RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (Full Version)

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sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (5/9/2009 12:50:28 AM)

Please do send me the save file if you don't mind. I can take a look and see what is going on.

Going back two years to a FitE game, this screen shot shows that with the original Partisan and Security Unit configuration, Soviet units would pop up in the rear areas. While I didn't mind spending the time using the security units to round up the partisans, I didn't see where it was historical at all to have to round up entire Soviet armies that were popping up in areas that were converted/conquered. That was the reasoning behind making the changes that were made.

Sorry about the Wilderness terrain, but it is designed specifically to be painful.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/18CBA77142A649A9B2FF10710198CD68.jpg[/image]



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/6/2009 1:07:34 PM)

have there been any updates since Larry's post of 28 march? Has anybody played the game by PBEM?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/6/2009 4:30:13 PM)

The 3-28 file was the last change to the 'easy' version, and currently we are working on 'phase 2', which is to make the scenario a little more difficult. Basically, in 3-28, the Soviet side was set to keep coming at you, with little regard for defensive positions. This 'phase 2' change gives Elmer defensive considerations. It should be ready soon.



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/7/2009 1:43:36 AM)

Thanks for the update. On the second question has anybody played the game as a PBEM? I am just curious.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/7/2009 3:06:30 AM)

Well, it is a solitaire scenario. I haven't heard of anybody trying Pbem, but I don't know why they would. There is an excellent Pbem scenario - 'Fire in the East' [:D]



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/7/2009 11:06:44 AM)

I know what you are saying. It is that I have seen many comments on the size of FITE it is just that the other day I noticed that Directive 21 could be PBEM. As there not as many units ie 1558 vs 1787 I was just wondering if anybody had given it a go. As I said, I was just curious. By the way I think what has been done to date is great [&o][&o] and I look for 'phase 2" and "3" etc.[:D]



TPOO -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (7/7/2009 4:08:00 PM)

The Order of Battle for Directive 21 shows less units on the Axis side because the infantry regiments are combined into divisions. In its current status Directive 21 cannot be played PBEM because of the way certain formations are set to activate.



BigDuke66 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (8/12/2009 8:59:00 PM)

Will we see the new version before or after the next patch?
Patch should change alot so maybe making use of those changes for the next version would be better.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (8/14/2009 3:33:31 AM)

The latest version is ready and we will be posting it in a few days. I don't know when the patch might be but if it's later than sooner, then we can have this version tested out before the patch.



larryfulkerson -> New Version of Directive 21 (8/15/2009 12:07:26 PM)

Hey you guys...Steve sent me the newest version of Directive 21 and I uploaded it to a file server so you guys can download it from there. You can get the newest version here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?0nzzjzkygli

I'm going to start my game over and use the newest version and I'll post an AAR about what I find.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/15/2009 3:10:39 PM)

Thanks Mr. Fulkerson!

The .dll and some graphics were changed along with the map, so make sure you put the files from the 'in graphics' folder contained in the .zip into the corresponding graphics folder for the scenario.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/16/2009 1:39:25 AM)

I don't think I saw something in the text files so I have to ask, are there any recommendations what advanced options I should set or what AI strength I should choose?

BTW ever thought about making a DOC/DOCX or PDF file with some pics and stuff like that for more atmosphere?
I can still remember the excellent DOC file from DMcB for his "BERLIN: Götterdämmerung im Osten" scenario, with 69 pages very extensive but nonetheless a joy to read them all.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/16/2009 2:53:05 AM)

quote:

... a DOC/DOCX or PDF file with some pics and stuff ...


Did think about it, but instead got permission to modify the original. They put a lot of great work into that one, and I didn't see any reason to do a complete new one.

Here's the settings I use, so I guess I would recommend these:

[image]local://upfiles/24850/BE50121F6009415B97A3042C1C8328CE.jpg[/image]



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/17/2009 9:04:30 PM)

Thanks.
BTW should the OOB(more precise the sequence of units in it) of Germany depict their structur at the beginning of Barbarossa or was it changed to incorporate later changes?



cesteman -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/17/2009 11:34:50 PM)

Thanks, I'll take a look.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/18/2009 12:22:40 AM)

Oh and is there a reason why some German units have their arrival turns set to 500? I mean that's outside of the scenario, should it maybe be event 500?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/18/2009 5:31:22 PM)

Later changes to the oob are included, is there anything in particular that you were looking for ?

Some units have an entry of turn 500 to keep them from entering the scenario. An example are the Soviet Tank Corps. Each of them contain three separate Tank Brigades, which are easily knocked about by the human player. In some cases two or three of the brigades enter at the same time, so we combined them (seemed like an obvious thing to be done). The uncombined units were left in the oob just in case. Eventually these units will be removed from the oob, but for now they are left in for referance.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/18/2009 9:32:08 PM)

OK thanks.

