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John 3rd -> Society Raid (2/16/2009 3:42:09 AM)

Nice work down here:



[image]local://upfiles/18041/813273A91BDB4C3CBAF2DE297F142E24.jpg[/image]




John 3rd -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 3:43:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

How many goats and kids did you sacrifice?


[:D][8D][:D]

My eldest was a little nervous but I THINK he is still around...John? John?? John??? Uh-Oh...

Do NOT call Social Services! I have enough trouble as is...




2ndACR -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 3:45:02 AM)

I take it you decided to go the overland route or did you go for direct invasion?




John 3rd -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 3:52:41 AM)

Overland!  Brad figured that would work out.  We took 2 Brigades and a TK Reg.

On the same day we attacked Singapore with 4 Inf Div, 1 Brig, 3 Eng Reg, 3 TK Reg, and a crapload of other units against Forts 3.  Waht happens you ask???

o----1   God Blessed **&*&^%&$))+  Forts stay at 3.

I have suggested to Brad we import the entire China Army to see if we can defeat FORTRESS Singapore.  What CRAPOLA...




2ndACR -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 3:58:06 AM)

Well, there is a small trick you can do.......bombard with divs and shock attack with just the engineers. IIRC, that will knock forts down every time. The engineers can get a bit busted up though. (note: this is considered gamey by alot)

Are you shock attacking or deliberate? Shock attack will almost always knock down a fort level if you have 2X the AV.

Bombard, bombard and then when everyones fatigue and disruption hit 20-30, hit her again with a big shock attack.




John 3rd -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 4:12:40 AM)

We have been Del Attacking and for this last one I ordered a Shock Attack.  We have nearly 3-1 in AV over them.  Result---0-1 Forts remain.





2ndACR -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 4:51:55 AM)

Supply good? Got an HQ in the hex? Run a battleship bombardment into Singapore.......disrupt the heck out of them......time it so you shock attack the turn the bombardment hits.




John 3rd -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 5:10:31 AM)

We'll try a BB Bombardment.  We'll also up the number of bombers hitting troops from 150 to 250.  That should help too...




2ndACR -> RE: VERDICT: Palembang--Oil (2/16/2009 5:22:29 AM)

Only BB's......NO CA's!!!!!!!!! The CA's will get pounded........remember to escort not bombard.




modrow -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 8:50:30 AM)

Nemo,

as always, thanks for your interesting thoughts (and the interesting pointer to Lanchesters Law, have to read up on it). You provide very good "brainfood". The numbers/odds lesson is something I think I do start to absorb.

I also recognize more and more what you mean when you talk about the importance of phasing, but am still far from getting a firm grasp on the topic. I'll need more lessons/examples [;)]

I am particularly interested in two of the issues you mentioned:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
...

2. Derby, Broome etc... These aren't killing blows and they aren't setting up truly strategically significant killing blows. As such I wouldn't bother with them. When you have the potential superiority enjoyed by the Japanese in this game you should disdain swordplay and, instead, like any good Samurai look for a single, clean killing stroke.



I was under the impression that this is to a large extent a maskirovka-operation, drawing attention away from the area the real strike is aiming at. Of course, an important question is whether the timing of this operation is right. Actually, I am not sure about that - at least if this was on a tactical level, I would think it is too early, a few days would do. For an attempt to influence the strategic allocation/use of assets by the Allies, I am not sure whether timing is that bad.

Perhaps someone could provide some thoughts re. timing of deceptive ops...

Furthermore, I am actually completely undecided whether one should consider a quick reinforcement of Australia in this situation something that I would like to see on the Allies agenda. The fast way to reinforce in the situation the Allies were in would have been moving assets from India. This is probably good if it was lcu's, but would the RN moving to Australia have been something good or bad ? No interference with the invasion vs. no chance to destroy it now. Any thoughts anyone (I am aware that the raid on Colombo may have made this issue less relevant for this game) ?

quote:


Overall I think the Japanese in this game are playing a very good game but I think that they really need to re-adjust the balance of parallel to series operations and need to look at Lashio. If I was playing as Allies here not taking Lashio would see Burma in my hands within 2 months and a concerted thrust to reinforce India and also push through the trails into Thailand etc within 3 months. That would prevent India falling and give the Allies victory 12 to 18 months earlier than would otherwise be possible. Lashio MUST be contested.


