RE: Scrap Lists - Default (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 9:09:29 PM)

My two cents as a player about the proposed scrap lists for Fascist Tide is that I never scrap ATRs. They are just too valuable and might be needed in the future.



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 9:12:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are Michael's lists for Fascist Tide. This is basically half of the Global War scenario.

Russians : I would never scrap that much land units.
Only the GARR 2-1, the MOT 3-5.

CW : Too much CVP are scrapped. The CW is in dire need of low class CVP for most of the game. Difficult to say when you don't see what is left.
I'd never scrap the Vildebeest either.
I would scrap more SUBs.

France : I'd not scrap the ATR.

USA : I'd not scrap the INF 4-3, and I'd scrap more SUBs.

Italy : I'd keep the SM.81 because of its ATR capacity.

Germany : I'd scrap no ATR, no land units at all.
I'd scrap more SUBs.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 9:36:50 PM)

I´m starting to see that this will be hard  ... every one have their own ideas about what units to scrap .......







Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 9:46:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

I´m starting to see that this will be hard  ... every one have their own ideas about what units to scrap .......

It is likely that the most difficult to reach consensus on will be Global War. Fascist Tide is just part of that.

I suggest building a spreadsheet with all the scrappable units in the first column, and then create a new column for each person who gives you his suggested list. That will give you an overview of all the suggestions, where they agree and where they disagree. I have no problem with maybe having 2 or 3 suggested scrap lists included with the release version of the game, with one as the 'Default'.

And remember we do not have to satisfy everyone here. Players can always create their own personal scrap lists.

The goal is to have a 'good' default list for the newcomers to WIF so they do not have to worry about making these decisions, and yet do not suffer later in the game from having a 'bad' default list.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 9:53:19 PM)

but .... what is a good scrap list .... I think that it is the middle way .... only remove few and the most out off class units ....

but it is the most important think to find out ... what kind of scrap list do I make ...



just to be clear ..I don´t scrap any scs/cv ...



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 11:08:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
just to be clear ..I don´t scrap any scs/cv ...

I think you could scrap those that have a sunk date prior to the scenario.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/26/2008 11:12:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
just to be clear ..I don´t scrap any scs/cv ...

I think you could scrap those that have a sunk date prior to the scenario.



I disagree.. but it just my 2 cents



Taxman66 -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 1:31:09 AM)

Here is a simple rule about CVPs.  If it has a cost of 0 (zero) don't scrap it.  It can be used to keep up gearing limits, if nothing else.

Personally I rarely if ever scrap USSR or GE ground units.  I can always find some sort of use for them.  Crummy GE units can used for partisan duty and later in the war to establish secondary lines to help avoid the paradrop/double turn nightmares.  For USSR a couple of 'blah' GAR units in a swamp, city or other defensible choke point (while obviously in dead man walking status) may cause GE to loose an impulse or part of an impulse of full movement.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 3:11:41 AM)

good point ...I´m starting to think that you only should scrap air units and trans/amph and subs ....



warspite1 -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 8:29:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I want to have default scrap lists for every major power for aeach scenario - about 70 total.

Here is Michael's suggestion for Guadalcanal for the Commonwealth:

[image]local://upfiles/16701/019BF023018647099A48541319F3E7CA.jpg[/image]

Warspite1

My view on the scrap CW scrap list in Guadalcanal is this:

The CW have three Orange (2 capacity) Carriers. There are a range of carrier planes from Light Blue (1) to Dark Blue (4) available. However the carriers can only carry Light Blue and Orange planes. On the basis that the carriers need planes I would suggest scrapping no Light Blue aircraft at the start in order to increase the odds of a Light Blue/Orange plane making it to the start line. Unfortunately the CE cannot scrap Green (3 +) carrier planes so this plan is not full proof. However on an odds basis it seems the best way to try an ensure carriers have planes otherwise there is a good chance that one or more carriers will be redundant during the game - this has happened on numerous set-ups I have tried.

The other possibility is to scrap only the very worst of the Light Blue - Osprey and maybe Nimrod - but not all



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 9:26:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Here is a simple rule about CVPs.  If it has a cost of 0 (zero) don't scrap it.  It can be used to keep up gearing limits, if nothing else.