Well I looked thru the OOB I have here for the 22.6.41 for the Wehrmacht and was comparing it to the sequence that the scenario gives me and it seems to follows it quite close.

That’s why I asked whether the scenario follows the official OOB for the 22.6.41 strictly or if later changes are already part of it.

The AGN made me thoughtful because:
AGN
+18th Army
++23rd Inf Korps(Reserve corps of the AGN)
+++206th Inf Div
+++251st Inf Div
+++254th Inf Div
+++207th Sich Div(For AGN)
+++281st Sich Div(For AGN)
+++285th Sich Div(For AGN)
+++253rd Inf Div(Reserve Div of the 16th Army)
++16th Army
+++2nd Inf Korps
etc.

I thought it maybe should looke more like this:
AGN
+++207th Sich Div
+++281st Sich Div
+++285th Sich Div
++23rd Inf Korps(Reserve corps of the AGN)
+++206th Inf Div
+++251st Inf Div
+++254th Inf Div
+18th Army
...and further down the list
+16th Army
+++253rd Inf Div(Reserve Div of the 16th Army)
++2nd Inf Korps
etc.
Altogether more closely to the 22.6.41 OOB and more structured.
But if this isn't intended then forget about it.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/19/2009 7:16:13 PM)

quote:

But if this isn't intended then forget about it.


Thanks for looking into it, but the order in which units are listed in the oob isn't intended to be anything.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 2:10:51 AM)

OK.

It's stated in the readme that captured equipment is "converted into standard German equipment".
Are there maybe details about what is converted into what?
I just looked at the Panther production numbers that are around 6000, with the 2/3 assigned to the east front we would see 4000 there but the scenario provides a bit more then 6900 for Germany, even when considering captured equipment this seems to be a lot.

BTW any intention of adding more events?
I would like to see a major production drop in early 45 for Germany, many production figures show this for tanks, planes and other equipment.
It could be triggerd by the Russian advances because if it runs bad in the east it would for sure not look better in the west same counts opposite so if it runs good in the east it would also run good in the west I guess.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 4:25:34 AM)

quote:

...captured equipment is "converted into standard German equipment".
Are there maybe details about what is converted into what?


This is to say that for the most part, the equipment that is standard to the German/Axis Force is used. There is no actual calculation of conversion. There are a few exceptions, like some T-34's in a few of the Axis units.

quote:

...the Panther production numbers that are around 6000...


The 2/3 of total production was the overall starting point, adjustments were made to these numbers where necessary. More Panzers were on the East Front as this was where most of the Pz Divs were for most of the war. And obviously when some of those units are moved to the West Front, they take their tanks with them. Your calculation of 6900 does seem high, how did you arrive at that number?

quote:

any intention of adding more events?


We're interested in any possibilities that anyone comes up with, but I would add that over the past years, most possibilities have been considered, so it would be difficult to come up with something new and exciting. In general, due to the scale and complexity of the scenario, I'm against adding in anything that would take away from the actual purpose of the scenario, that is to control the Axis side in a reasonable way. Some would like it easier, some would like it more complex. Any suggestions will be looked at for consideration. Except for production. It's been gone over and found to be correct more than enough, and we don't need to waste time on it. For your specific idea, if we decrease in 1945, we need to increase for '43 and '44, and decrease for '42. It would accomplish nothing for a large amount of work. No problem with asking about it, though.

Thanks Big Duke! Do you plan on playing the scenario ?



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 5:19:24 AM)

quote:

Your calculation of 6900 does seem high, how did you arrive at that number?

Well I counted the Panthers that can be found in German units in the scenario dump text file, of course I didn't count from units that don't arrive in the scenario(turn 500 units) and then added 185 turns each with 28 Panthers to it, I think it was 6911 definetly somehting in the 69xx. I din't take the +5% from the Speer event also not the 2 -5% events into the calculation.

quote:

Thanks Big Duke! Do you plan on playing the scenario ?

I think about it but a long overdue PC upgrade is on my list and that will consume a lot time so I'm afraid this has to wait.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 7:48:09 AM)

Panthers - 184 turns at 28 per turn = 5,152. The 51st and 52nd Panther Abts. arrive with 76 each, but are disbanded a couple months later. Only a few of the late entering units arrive with Panthers, all the rest arive with none on hand.

