Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (Full Version)

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KG Erwin -> Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/25/2008 11:04:31 PM)

To this gamer, it is exceedingly complex what with all the micromanagement involved in a long campaign. As I have never previously played an AGEOD game, perhaps my unfamiliarity with their concepts seems a bit intimidating. I jumped right into the full War of Independence, and perhaps I bit off more than I can chew. The tutorial just scratches the surface.

Am I alone here? Maybe not, as I have yet to see any strategic guides. All I have to go on is the actual history, which I'm working on absorbing.



Arsan -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/25/2008 11:11:32 PM)


This is definetely the easiest AGEOD game to get into.
But IMHO is much better to play some short/small scenarios to get agood understanding of the game concepts before tackling the bigest and and most complex campaign (the AWI).
But, hey, its your game! you cna play as you want to! [:D]



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/25/2008 11:20:52 PM)

Since you have mastered SpWaW, this should be a walk in the park for you.  Good luck!  Enjoy.[:)]



KG Erwin -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/25/2008 11:39:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Since you have mastered SpWaW, this should be a walk in the park for you.  Good luck!  Enjoy.[:)]


No, my friend, it ISN'T a walk in the park. I've spent so much time playing in a narrow tactical realm that now this continental theater is a bit overwhelming. Going from a Lt Colonel to de facto President of a not-yet-formed US, in war time, is quite a leap.



Marc von Martial -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/26/2008 7:31:55 AM)

Rome was not built in one day [:D], this is no beer and pretzels game at all.

"Moderate" is exactly fitting here. "Hard" is something ala WITP [;)]



Duck Doc -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/27/2008 12:28:03 AM)

I have experience with BoA & not WiA yet. BoA is not a complex game. However there is a gap between what the manual gives up & what is in the game. The manual & tutorials give you all the basic information you need to know. The rest is in the game itself by way of the tooltips. In contrast to most games BoA demands that you play intuitively. You have to play to learn. Let me suggest you just start to play & do what comes naturally. You will learn as you go & it is a lot of fun this way.

For example, in the War of Independence you know that the British are going to reinforce Boston when the war starts. As the British you have some options. You can clean out the viper's nest that is New England or you can plan an amphibious invasion elsewhere - New York, maybe, or how about Philadelphia? But there are constraints of time & resources & weather. Unlike many games the weather plays a huge role. Campaigns follow the seasons. The lack of infrastructure (e.g. roads) in the undeveloped continent means that attrition is sure to hit anybody stuck out in the wilderness when bad weather hits.

Use your common sense. The genius of the game design is really the invitation to play & let the game itself teach you what you need to do. This is rare in a game & must be experienced to be believed. Just jump in & have fun. The game really does allow you to be in command like no other game I know. It is a different experience than most games where the manuals are thick & the play isn't as rich. It is frustrating to start & it took me a longer time than I am willing to admit for me to become comfortable playing because of the number of things going on but I really started to be successful when I just let it all happen. It is kind of a zen experience in a way. Jump in & enjoy.

Try it this way then come back & let me know how you like it.



Executioner Five -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/27/2008 2:20:56 AM)

No, WITP deserves something like a "motherf*****g-insane" difficulty level.

This game should be described as hard.  It's a fantastic game--but to describe it's difficulty level and/or learning curve as "moderate" borders on the deceptive.



Airdrop01 -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/29/2008 1:51:08 AM)

See, I don't get it.  I LOVE WITP.  I think it is far, far easier to play than this BOA2 game.  I've never had an AGEOD game before either though......

Honestly, I've literally thought to myself "how can this be this difficult if I can do WITP!!??"



Arsan -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/29/2008 8:04:20 AM)

Hi
I bet you didn't remember how hard was to learnt WITP on the beginning! [:D]
AGOED uses his own interface and game system that is pretty different from the WITP. So you begin form zero.
But really, its not hard at all once you get the basics. I always found it pretty intuitive.
I mean, is a game where if you play with "common sense" and use tactics and strategies that should work on the real world you will be succesfull.
No need to know all the numbers or check all the reles.
Playing by intuition works pretty good.
Of course, after, you can get deeper on the game mechanics and improve your gaming.
My advices woudl be
- to carefully do the tutorial a couple of times.
- to read the tooltips with atention. Everything has a tooltip with great info and details. It's nearly all there!
- Play around with some small scens to get the feeling of the interface and see how thing work.
- Wait a little to get into the full AWI scens, They are the biggest and more complex.