I disagree.
You should scrap some, the ones that have factors of 0 or 1 IMO.
Otherwise, you will start with some of them, and they are worthless.

The "can be used to keep up gearing limits" idea is a false good idea. You need this trick once a game at most, so don't polute your force pool with worthless planes for that reason.



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 9:33:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

good point ...I´m starting to think that you only should scrap air units and trans/amph and subs ....

No, there are some land units that should be scrapped. The Russia GARR 2-1 and the Russia MOT 3-5 in Global War are good candidates. When a unit cost more or the same as it has combat factors, you should beging to wonder if you will use this unit.
With the Russia, just prepare your production from S/O 39 to M/J 41, and see if you need that extra MOT and that extra GARR. when you will have seen that you have more MOT than you can build you'll decide.

With Germany, I agree, never scrap a land unit, you desperatly need them. The INF 4-4 is the best unit to conquer Copenhagen during the suprise Impulse, so keep it.

With the CW, there is an Indian INF 3-3 that I always wonder if I'll scrap it or not. Most of the time I keep it. To defend Bombay or Colombo it is good enough.

With the US, I scrap nearly no land unit, except the worst MOT. I need those land units to defend the islands I don't want the Japanese to conquer freely during his suprise Impulse : Midway, Dutch Harbor, Pago Pago, Wake, a double stacked Honolulu, the Hawai island, the hex E of Honolulu. That's already 8 land units that I need, and I only have 1-2 at setup (depending if you keep McArthur in Manilla or if you prefer use it to defend Midway or Honolulu.



Orm -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 10:44:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


With the CW, there is an Indian INF 3-3 that I always wonder if I'll scrap it or not. Most of the time I keep it. To defend Bombay or Colombo it is good enough.




What you scrap depend in some degree on if you play with the unlimited divisions option (and scs transports). The 3-3 Indian Inf is nice to break into divisions. You get weak divisions when you break it down but they appear in an area you need more cheap units that are easy to sea transport.

-Orm



ptey -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 12:45:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are Michael's lists for Fascist Tide. This is basically half of the Global War scenario.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/244AAE7BC50D4118B95DDDF8A463BB19.jpg[/image]


Let me start by saying that im a fairly big fan of scrapping. Especially if you are playing with the oil rule.
Im looking at the at old SiF and PiF counters, so my opinions may in some cases not be up-to-date.

For all MPs its safe to scrap all the bad fighters. Even in the scenarios with a later starting date, you would probably want to scrap most or all of those you can as well. I never play those, but afair you generally dont start with that many fighters in those scenerios anyway. Also, with the new rule from the errata about back-up fighters, a - say fighter with a 5 A2A rating is worth even less in '44.
And never(!) scrap an ATR (as others have said).

For Russia, as others have said. Dont scrap other land units but the 2-1 garr and the worst mot. I wouldnt scrap the Nav, you would get one with one more Air2Sea, but you then lose one A2A, i admit its nitpicking but if playing with bounce combat, i would prefer the extra A2A for my russian nav.:) I would however scrap the 3-3 trns as well so you get the 4-3 one, I cant think of a build plan with Russia where you wanna build (or just start) a trns in '40. And you can invade with a mot div from the 4-3 (or an inf div if not playing with scs transport, which also makes it more important), which you may actually wanna do.

For the CW i would also scrap all the CVPs except those 8 that you setup, just as you have done. I wouldnt scrap the nav, its good for alot of jobs. I would for sure scrap all the 4-3 trns (except one) so you get the 3 4-4 ones (and exchange the 4-3 with the Queen of playing with that rule). This is imo quite important.

For the US i wouldnt scrap other land units than (maybe) the 3-1 garr. About the trns, the same thing goes for the US as for the CW, but you probably wanna keep some for building, but im not perfectly sure on the numbers here.

For Italy i would scrap one of the 3-3 trns as well, so that you are sure to get the 4-3, with which you can perform an invasion in spring/summer '40. And you dont wanna start a third trns in '39 anyway.

For Germany i agree with scrapping only the 2 3-3 trns, but i would never scrap the 4-4 inf.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 1:53:41 PM)

good point ... 



warspite1 -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 4:13:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

good point ... 