That leaves the 1944 Pz Brigades. The player has the choice to have or not have them. If 'not' is chosen, they do not arrive, and a couple 'Bonus Tank' units are disbanded to throw Panthers into the equipment inventory. If you go through the dump, this may not be apparent, so you might end up double counting quite a few. Maybe that's where the discrepancy is.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 6:07:17 PM)

I found those:
Enters by turn:
76 51st Pz Abt,OKH Pz Abt
76 52nd Pz Abt,OKH Pz Abt
34 FHH Pz KG,Feldherrnhalle
34 FHH PzG KG,Feldherrnhalle
71 DR Pz Reg/1, PzG Das Reich
79 1. LAH Pz Reg,1. Pz Div LAH
79 2. DR Pz Reg,2. Das Reich
79 HG Pz Reg,Fallsch Pz Dv HG
528

Turn 500 units:
49 Model A,1944 Pz Div
49 Model B,1944 Pz Div
98

Enters by event(339)
33 101st Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 102nd Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
32 103rd Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 104th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 105th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 106th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 107th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
33 108th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
46 109th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
46 110th Panzer Bde,Panzer Brigades
355

Enters by event(458)
250 Bonus Tanks 1,Disband Event
250 Bonus Tanks 2,Disband Event
250 Bonus Tanks 3,Disband Event
750

OK event 339 cancels event 458 but the Player gets either 10 Brigades with 355 Panthers or 3 Bonus units with 750 Panthers?
Still if you only take the ones that enter by turn & the brigades you end up with 6035 that still seems a lot but surely looks better then before.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/20/2009 11:56:03 PM)

Then consider which units with Panthers did not see service on the East Front. 26th Pz Div in Italy is the only one I can think of. 21st Pz Div and Pz Lehr both saw action on the East Front, but were not included in D21 (in part due to limited service). The bulk of Panthers that were on the West Front were in units taken from the East Front. In D21 these units are withdrawn for service on the West Front, so you might want to take their 'on hand' Panthers out of the inventory, at some point in time. Overall, the numbers seem to be correct.

quote:

...either 10 Brigades with 355 Panthers or 3 Bonus units with 750 Panthers?


If I remember correctly, this was based on the idea that the Brigades (mini Pz Divs) took more resources to develop and organize. As opposed to the idea that those efforts would have been better spent on an increase in Panthers (therefore a Theater Option). Historically, Hitlers' Mini Pz Divs were a failure, and they were disbanded within a few months and distrubuted as reinforcements to other units.



BigDuke66 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (8/24/2009 4:14:01 AM)

Thanks for the clarification, sounds all more plausible with your explanations.

Still what you said earlier over the German production did not really convince me especially when looking into some numbers.
A lot areas reached their productions peaks between July 1944 and January 1945 so I wonder if the German player gets too much early in the game but too few later in the game.
Well the latter doesn't seem to be a problem as the first makes it easier to be much more successful then historically and with that achieve a comfortable bolster for the later phase of the war so there wouldn't be a chance of losing the game.
It also worries me that this would normally have lead to production rates not raising much if at all and delayed introduction of new weapon types.

In 1942 there was still the opinion that higher production rates for 1943 were not needed also there was no reason of getting new weapons rushed into production because after the successful summer offensive that would without doubt crush the Soviets and with that would finally give a chance to concentrate on England and for that a priority on the Luftwaffe & Marine.
Only Stalingrad showed the weakness of the Wehrmacht, the fact that the Soviets were far away from collapse and the need for higher production & superior equipment.


I know that delaying equipment isn’t possible as far as I know but maybe a lower replacement rate till a “Stalingrad event”(that would for sure need an extreme careful event chain) is triggered that sets of a chain of events for higher replacements that raise the production up till the Soviets get closer to Germany and the losses of raw material sources(that started to dwindle historically in 1944) from the occupied country’s & the other Axis members together with the massive bombardments in the west start to have an impact on the replacements.
So in short:
-Low till an event shows the need for higher production & superior equipment
-Then Raise it steady as long as Germany can keep Europe & the east occupied and its Allies in the war
-Lower it steady(with a delay) depending on what is lost in the east and which German Allies bail out of the war

What do you think about it?



sPzAbt653 -> New Version of Directive 21 (9/6/2009 9:06:24 PM)

Turn 25 (9-14-41) with the new Elmer. I'll post some shots along the front line from south to north. In these first two shots, you can see that I left the Rumanians in defensive positions while moving the 11th Army to northern Rumania. 11th Army then struck across the Prut and Dneister Rivers, and turned to the east and then southeast to outflank the Soviet defenses.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/40C173A05BF74E9EA4E9C71429A73313.jpg[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> New Version of Directive 21 (9/6/2009 9:13:34 PM)

Here is the 11th Army on the move to outflank the Soviet forces.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/03C9528B42A345FDA621E6B57938B0CF.jpg[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (9/6/2009 9:20:34 PM)

As the forward elements move towards Nikollayev, the 7th FJ was dropped there to cut the last road/rail connection with the Soviet forces to the west. The Soviets will still get supply thru the port at Odessa.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/5DEED5737E304790A6F5CEAD5FAE2874.jpg[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: New Version of Directive 21 (9/6/2009 9:27:32 PM)

After clearing the west Ukraine of Soviet forces, the 17th Army and 1st Panzer Army are on the move down the south/west bank of the Dneiper River.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/DC062158611A44C4BF91A5657539EC66.jpg[/image]



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