RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (Full Version)

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sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/8/2009 12:24:36 PM)

quote:

Does freeezing happen that far south?


I believe it does, when it gets cold enough. The Kerch straits would freeze, therefore any shallow hexes north of there would also freeze.



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/8/2009 12:40:28 PM)

I am on turn 79. I captured Leningrad on turn 42 and destroyed all the Russian naval units. Since then one naval unit has reconstructed. Also HQ for 35th Div has reconstructed twice at Narvik (70, 14) and will not be transported by air. May need to make a port there so that units can be transported by sea.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/8/2009 8:58:23 PM)

Ok, I guess I should withdraw the Baltic/Red Banner fleet when Leningrad falls, unless someone can think of a situation where they might have operated from another base. I still don't know why some units gravitate all the way to Narvik for reconstruction, but a HQ unit should be able to 'fly' back to civilization. Why do you say it will not be transported by air? A port in Narvik wouldn't do any good as the area is land locked, but it may be possible to open up a route so that these types of units could be shipped back to Konigsberg.



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/8/2009 11:02:13 PM)

I am not complaining just giving feed back. I think what you have done to date is great. [&o] As far as the HQ unit goes I do not know why it would not board aircraft. I left it sitting on the airfield marker for a couple of turns but it would just not board. I suppose that they where having a good time and had one hell of a hangover from what ever they drink in that neck of the woods. [>:] However as punishment they are on a slow walk home.  [:-] That is what happens when you join the infantry.[:D] I also had one rail repair unit reform in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you should give them a movement allowance of one hex per turn?



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 2:28:58 AM)

I've just had the Baltic fleet regenerate again at Leningrad, so yeah - looks like an event is required to withdraw them.

I can't see them fighting on - perhaps making a suicidal sortie to attack a German port or something....but more likely blown up and the crews given rifles and told they've been "retasked"....



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 3:36:31 AM)

quote:

I am not complaining just giving feed back.


Understood and appreciated, we're all trying to iron out the little annoyances that will make this huge scenario more enjoyable. Keep on feeding back!

I don't know why the HQ won't airlift, it's weight is around 225, and the Axis have an 1,100 capacity. Maybe it has something to do with being eliminated and losing it's airborne capability, but I'm not sure about that. You can always send me a save file and I can take a look to see what's going on.

The rail repair units reconstituting off rail has been looked into, so in the final file this may not happen. The bigger issue here is that they really don't need to be getting involved in combat, they only have to be 'near' the areas that you would like repaired. From my experience, 2-3 hexes back from the front line is close enough. Any closer and it's a good idea to stack them with some protection.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 6:39:50 AM)

And if rail units do appear somewhere particularly useless I guess you can always disband them and hope they appear somewhere better next time! :)

Mostly my dead units have been appearing nearby where they were killed - not that there's been that many!! :)



Silvanski -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 7:02:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I've just had the Baltic fleet regenerate again at Leningrad, so yeah - looks like an event is required to withdraw them.

I can't see them fighting on - perhaps making a suicidal sortie to attack a German port or something....but more likely blown up and the crews given rifles and told they've been "retasked"....


Or you can set reconstitution to "no"



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 11:15:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

And if rail units do appear somewhere particularly useless I guess you can always disband them and hope they appear somewhere better next time! :)

Mostly my dead units have been appearing nearby where they were killed - not that there's been that many!! :)



I've got a rail unit dude that keeps appearing at the same spot no matter how many times I disband him. And the spot doesn't happen to be on a rail so I can't use him when he does appear. I guess I'll just have to live with him instead of disbanding him all the time. Sigh......



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/9/2009 11:46:57 AM)

quote:

I've got a rail unit dude that keeps appearing at the same spot no matter how many times I disband him.


Just for giggles, if you want to, try and stack 9 units in that hex after you disband him next time. Not that you have 9 useless units, but maybe corps or army HQ's. Then we can see if that changes his idea on where to reconstruct.

As I said in an earlier post, we have since set them to 'fixed' at Berlin, so maybe in your next game you won't have to deal with this situation. Of course, in your next game you will probably then never have one of thos units get eliminated or retreated. It has something to do with Murphy, I think.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 9:46:25 AM)

I'm just about finished the game I think - T46 and I have units adjacent to Moscow from the East & Stalingrad from north and south so it won't be long now......

A couple of points about Elmer's priority settings - not sure how much is changeable but it might be of use....

During hte mud turns Elmer heavily reinforced the Arctic and Leningrad areas to the extent of maybe a couple of dozen divisions - but put them in really bad positions - invading the Karelian Isthmus over Lake Lagoda with about 8 divisions/brigades, and a dozen more further north - these were pretty much suicide missions - the bridge by Belomorsk highlighted in this shot is broken and Elmer never seems to have even tried to fix it, and the Leningrad attack made it to the outskirts, but a massive stack was blown to pieces by naval artillery - losing up to 25% of 800+ rifle squads in one combat alone.

Meanwhile the approaches to stalingrad only had a handful of isolated units along the road/rail lines that were no problem at all.