Hope it helps!



GShock -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/29/2008 10:22:05 AM)

Move up from the smallest scenarios to the bigger ones and only tackle the campaign when you are truly ready on the tactics to employ. The campaign add a strategic set of choices you must couple with what you already learned...and ultimately, you can post on the forums what you dont understand. The secret lies in doing it in steps.

All in all, it's a moderate difficulty level, we're not kidding...and it still is much easier than AACW/SVF.

Take a look at games like Empires in Arms for a complex game and World in Flames for a VERY complex game.
And trust me, if you do step by step, you'll get there too...at that point WiA will turn from moderate to easy.  [;)]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/29/2008 3:16:47 PM)

This game does fall pretty squarely in our "Moderate" complexity level. There are a mix of scenarios to choose from, a tutorial, good documentation and the system is not that complex once you get past the initial learning curve. There's a lot to do in the larger scenarios, sure, but the underlying gameplay and decision-making is not hard to understand.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/29/2008 3:22:40 PM)

I remember I had the same "initial" issue with BoA...once I got over the initial learning hurdle, I was off and running.

Great game. I wish I could afford this as I sold my BoA when I had played it through and it was a great game.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 1:43:40 PM)

Go get e'm Mr. President![:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Since you have mastered SpWaW, this should be a walk in the park for you.  Good luck!  Enjoy.[:)]


No, my friend, it ISN'T a walk in the park. I've spent so much time playing in a narrow tactical realm that now this continental theater is a bit overwhelming. Going from a Lt Colonel to de facto President of a not-yet-formed US, in war time, is quite a leap.




Adam Parker -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 2:40:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

To this gamer, it is exceedingly complex what with all the micromanagement involved in a long campaign.


IMO AGEOD took the wrong route with this game. To me they just couldn't resist going with the zombie trend in game development and try to emulate Forge of Freedom and 2by3/Grigsby by throwing in everything including the kitchen sink. Some people love this trend, to me playing within it is a chore.

To AGEOD, it seems their original, manageable BoA game was no good without a bigger map, bigger unit count, bigger stacks, bigger micro-management. Ah well, only they know the revenue/breakeven on this one.

Worthington Games has released a series of tactical/op level board games charting the American Wars of Independence with their"Hold the Line" titles.

Until another developer gets the point that finesse equates to good design, the classic Mark Herman/Avalon Hill "We the People" will cover my strategic War of Independence needs. He's working on a re-make btw.

And to think I bought my new PC rig to better play AGEOD's BoA and ACW (more RAM the better in these games). They lost me with BoA2.



GShock -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 3:52:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

IMO AGEOD took the wrong route with this game. To me they just couldn't resist going with the zombie trend in game development and try to emulate Forge of Freedom and 2by3/Grigsby by throwing in everything including the kitchen sink.


I can't see any emulation of any sort with any of the mentioned games, and being or having been a beta for each of the ones you mentioned i can tell you that your statement is not correct.

Wia has no structure building choices, no detailed combat option and no monthly option to invest with foreign intervention. There's no control on weaponry, supply management or technological discoveries as all are totally automatic in WiA while they are left to the player's choice in FoF.
These look pretty big differences that make the games totally different: incomparable (as the commonly shared comments in FoF and WBTS forums prove when answering to the questions regarding the similarities shared by these 3 CW games).

Looking at AWD's evolution in WBTS for 2by3, WiA has no similar structure in command points, training and initiative. The very same movement of troops is totally different, the Fog of War concept and the very same combat modifications and unit recruitment system work completely different too.

The only things Wia can have in common with some other game, are those shared with AACW which is the natural basic engine. And even here there's a lot of differences: The replay feature, and the overall recruitment & replacement systems based on EP instead of resources.