Someone mentioned below already what came to my mind as well: How does one keep those forces supplied ? Anyone out there with experience whether this works and what supply sources / supply numbers need to be available to pursue this option ?

As always, thanks to everyone sharing his experience and to the hosts of this AAR for providing a basis for interesting discussion !

Hartwig




Canoerebel -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 1:42:37 PM)

John and Q-Ball have done an excellent job "imperiling" Australia in order to affect their opponent's strategic thinking.  John followed a very similar course of action with me, and it froze me pretty good.  Getting reinforcements to Australia from West Coast this early in the game is tough - it's a long way; plus the presence of the KB in the Societies let's them know any effort could be contested.  Moreover, they have to be worried about India, too, so they probably don't feel free to ship reinforcements from that direction.

They're in great shape if, as 2ndACR posits, the failure to take Lashio isn't critical.  I think it is.  We'll see who's right.  Their invasion of India will be fun to watch.  John flooded Australia and nearly took it from me.  I think he and Q-Ball will either succeed, or come close, to taking India.




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 2:41:42 PM)

I'm with canoerebel... The failure to take ( or contest ) Lashio is critical. 8 x Chinese Armies with an average strength of 400 = 3,200 AV x 50 Exp x 50 for leader exp and inspiration etc = max assault AV of 1600. Using the forest to give you a defensive bonus this means that putting 600 AV ( 2 divisions ) into Lashio will prevent the Chinese from moving past it.


Hartwig,

Maskirovka... The timing all depends on what you want to do. I developed my threat along the Noumea/New Zealand axis slowly for 4 months in order to draw the Allied navy and ground troops where I wanted them. I then struck decisively on only THREE occasions and in so doing destroyed 2 US Divisions and 4-5 Oz/Nz Brigades, 1 USN CV and 5 BBs + 300 or so planes. The total cost to my forces for this destruction was the loss of some 100 army bombers bombing Noumea and slightly over a dozen of my CV-based fighters and about 30 strike planes.


At other times maskirovka can simply be a one day dash into range. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve.


As re: Oz.... Those bases are so meaningless that as the Allies I wouldn't even bother contesting them. If the Allies reinforce Oz in response to these invasions then the Allies are guilty of a strategic error of the first order. You just don't respond to ever enemy action. You sit, you bide your time and you wait for decisive opportunities. Then, when you strike you create a lot of havoc. Running around from place to place in response to an enemy who has interior lines is a quick path to defeat.


As re: india.... I landed 15 divisions + 500 AV of tanks + 500 aviation support in Ceylon and India. That required about 50,000 tons of supplies just to operate at normal combat levels. I brought 100,000 tons of supplies and that was sufficient for me to take India. Obviously though things were tight and one reason I was able to get away with so few supplies was that I had planned my assault to split the enemy ( reducing their ability to resist and thus minimising my need for supplies ) and also to take a few key supply-producing areas quickly.

I'd also point out that you'll be able to maximise your efficiency of supply utilisation per unit time AND over the course of the war if you max out your combat power and supply delivery to the chief axis of advance. Again, the Lanchester Laws speak to this.


last thing about the Allies reinforcing Oz given the phasing of ops here. Clausewitz said it best, "Order, counter-order, disorder." This is incredibly germain here and is yet another reason why, as Allies, I wouldn't move toward Oz.

The Allies should sit tight knowing that any operations against Oz currently under way aren't critical and thus are highly likely to represent a maskirovka which is being done on the cheap. They are gathering around India and they should have faith in their strategic vision. Sometimes the worst thing to do is second-guess yourself. In my games vs 2ndACR and Damian my fleet spends 80%+ of its time in port and only a minority of my aerial units are ever in action. It's all about efficiency and one of the efficiencies you should attempt to enact is efficiency of thought and decision. Think well once and then don't second-guess yourself, it only wears out your planes and ships.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 5:55:25 PM)

Yikes, I feel like I'm back in physics class, my learned professor is giving golden instruction, and I'm such a ignorant peon that I'll never be able to reach the exalted level at which the master sits!




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 6:36:31 PM)

Canoerebel,

Umm, well that wasn't my intention at all. I felt I was asked to clarify and so I did so.... I was trying to be helpful but it seems I've caused offence.