The forces west of Moscow also got themselves isolated pretty easy - they kept trying to move forwards into contact with the Axis troops there, allowing them to be easily surrounded.

I don't know what can be done about setting offensive/defensive priorities for Elmer, but it was a bit too agressive in the wrong places in this game IMO.

Anyway - some shots from north to south....

The arctic - the highlighted bridge is blown & no effort made to repair it.



[image]local://upfiles/994/551CDABB11244E109ADDF7A087D20081.jpg[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 9:49:09 AM)

Leningrad - only the remnants of the counter attack are shown...along with a reconstituted battleship of course! :)



[image]local://upfiles/994/C3D1575ABF644351BF2AED0415366091.jpg[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 9:52:11 AM)

Moscow - the defensive unit in Moscow is pretty large & I don't have much artillery there, but I'm confident 3-4 Pz & Pz-Gren divisions will be enough to take it anyway....

[image]local://upfiles/994/4DD220C8AC8C4C26982546E8796042C2.jpg[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 10:00:59 AM)

And Stalingrad - the paratroopers landed just last turn to cut off the northern and southern rail lines, and SS Wiking hasn't moved yet this turn.

The Soviet units seen in these screen shots comprise about90% of all soviet units I can see at the moment - there is only a light scattering of occasional brigades & divisions visible across the entire remainder of the map - there is essentially nothing visible between Moscow & Stalingrad.

[image]local://upfiles/994/39936589CFC44C11893473AA4C0FBF4B.jpg[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 2:56:55 PM)

Thanks for the great info SMK, you hit on a lot of good points.

Turns 103-113. With units becoming available from the Leningrad area, I moved off to the east where about 40 hexes from Leningrad there is a line of lakes and rivers that can provide some sort of stop line. Case Blau is over so I'm back to normal supply and shock.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/A8D2124BE57342FBBB63F0E538611DEB.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 3:12:07 PM)

Turns 113-120. Leningrad has some strong artillery units supporting its' defense so I took some heavy casualties clearing the city. But now that is done with my lines have shortened up and some Finn divisions are looking for some place to go. Off to the east of Leningrad I've closed up on my stop line and Vologda and Yaraslavl (two production cities about 20 and 45 hexes north of Moscow) are close by, so I will go after them. It is August '42 and I know there is some mud coming in about 16 turns, so for now I am going to busy myself with reorganising my lines so I can get as many divisions free as possible. I have to start preparing for operations in the southern part of the map. Elmer has been left alone down there for a long time, and I'm curious to see what he's got.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/E0E2A75EC17C423FB875C189F2E02FFF.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 3:27:25 PM)

South and south-east of Moscow. At one point I was several hexes forward of these postions, but while I've been busy up north, Elmer has been pushing me back. When you see stacks like the one in the inset, it gets a little scary, but Elmer is overall too weak at this point of the scenario to really be any threat. A one hex defensive line is usually good enough, but it's a good idea to have a few units hanging about behind the front. If Elmer does punch a hole he loves to send tank and cavalry brigades shooting thru.

Around turn 110 I noticed that Elmer was blowing bridges right near the front, and he has repaired ones that I have blown and left behind.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/DB5B732187BE4E86A321DB657DC40FA7.jpg[/image]



Karri -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 3:43:27 PM)

Would you happen to have any saves available? It's just that playing the first dozen turns are always so time consuming...



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 6:16:02 PM)

I've got each of my turns from this current game saved. You are welcome to have any of those if you like. However, I started this game on October 13, and there have been tons of changes since then. Some of the others have gotten later files, so maybe one of those has made it thru the opening phase.



Karri -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 7:01:12 PM)

I was hoping something before Moscow or Leningrad fell. I wanted to test if the Computer can push me away from the historical conquests.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 7:22:11 PM)

I think it's too early in the scenario at that point to expect Elmer to have that kind of success. We can argue that the historical Soviet '41 winter offensive pushed the Axis back, but when we play the Axis side in this scenario we don't end up in the same position as the Axis historically put themselves in in front of Leningrad and Moscow.



Silvanski -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/11/2009 7:36:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Does freeezing happen that far south?


I believe it does, when it gets cold enough. The Kerch straits would freeze, therefore any shallow hexes north of there would also freeze.


The Kerch Strait does freeze indeed..
Check out this passage in Soviet Documents on the Use of War Experience By Harold Steven Orenstein

http://books.google.com/books?id=gDvct4XI3MkC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=kerch+strait+freezing&source=web&ots=jijwoyhWTn&sig=_0c4DXApfgPe-0MWlBXDGFMbOJQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result



Karri -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/12/2009 9:36:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think it's too early in the scenario at that point to expect Elmer to have that kind of success. We can argue that the historical Soviet '41 winter offensive pushed the Axis back, but when we play the Axis side in this scenario we don't end up in the same position as the Axis historically put themselves in in front of Leningrad and Moscow.