Perhaps as insider i fail to see the concrete things you talk about on AgeOD's development policy and that's why my analysis is different, but if you have, do speak them out, hey it's a free world and everyone can have his opinion. [:)]

quote:

And to think I bought my new PC rig to better play AGEOD's BoA and ACW (more RAM the better in these games). They lost me with BoA2.


The supply forwarding and AI routines in WiA have been optimized (supply is much different from AACW's) but the map is considerably bigger and turns last 30 days instead of 15. I believe it's more a matter of CPU than of RAM.



KG Erwin -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 6:34:51 PM)

One thing I want to make clear is that I'm glad I invested in BOA2. The game system is neither simple nor simplistic, and it will provide me with many hours of enjoyment. My commentary isn't meant to turn anyone off from buying it, nor should it be taken as a criticism of the game design.



Adam Parker -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 10:55:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

Perhaps as insider i fail to see the concrete things you talk about on AgeOD's development policy and that's why my analysis is different, but if you have, do speak them out, hey it's a free world and everyone can have his opinion. [:)]


[:)] Ah well GShock, it's perception 'is all. As soon as I saw AGEOD announce "bigger" my genuine enthusiasm turned off. IMO we have too many "big" games and not enough with clever design and finesse.

Browsing the forums hasn't beem able to alter that.

Btw I found I needed the extra RAM to cache the maps.



Arsan -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 11:15:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

Perhaps as insider i fail to see the concrete things you talk about on AgeOD's development policy and that's why my analysis is different, but if you have, do speak them out, hey it's a free world and everyone can have his opinion. [:)]


[:)] Ah well GShock, it's perception 'is all. As soon as I saw AGEOD announce "bigger" my genuine enthusiasm turned off. IMO we have too many "big" games and not enough with clever design and finesse.

Browsing the forums hasn't beem able to alter that.

Btw I found I needed the extra RAM to cache the maps.


Hi!
Adam,
I think you have a pretty wrong impression about how WIA is.
It's not "monster" game at all. Quite the contrary. It retains the manageable size of BoA while adding some new concept that improve the game play a lot. But it does not add further micromanagement.
And certainly its very far of the size and complexity of AACW.
To each its own. People like different kinds of games. Some will thing WIA has the perfect complexity level while other would think it's too "small"
Hopefully, AGEOD release demos: The perfect way of knowing if the game size and complexity level i for you or not.
About CPU/RAM. I found my 5 years old PC handle WIA perfectly. As good as BoA. And much better that AACW or NCP which ask for a little more power.

Regards!



Duck Doc -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (8/31/2008 11:22:57 PM)

I didn't take your post to indicate any criticism of the game at all & I don't think anybody else did either. The game can feel overwhelming to those approaching it for the first time. I share your experience. It can be intimidating at first but it is a wonderful game once you get into it. Also I am sure if you posted questions about the game there would be many veteran players happy to answer them here or on the ageod.com forum. I hope my post above helped. Enjoy!


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

One thing I want to make clear is that I'm glad I invested in BOA2. The game system is neither simple nor simplistic, and it will provide me with many hours of enjoyment. My commentary isn't meant to turn anyone off from buying it, nor should it be taken as a criticism of the game design.




Pocus -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (9/1/2008 7:14:34 AM)

I'm sorry to see we have lost you Adam!

As for bigger, yes the WIA map is bigger than the BOA one, but this is to allow playing the 1812 War and some very focused scenarios. If you start up the American War of Independence, you'll see you are mostly at home here. You get options to activate, a replay module and some others things, but it is definitively not BOA morphed into WitP.



Adam Parker -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (9/1/2008 10:31:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

I'm sorry to see we have lost you Adam!


I'm still here [sm=00000028.gif] [:)]

I haven't bought a PC game for such a long time and honestly I've somehow got the perception that BoA2 is a big beast and been scared off.

Thanks Arsan too. I'm very open to any feedback with BoA2.

I still have a big BoA1 icon on my desktop! Your customer service is still top notch Pocus.