Time to crawl back under my rock methinks...


If anyone wants to continue to discuss these things please feel free to post in my AAR and I'll respond there. I don't want people thinking I'm trying to hijack other threads.




John 3rd -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 6:46:03 PM)

Nemo,

Don't retreat under the rock.  Your advice is always welcome and highly valued.  I am sure Dan wasn't offended.

Your perspective in how you play this game is so different from most players I LOVE reading it and thinking on it.  Makes for great learning and discussion just like in the Forlorn Hopes AAR!  Dan--You asked about the defeat I inflicted on your Fleet when moving into Hokkaido this is the man who provided the idea of the massed Fighter Ambush.

John






Canoerebel -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 7:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Canoerebel,

Umm, well that wasn't my intention at all. I felt I was asked to clarify and so I did so.... I was trying to be helpful but it seems I've caused offence.

Time to crawl back under my rock methinks...


If anyone wants to continue to discuss these things please feel free to post in my AAR and I'll respond there. I don't want people thinking I'm trying to hijack other threads.


Oops, Nemo, it seems that my attempt at "eloquence" only misled you. What I meant to convey was: You really know you're stuff, and I can learn a great deal from you.




John 3rd -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 7:53:19 PM)

HAH!  I know my fiendish opponent well enough to read his words for what he meant.  Let us keep the brainstorming rolling.  OUtside opinions are always welcome and any conversation that leads to--dare I say--knowledge is a VERY good thing!




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 8:06:25 PM)

Oops, sorry Canoerebel... I guess that points up a difference in phraseology. In Ireland if you called someone a peon ( and they understood what you meant ) you'd be in a physical fight in seconds... Post-colonial baggage. Obviously it mustn't have the same connotations in the US.   So, when I saw you referring to yourself as a peon I thought you felt insulted --- which I wouldn't want.

Out of interest.... Does peon carry any significant negative connotations in the US?  Or is it just another word without a colonial subtext?




ny59giants -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 8:59:45 PM)

Nemo,
As another mental health professional, we both know that words carry only part of the message. It's hard to get vocal tone and body language from someone's words on this message board.

I have used the word "peon," but it is usually done in a sarcastic manner with those I know well enough to know it will not be taken seriously.

Remember, I speak American, not English. Now my dialect is more "Southernese" as I have been down south since '92. [:D]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 9:10:20 PM)

"Peon" is a neutral word in the Southeastern United States where I live.  The context and tone may make it humorous (as I intended), or it could be used negatively to connote "a person of lesser stature."  But it isn't "fightin' words" down here by any means. 




John 3rd -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 9:44:41 PM)

I love language and its varied meanings!  What works in one region of the country or in another nation doesn't elsewhere.  Always remember Shaw's great quote that the American and English were were a common people separated only by a common language.

Dan--I sent the turn to you quite a while ago.  Did you not get it?

Those two Inf Div could move up to Lashio as a blocking move but I truly fear his units in Mandalay coming down BEHIND my position.  Don't think 35th Brigade would be enough to hold the hex...




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 9:47:11 PM)

Ah, it may be an Irish thing then... It carries hints of British rule with it to my mind. They viewed us as peons so if I called anyone a peon it'd be tantamount to me saying I wanted to fight them. Interesting how the word travels differently.


Canoerebel, thanks for correcting me on what you meant. I utterly misinterpreted what you said. The fault was mine. Now, back to regular programming.


A contemplation on the Lanchester Laws as they relate to logistics and phasing.

Assume that an attacker has 10 divisions requiring 20,000 tons of supply per month to keep in fighting trim. The attacker wishes to subdue two regions, each of which is defended by 4 divisions worth of troops ( taking into account the multiplying effects of defences etc ). For this example we must assume that the two forces involved are "ordinary" and not extraordinary forces ( which, by Soviet definitions, act as force multipliers )

If one devotes less than 4 units to one invasion then one will be deadlocked on the beaches ( or driven back into the sea ). So, the minimum you can devote to a holding invasion is 4 divisions. This leaves 6 divisions to attack the second target ( we'll call this B ). let's assume each "round" of combat takes 1 week and then see where we are.

B: 6 divisions vs 4 divisions = 36 vs 16 ( as per Lanchester Squared Laws ). We'll assume each divisions deals out 1/10th of its combat power in damage per week.