Let me clarify: I wouldn't advance beyond the historical lines.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/12/2009 12:11:58 PM)

But I'm still not clear as to what you are saying. Is it that you want to see if Elmer can reproduce the Soviet success in the winter '41 offensive? If that's it, what I'm saying is, to be fair to Elmer, the Axis would have to be in the same position they were historically, low supply, low replacements, in unprepared positions and unable to move. No human would play in a way to put the Axis in that position. This isn't a Barbarossa simulation, this is a 'what could you have done different if you were in charge of the Axis' simulation. On the other hand, maybe I am completely missing what you are saying. [:(]



Karri -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/12/2009 9:16:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

But I'm still not clear as to what you are saying. Is it that you want to see if Elmer can reproduce the Soviet success in the winter '41 offensive? If that's it, what I'm saying is, to be fair to Elmer, the Axis would have to be in the same position they were historically, low supply, low replacements, in unprepared positions and unable to move. No human would play in a way to put the Axis in that position. This isn't a Barbarossa simulation, this is a 'what could you have done different if you were in charge of the Axis' simulation. On the other hand, maybe I am completely missing what you are saying. [:(]


Well, not quite in those positions(low supply&replacements, unable to move). But I wouldn't caputre the important cities(Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, or anythign beyond historical advance) and leave the AI with plenty of production and units and see if it can use them to good effect(ie to any succees).



fogger -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/13/2009 12:54:56 AM)

I am currently on turn 83 which is a “Thaw turns roads to mud and hinders all operations”. I have found that when I move some air units they will not move directly to the new airfield if there is a hex which has reverted to soviet control in their path. The air units hit the soviet hex and stops. For example if I want to move from point A to D the unit will not directly go there. I have to go to B, C, D, H, J etc. This appears to be mainly in my deep rear areas where I have few or no units or where I do not have a solid front line.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/13/2009 4:42:35 AM)

Yeah I had the same in the 1st 10 turn mud-break - there's no offensive ops allowed, so air units are not allowed to transit over hexes you do not own such as river hexes you haven't converted, or sea hexes.

Another small point - I haven't seen any Soviet partisans at all in the 1st 46 turns.....I'm pretty sure htere were a couple of units already in FITE?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/13/2009 5:40:26 AM)

Air unit movement during cease-fire/mud turns.

During these turns no friendly unit can move thru enemy controlled hexes, so air units will not cross any major river or water hexes in enemy control. The major river hexes are easy to identify and convert, but the water hexes are not, as it's not readily apparent as to who 'owns' them. For anyone who wants to know, here's the short version of how the ownership of water hexes takes place. When a map is created, all hexes are owned by player 1 by default. Once the map is complete and units are placed, an 'auto-ownership' feature can be run in the editor, allowing the computer to convert hex ownership based on unit deployment. However, this does not affect water hexes, so they all remained 'Soviet owned'. We manually converted all the water hexes on the 'Axis side' of the map in order to reduce the effect on air units during cease turns, but there are still cases where the player will run into this. A friendly naval unit moving thru a water hex will convert it, but there are many areas on the map where this is not possible.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/13/2009 5:56:38 AM)

Soviet partisans.

In FitE, the way that I played the partisan game was to use security and mp units to surround them. Then I could leave them be and concentrate on the game. Occasionally one would attack and break out, and I'd have to spend the time moving my little units to chase around his little units until they were surrounded again. Destroying them does nothing as they only came back later.To me this was all a big waste of time. The only effect that partisans have is to tie up my security and mp units, while wasting my time. I think that every player has noticed that as the scenario progressed, you have to devote more and more of your units to 'fighting' partisans as more of them appeared. So for the original v653 I came up with a schedule for removing German security and mp units as the scenario progressed, while taking the Soviet partisan units out of the oob. To me, this had the same overall effect, but greatly increased the playability. This feature carried over to D21. I know some players are fans of the partisans and don't like this, but most players have been in agreement with the change. Also of importance was the fact that removing the partisans created several unit slots for the Soviet side, and these are definately needed whenever they can be found.

The partisans that arrive for the Soviet summer '44 offensive are still in, so if anybody makes it that far, watch your rear!



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/13/2009 6:18:17 AM)

Cease fire turns.

I just remembered that the original files that were sent out didn't contain the manually converted water/sea hexes. This occurred on 11-15-08, so files dated prior to that will experience more of the 'air units not crossing water hexes' during the cease turns. If you are playing with one of the early files, a friendly naval unit can convert those sea hexes, although you can't visibly tell when they are converted.

Not just because of this issue, but under consideration is the elimination of the cease fire turns, replacing them with negative shock. I'm no fan of negative shock, but after my recent experience with 11 turns of 80% shock after the Typhoon offensive, I am leaning towards shock being a better model of the mud turns than the cease fires. I plan to take the Citadel TO, which comes up around turn 190, in order to experience prolonged negative shock again. The main consideration would be that during mud/cease fire turns, there is no chance of the enemy interfering with you, while you can move unrestricted thru friendly territory. During mud/negative shock turns, supply goes down, unit strengths are reduced, movement and combat are greatly restricted (but still possible in a limited capacity).

If anybody else has experience with or thoughts on extended (10 turns) heavy negative shock and its' effect on the scenario, we'd like to hear.

Thanks.



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