Venator -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (9/1/2008 7:01:45 PM)

In my opinion, B0A2 is in no way a 'big beast'. It's a big improvement on BoA (which I enjoyed immensely). It's not really any more complex in terms of management. you have a few more options regarding replacements/diplomacy and you have to decide how to prioritise these but it's no chore and adds depth at the expense of very little time). There's more sophistication in attrition/supply but this doesn't actually affect playability at all. Just means a little bit more thinking (as opposed to managing) is required.

If you liked BoA, you'll love BoA2 I think. It's the same but better. More challenging but no more difficult to play in a 'management' sense.



killroyishere -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (9/29/2008 12:37:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Since you have mastered SpWaW, this should be a walk in the park for you.  Good luck!  Enjoy.[:)]


No, my friend, it ISN'T a walk in the park. I've spent so much time playing in a narrow tactical realm that now this continental theater is a bit overwhelming. Going from a Lt Colonel to de facto President of a not-yet-formed US, in war time, is quite a leap.



Perhaps you should just get the easy version Civilization IV:Colonization [:D]



Hertston -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/5/2008 12:28:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venator

It's a big improvement on BoA (which I enjoyed immensely).


It is an improvement but, as it first appeared, in no way does it justify a 'new game' tag and price; it's an expansion pack at best. As I waited until I could get it at 'expansion pack' price with the UK box release, no real cause for complaint, I suppose. I was surprised they didn't do extra tutorials, which are clearly needed. Both ACW and Nappy are much better in that regard.



Venator -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/5/2008 12:51:40 PM)

I honestly can't see a need for tutorials. I picked up the essentials after a couple of trial goes at a few turns of the French and Indian campaign and the experience of BoA.

And as for price I thought it was fair enough. After all the map is much bigger (in terms of numbers of regions) and everything is improved over the old BoA. Twenty quid well spent.



Hertston -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/5/2008 2:30:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venator

I honestly can't see a need for tutorials. I picked up the essentials after a couple of trial goes at a few turns of the French and Indian campaign and the experience of BoA.


My point was that as BoA 2 is "new game", and not expansion pack, presumably a great many purchasers will not have "experience of BoA"!



GShock -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/6/2008 12:56:19 PM)

Most likely, and the experience on the engine, even not with boa but with NCP or AACW is a key help for a newbie in WiA. 



Arsan -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/6/2008 1:44:25 PM)

Hi
Its true the WIA tutorial is the same than the BoA one. And a little too short.
But most of the new additions of WIA are not really the kind of thing you explain on a tutorial (basic interface, movement and game concepts). They are more under the hood or not so basic parts of the game (cohesion, attrition, EP, intervention, naval boxes, buying options...)
AACW and NCP had more tutorials and more complex as they had the added complexity of the chain of command system (something you really need to learn how to do interface wise).
WIA works 90% the same that BoA interface wise.  Its pretty straightforward iMHO
Most of rest can be learned with the very informative tooltips and some checking of the manual.

About the new game/expansion thing... well i think WIA adds probably as much as Hoi 2 added to Hoi1 or EU2 to EU 1 on gameplay changes.
And on top of it it has a bigger new map (about 2x size of the original) and quite a lot of new scenarios and campaigns.
Graphics wise it can look like an expansion. In content and gameplay improvements i would say its a worthy BoA 2 full game.
And IMHO, BoA/WIA graphic style is still better looking than 99% of the war games around. No need to change what is already outstanding. [&o]
Regards



Venator -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/6/2008 3:33:48 PM)

I didn't play the tutorial for BoA either...

And yes, it provides just as much 'extra' as Arsan said in his above examples. And to be honest at £20 or so it's not actually that much pricier than many expansion packs...



Hertston -> RE: Moderate Complexity? You Must Be Kidding (10/6/2008 7:15:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

And IMHO, BoA/WIA graphic style is still better looking than 99% of the war games around. No need to change what is already outstanding. [&o]
Regards



Oh, that's certainly true. I think all three games look absolutely gorgeous.. which isn't something you say often about a wargame!



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