Round 1: 36 vs 16  -> (36-1.6) vs ( 16 - 3.6) = 34.4 vs 12.4 ..... Supplies consumed = 3,000 tons ( 2,000 x 6 divided by 4 )
Round 2: 34.4 vs 12.4 -> (34.4 - 1.24 ) vs (12.4 - 3.44) = 33.2 vs 9 .... Supplies consumed 2866 tons
Round 3: 33.2 vs 9 -> 32.3 vs 5.8.... Supplies consumed 2692 tons.

This continues on for 2 more rounds. resulting in about 31.5 Japanese combat units remaining. This equates to 5.6 divisions. total consumption will fall just a bit short of 14,000 tons and take 5 weeks to conclude.


In the meantime the 4 divisions facing eachother on island B will batter eachother from a combined combat total of 16 to 9. Thus the 4 IJA and 4 Allied divisions will be reduced to 3 IJA and 3 Allied divisions.

When the 5.6 new IJA divisions land the 8.6 IJA divisions will quickly overmatch the 3 Allied divisions as follows:
74 vs 9. Combat should take no more than 10 days to resolve and result in the destruction of all Allied divisions and a further 10% of an IJA divisions.

In total 8 Allied divisions will be destroyed by 10 IJA divisions at a cost of 1.5 IJA divisions over the course of 6.5 weeks. Supply consumption during combat will be about 120,000 tons.


Going 5 vs 4 in each island results in marginally better results with about 1.4 divisions being destroyed but overall combat taking even a little longer ( although mostly in mopping up operations ). One can also expect that damage to infrastructure from two relatively evenly matched foes will be severe. The benefit of going in 5 vs 4 is that since you aren't accepting deadlock somewhere you don't HAVE to transfer in the forces from island A to take Island B and, as such, this sort of overmatch is useful if you expect to conduct a rolling campaign along two disparate axes.


Going in 10 divs vs 4 in island A and then 10 vs 4 in Island B yields the following results....
Island A falls in 10 days, Island B falls in just over 11. Total losses to the IJA in BOTH island campaigns is under 0.25 of a division. Total supplies consumed is barely 60,000 tons AND the infrastructure of Islands A and B are likely to be a LOT less damaged than when the force correlation is less favourable to the attacker.


Also of great importance IF you've got your sums wrong is the fact that by bringing 10 divs you so overmatch the enemy that even if he has 6 units per island they STILL fall easily.



So, the question of force correlation and phasing ( in parallel or in series ) is CRUCIAL to determining the strategic paradigm under which you are going to operate and I think often people wonder why their offensives stall when, by looking at the Lanchester Laws, their axes of advance, their phasing AND the implications of all of the above in terms of logistics they could keep things rolling. They key point is that by overmatching the enemy significantly and thus allowing you to run MORE operations in series in a given unit time than you can run operations in parallel you can actually either:

a) achieve the same objectives in a shorter time and at less cost in terms of supplies or
b) achieve more objectives within the same timeframe and supply cost.
c) or some variation thereof.

I think that when you look at a lot of AARs you can see that these interplays haven't been fully thought through.


I'll give an example of this with maskirovka....
Noumea vs 2nd ACR... By reinforcing a subsidiary axis such that it slightly overmatched the enemy ( a 5 vs 4 situation ) I was able to create a maskirovka in which that very slight overmatch drew more and more enemy forces into action ( since the 5 vs 4 nature of the combat promised a bloody deadlock if only it could be turned into a 5 vs 5 )... Of course I took a tithe of any enemy shipping which attempted to reinforce the island and as soon as a reinforcement landed to make it 5 vs 5 I landed another unit from my ready reserve to turn it into a 6 vs 5.

By not overmatching significantly the tantalising possibility of victory/deadlock was held out until such time as a significant enemy force was committed --- and that enemy committment made MY maskirovka convincing. In short the enemy did my own deception work for me by committing to the area ---- at which time I brought my main force to bear and quickly crushed the enemy base ( it took 3 days from the initial assault to its capture with tens of thousands of captives IIRC ).


So, my maskirovka involved phasing and strict adherence to the Lanchester Laws to create the appropriate force correlations at the appropriate times to both bolster my maskirovka and then deliver the killing blow so that operations against Nz could be commenced quickly. That, IMO, is a reasonable example of the interplay of phasing, Lanchester Laws and maskirovka.