Warspite1

Michael - how do you get all the scrapped units to show in one box??




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 7:18:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
good point ... 

Warspite1
Michael - how do you get all the scrapped units to show in one box??

That's me that did that.

The Pools form let's you look at any of the "off-map" pools, such as the 6 production pools (one for each turn in a year), the force pools, the scrap pool, etc..

There are filters that can be applied too, so you could get the scrapped units for just 1 major power to be shown. However, I cheat and change the hard-coded setup order for each scenario. That means I have to start a new game N times for the scenario (changing the major power that sets up first each time), where N is the number of major power in the scenario. But the benefit is that I get to ignore setting up the units in each scenario, since scrap happens before setup.

I just cut and pasted screenshots of the diffferent major powers' scrap lists onto the USSR screen shot, so they would all be visible in a single post.



YohanTM2 -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/27/2008 9:16:35 PM)

Land units

I concur on not scrapping land units with Germany - never.

USSR - maybe in lat war scenarios but again no in Global War, you need them eventually

CW - I have never done so but could see where it could make sense

USA - yep, scrap away for lower value units

Japan - never

China - I have never done so

Italy - never, need them all



micheljq -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 3:09:52 PM)

I am not sure it's such a good idea for the russians to scrap the GAR 2-1 and MOT 3-5 units, at least in 1939.

For the CW, the india 3-3 INF unit is nice, because of the geographical place where it appears, I would not scrap it either. Just my personal opinion.




composer99 -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 4:40:16 PM)

The only CW land units I scrap are the 5-factor MOT and one of the artillery pieces (can't recall now if it's ART or AT or AA); it's 2 factors and not worth spending 5 bp on when I can get a MECH, an HQ, or a ftr3+ pil for the same price (not to mention the CW gets better ones).

As the US I aggressively scrap 4-6 factor MOT and MECH.



meisterchow -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 6:54:04 PM)

I wouldn't scrap the Italian ATRs.  Decent range ATRs almost always earn their keep regardless of their combat stats. Yes, I know they are bombers, but white range circles trump in my book. For much the same reason, I'd be hesitant about scrapping that Ju-52, however a range of only 5 is a consideration.



sajbalk -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 9:18:09 PM)

I would also never scrap ATR or white circle LND. Otherwise ...

For Germany, 1939. Never scrap any land units. You will use them all. As to the TRS, scrap any 3 speeds. Scrap any 3 speed SUBs or poor 4 speed SUBs. The air shown looks fine.

For Italy, 1939. Never scrap any land units. The 3 speed TRS can go, and the 3 range FTRs. Once IT is active, a lot more air goes in the dumpster, but this is all 1936 and 1937, so cannot be done at start.

For Japan, 1939. Never scrap any land units. Get rid of all the CVPs you can. With the at start CVPs and the ones you build, there will be enough. Get rid of 3 speed SUBs and lift, as well.

For the USSR, the air shown is fine. However, I would only scrap the 3-5 MOT. The poor INF and GAR make good garrisons or roadblocks and you have little better to spend the BP's on in 1939-1940.

For China, scrap nothing.

For the USA, scrap all available planes that will not impact initial set up. Scrap any 3 speed lift and poor SUBs. I like to keep the GAR and INF to fully stock the Pacific Islands. Fine with scrapping MOT, but with the optional divisions, you will want to keep it. MOT divs are the key, not MOT corps.

For FR, scrap the poor TRS and whatever guns you do not want to set up. Keep all other land units, you will need them; air looks OK.

For CW, I keep all land units, but the gun shown is ok to scrap. Air and lift OK; look to 3 speed subs and poor 4 speeds, too.




Plainian -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 10:59:42 PM)

Um dense question time.

What is this 'lift' unit that Steve refers to above?

In Britain a 'lift' is either what an Americans call a 'ride in a car' or an 'elevator'? [;)]



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 11:33:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Um dense question time.

What is this 'lift' unit that Steve refers to above?

In Britain a 'lift' is either what an Americans call a 'ride in a car' or an 'elevator'? [;)]

Here it is the sea lift I suppose, that is : the TRS.
This is a common using of the "lift" word in WiF.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/28/2008 11:36:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Um dense question time.

What is this 'lift' unit that Steve refers to above?

