1.40
1805, Jul R3: Prussia Die 2, Perc 0, Mrl 0.00
1805, Jul France Casualties
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 4 Infantry
1805, Jul R2: France Die 4, Perc 10, Mrl 1.40
1805, Jul R2: Prussia Die 3, Perc 5, Mrl 0.20
1805, Jul France Casualties , 1 Infantry
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 4 Infantry
1805, Jul R1: France Die 6, Perc 10, Mrl 1.50
1805, Jul R1: Prussia Die 6, Perc 10, Mrl 1.10
1805, Jul Day 1 CHITS Prussia:Assault France:Defend
1805, Jul France, Murat, 2 corps
1805, Jul Prussia, 2 corps
1805, Jul BATTLE:Dusseldorf Attacker:Prussia Defender:France
 
Parsing it is one thing but does this done have all that you need???
 
 
 
 



Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 12:54:04 AM)

It's missing what the actual die roll is (or, something to tell us that the roll presented is unmodified).

It's also missing what the starting forces were (corps numbers and strengths).

The other thing is what I pointed out: The log doesn't always show the same thing to all players. That could be fog of war, but, since we are unsure whether the log is even accurate, I submit that fog of war shouldn't be in place yet.

We KNOW that the log is inaccurate in some things (for example, it doesn't display it if both GB and France change their movement order, and sometimes when only one of them does). So, until we are absolutely sure the log is 100% accurate, we shouldn't have any FOW on.



Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 3:46:41 AM)

Where are the corps strengths? Before and after? Total strengths? Total morale levels?

Also casualties and die rolls don't seem to be listed for Naval battles.



KenClark -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 7:39:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

OK??? I'm we must not be talking about the same thing or something because here is a battle summary that is in the log:

1805, Jul Prussia Loses 1 PP(s)
1805, Jul France Gains 1 PP(s)
1805, Jul France Wins Battle Of Dusseldorf
1805, Jul IV corps was eliminated.
1805, Jul I corps was eliminated.
1805, Jul Prussia Breaks, France Wins!
1805, Jul France Casualties
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 2 Infantry, 2 Cavalry
1805, Jul R3: France Die 3, Perc 10, Mrl 1.40
1805, Jul R3: Prussia Die 2, Perc 0, Mrl 0.00
1805, Jul France Casualties
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 4 Infantry
1805, Jul R2: France Die 4, Perc 10, Mrl 1.40
1805, Jul R2: Prussia Die 3, Perc 5, Mrl 0.20
1805, Jul France Casualties , 1 Infantry
1805, Jul Prussia Casualties , 4 Infantry
1805, Jul R1: France Die 6, Perc 10, Mrl 1.50
1805, Jul R1: Prussia Die 6, Perc 10, Mrl 1.10
1805, Jul Day 1 CHITS Prussia:Assault France:Defend
1805, Jul France, Murat, 2 corps
1805, Jul Prussia, 2 corps
1805, Jul BATTLE:Dusseldorf Attacker:Prussia Defender:France

Parsing it is one thing but does this done have all that you need???







What you need to know are (a) the corps sizes and compositions at the start of the battle and the same at the end of the battle. There was no pursuit so that wasn't shown, and the morale levels weren't shown either. I guess I missed the die rolls which were there which are nice.

Does it do the same log for single-corps battles?



bresh -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 12:54:40 PM)

While i do agree, battleinfo should be shown more in game log.

I do belive the gamelog should show less about foraging.



Forage should only show Corps name and factors lost.
Not forage values etc, since where is the secret in corps placement then ??
So if no forage loss/depot supply corps should not be listed in gamelog.


Regards
Bresh



pzgndr -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 2:44:01 PM)

quote:

Forage should only show Corps name and factors lost.
Not forage values etc, since where is the secret in corps placement then ??
So if no forage loss/depot supply corps should not be listed in gamelog.


Probably should keep this for home country only logs. Is it possible to record only some home country events on the current home country log? There's stuff like this other players don't need to see, but would be helpful to track just in case. If and when the depot supply limit optional rule gets implemented we're going to want to verify it's working OK. Until that happens and players are satisfied supply is working correctly, we'll need the log info. Later, maybe get rid of it?

For battle results, could the log maybe show an abbreviated summary and then if you click on a battle event you get another popup screen with all of the detailed battle results? In addition to the start/end corps strengths, leaders and combat modifiers and such could also be listed for reference. There'a a lot of info that could be saved for a detailed battle report but it doesn't have to take up log space.



baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/21/2008 8:53:18 PM)

Dont forget this is mixed up with all sorts of other logs.

In any case, Marshall, this log example show how badly the information is displayed and how difficult it is to put it together.





Marshall Ellis -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/22/2008 8:18:55 PM)

What I will need to do is put some intelligence behind the data because the log is truly just raw text at this point so there is no way to associate with a player right now. Turning this more into a database will need to be done. The problem with that might be the obsoleting of current games (i.e. new struct is different form old.) but maybe a conversion could be added in db update tool??? Sorry, just thinking out loud...




Soapy Frog -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/22/2008 10:24:12 PM)

Thinking in the right direction! That'd be lovely!



Jimmer -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/22/2008 10:24:45 PM)

Turn it into an option. Have the default for new games be to turn it on, but the default for old games be off. Then, you don't have to convert.



NeverMan -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/23/2008 1:04:05 AM)

Just leave the log as it is from the start of the old to the start of the new. For instance, the new patch takes the old log and leaves is as a text that can be retrieved while creating a new log from scratch with the new patch that starts from when the new patch was loaded. This is an easy alternative, IMO.



baboune -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/23/2008 6:45:02 PM)

Remove the logs from the main page. 
Add a log page button somewhere that will pop up an updated log page.

If the log information is there, you might be able to build a log parser that would extract the current log information and transform it? otherwise do as neverman suggests.



delatbabel -> RE: zoom in/out? (6/24/2008 2:53:57 AM)

In the rules, the national cards are face up. Corps strengths are known to all players, just not their locations. One of the strengths of a good EiA player will be to deduce the position of other players' corps based on battles last seen, likely possibilities (now Murat is stacked with 1 of France's 2 cav corps, I'm guessing it's the larger one), and educated guesswork (I think he's likely to be defending Amsterdam with a corps about 20 factors, because that's where his fleet is based and 20 factors is the biggest that will fit into the city).

A lot of gaming groups play a house rule that the national cards (and hence corps strengths and total army strength) are kept secret from all players. This appears to be the preponderence in PBEM games I have played, whereas in all of my FtF games the national cards have been public knowledge.



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