Obviously I'm sure there are better examples out there but that's the best I can come up with right now [8D]




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 9:50:12 PM)

John,

If this is your question --- Will the Allies attack from Lashio or Mandalay? --- then you need to either build a strong defence in Burma which can hold them both off IF they combine long enough for a landing in India to cut them off from behind

OR

you need to land more troops in Burma in order to create a strong defensive position or, ideally, push the Allies out of Lashio and Mandalay.


If you don't take care of Burma you are going to find it drawing troops away from your Indian invasion at just the point in time that those troops are fully committed.




John 3rd -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 10:03:09 PM)

I'll see what Brad thinks regarding this topic.  Perhaps we could pull a Brigade or two into Burma to strengthen the defense and enable us to move to Lashio.  This would probably be workable since we have two available Brigades in Palembang now.  Might be enough to hold things together while we get everything else moving in India...





ny59giants -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 10:51:16 PM)

My interruption of what Nemo is saying, is it may be more cost effective for you to sent in another Bde to Division worth of troops to pull more of the the Allies into Burma and away from India. If the Allies feel that you are going for the land route to conquer Burma, then they may bring in more troops.




vettim89 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 11:02:32 PM)

My only question about Nemo's very well written post would be in game terms does Prep points or the lack thereof have an effect on the Lanchester equation? In the parallel example it would be assumed that both forces would be fully prepped for their objectives. In the series example units would be fully prepped for the first invasion but minimally preppedd for the second barring a substantial pause. Especially with island landings the second invasaion will suffer more causualties and take more time due to high disruption levels suffered during the landings.

Nemo, do you feel that prep points are a force multiplier at all?

(BTW, you just changed the way I am going to play out the next six months of my game)




Nemo121 -> RE: The Society Page (2/16/2009 11:14:14 PM)

vettim, glad to be of help... If you want to post a precis in your AAR I can have a look at it and comment... I'm due for a 56 hour shift from Wednesday morning to Friday afternoon so will welcome some relaxing reading after.


Prep points are a force multiplier insofar as they boost AV but if you and your opponent are equally strategically savvy prep points should cancel out. As a result I tend not to account for them in any assessment of achievable AV for two reasons:
1. I am often prepping units for my second phase targets while landing on the beaches of the first phase target.
2. Strategic misdirection should prevent the enemy from prepping for precisely the correct target most of the time ( unless, of course, the enemy is prepping units for atolls etc ) and enemy units who are prepped for Batavia when you are really going to land at Kragen and split the enemy defences are rendered irrelevant.

Mostly though the first point tends to cancel out any preparation points the enemy has. If you want though you can just add in a small multiplier to their base strength ( which is then squared ) to account for any assumed advantage in prep points if you choose to draw a different assumption on prep point balance.


In addition I would point out that there are ways and means to prevent high losses to landing forces under even the most adverse conditions.

E.g. Use BBs, CAs etc as fast transports and you can combat-land a division off fast transports in a day quite easily with minimal disruption and loss ( a lot less loss than when coming ashore from APs anyways ). If you've taken a nearby point base to which you can return for the next division you can easily land 4 divisions on an atoll over 12 days or so, find those 4 divisions in excellent form and then take it. You don't HAVE to land your troops from APs into the teeth of enemy fire. Don't be constrained by the conventional wisdom.

In addition air attack on ports etc can really cut landing losses.




ny59giants -> RE: The Society Page (2/17/2009 12:48:37 AM)

If memory serves me right, didn't the Americans use APDs for Fast Transport mission in the Solomons after G'canal was captured?? Using Zeros or P-38s for LRCAP should help either side protect the "big boys."




Canoerebel -> RE: The Society Page (2/17/2009 2:19:16 AM)

In Watchtower, the Americans landed Raiders (I think at Tulagi and Florida) using APDs, then used the APDs to shuttle troops between those islands and Guadalcanal.




modrow -> RE: The Society Page (2/17/2009 4:49:23 AM)

Nemo,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121


A contemplation on the Lanchester Laws as they relate to logistics and phasing.

...

Obviously I'm sure there are better examples out there but that's the best I can come up with right now [8D]


Thanks a lot for this excellent post ! Very instructive for me !

Hartwig




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