In Britain a 'lift' is either what an Americans call a 'ride in a car' or an 'elevator'? [;)]

It is what the short generals put in the bottom of their shoes to make them look taller.[;)]

Lift as used here is short for Sea Lift and refers to TRS and AMPH. If playing with Divisions and the Amphibious rules, surface combat ships (SCS) can also be used for 'lift', transporting a division, even for invasions. In this context though, Steve means just the TRS and AMPH.

There is also Air Lift which are the air transports (ATRs) and bombers that can be used for same (they have a white circle on their range so are referred to as "white circle" bombers by the Wiffers).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/30/2008 1:13:46 AM)

Here is Micahel's 2nd pass on default scrap lists for Global War, based on your feedback for Fascist Tide.

Comments?

[image]local://upfiles/16701/F66E4E38F7274F5B93301D0AEDA1104F.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/30/2008 2:35:10 AM)

My opinions on the scraps in post 56 above:

USA: Keep the Amph. 
Russia: Keep the Amph - just in case.. ,  scrap the 2-1 Gar and 3-5 Mot.
CW: keep the 4 range class 1 CVPs -search bonus.. keep the Amphs,
France: Keep the Art.
Italy: keep the Art
Japan: keep the Amph and the 5-3 SUB and the Art, keep the 2 5 range class 1  3 factor CVP's
Germany: keep the 4-3 TRS's

Lars



paulderynck -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/30/2008 5:37:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Here is a simple rule about CVPs.  If it has a cost of 0 (zero) don't scrap it.  It can be used to keep up gearing limits, if nothing else.

Personally I rarely if ever scrap USSR or GE ground units.  I can always find some sort of use for them.  Crummy GE units can used for partisan duty and later in the war to establish secondary lines to help avoid the paradrop/double turn nightmares.  For USSR a couple of 'blah' GAR units in a swamp, city or other defensible choke point (while obviously in dead man walking status) may cause GE to loose an impulse or part of an impulse of full movement.

I agree with that except in the scenarios where you have to draw from the zero-CVP units for set-up, I scrap the ones that have no air-to-sea factor.



Froonp -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/30/2008 7:45:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is Micahel's 2nd pass on default scrap lists for Global War, based on your feedback for Fascist Tide.

USA : Looks OK to me.
USSR : I'd scrap the GARR 2-1 & MOT 3-5.
CW : That's a lot of AMPH scraped, especially with so good AA value. I'd keep the 1933 one (AA = 2). Too few TRS scrapped. I'd also scrap all the 4-3 I could, only keeping 4 for setup, and replacing the poorest one with the Queens.
France : Looks OK to me.
China : Looks OK to me.
Italy : Looks OK to me.
Japan : I would not scrap the 5-3 Japanese SUB, nor the A5M CVP nor D3A1 CVP that have 1 A2A and 2 A2S factors. I'd also scrap all the 4-3 TRS I can.
Germany : Looks OK to me.



Orm -> RE: Scrap Lists - Default (7/30/2008 11:28:19 AM)

At times when I look at this I get a feeling I do not have the same units that seems to be in MWIF. I checked units to some extent on http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm.

I usually do not scrap any units of a kind that is not in the setup. I prefer to leave that decision to when I am about to build the unit for I feel I have a better view on my future needs then.

USA: I would also scrap-
2x Inf 4-3
Mot 4-4 (USA should not build such bad units)

USSR: I would scrap following as well -
Sub range 3-2 (1928)
Sub range 4-2 (1930)
Mot 3-5 (This unit simply cost to much for its strength)

N.China: I would scrap -
FTR2 (1936) (China is not neutral)

CW: I would also scrap:
Mot 5-4 (1935)

France: I would also scrap:
Mtn 4-4 (1935) (I wouldn't build a MTN before it is likely Germany is in Paris so why not start with the strongest?)

Japan:
Keep the 5-3 sub and the 4-4 sub. (The 4 range sub is the only with 4 range Japan has and it is nice to threaten 4 areas away and force allies to escort or suffer a 10% for Japan to have fun)

With Germany I would also scrap:
Mot 5-4 (I agree that Germany needs all units late in the war but it also pollutes the strength of its starting units)

-Orm



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