Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (Full Version)

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hermanhum -> Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 1:25:35 AM)

quote:

The future of games development has been called into question after the EU Commission suggested developers provide a two year guarantee.

[snip]

At present, licensed software is exempt from EU legislation that forces firms to offer "a minimum 2-year guarantee on tangible movable consumer goods".

[snip]

At present, retailers are not obliged to give a refund on a video game that has a bug or glitch that prevents a user completing a game. If the proposals become law, this could change as users would have the right "to get a product that works with fair commercial conditions".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8044125.stm



Awac835 -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 11:40:25 AM)

That will never happen, or atleast it will be impossible to enforce it.




Grell -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 12:09:31 PM)

I hope it does happen.

Regards,

Grell



Zakhal -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 12:51:33 PM)

Tabula rasa and hellgate comes to mind.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 1:42:25 PM)

If only we could get a two year guarantee on government working as expected...



Phatguy -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 1:45:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If only we could get a two year guarantee on government working as expected...


Well thats just silly...........



Perturabo -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 2:01:15 PM)

It looks like the days of releasing half-finished games for full price are coming to end[:D].



Sarge -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 3:04:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

It looks like the days of releasing half-finished games for full price are coming to end[:D].


If anything this 'guarantee' will have an adverse effect on pricing in the EU not the opposit.

One of two things will happen

1) Most if not ALL small companys will just stop selling to the EU

2) The price will reflect the opportunists looking for FREE entertainment.

Etherway you think game pricing is high now wait till there's preview entitlement.........[;)]



Obsolete -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 3:13:41 PM)

I see this being abused by one-time players.

However, I do wish this was available years ago before we had the internet to find what game is so horribly bugged up to hell. 

Anyone remember Action-52 and other scams back in the day?





Hard Sarge -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 4:26:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If only we could get a two year guarantee on government working as expected...


keep it up, and I am going to have to lock this post up, you know the rules !!!!




Hertston -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 4:42:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

keep it up, and I am going to have to lock this post up, you know the rules !!!!



The phrase 'hoist with your own petard' does indeed spring to mind! [:D]



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 5:11:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If only we could get a two year guarantee on government working as expected...



It would cost too much.....



Phatguy -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 5:15:43 PM)

I really think they are just trying to kick the evil empire down, We know which gaming one that is , right? 



E -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 5:42:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I really think they are just trying to kick the evil empire down, We know which gaming one that is , right?

Pong?



Lützow -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 6:29:04 PM)

Two years is immoderate but I'd consider a general right-of-return within 7 or 14 days as reasonable. Games which don't entertain beyond that timeframe are not worth the money.



Perturabo -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 6:32:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

If anything this 'guarantee' will have an adverse effect on pricing in the EU not the opposit.

I'm talking about customer rights, not about pricing here. Right now, a customer has to pay a full price, but the producer doesn't have to provide a finished product and doesn't need to inform the customer that he's buying an unfinished/faulty product.

Amusingly, I started a topic on CCS about the customers rights in gaming some time ago. It's funny how developers always use the same arguments to support their breaking of customer rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

1) Most if not ALL small companys will just stop selling to the EU

Actually, no one ever sells anything to the UE, because of those horrible customer rights *facepalm*.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

2) The price will reflect the opportunists looking for FREE entertainment.

You mean the opportunists that already use torrents to get the FREE entertainment?
Frankly, that whole "opportunists" argument is pure bullshit. It was invented by producers that know that if one copy of a game is faulty, then probably all the other copies are faulty too. Which means that they will have losses from mass returns or will have to mark all the copies as faulty, which would look bad on boxes.

After all who would like to buy a game who has a feature, like "crashes randomly", "faulty infantry/vehicle pathing", "musing graphic glitches", "crashes even on Playstation", etc.[:D]?



Phatguy -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 6:35:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: E


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I really think they are just trying to kick the evil empire down, We know which gaming one that is , right?

Pong?


HeHe...close but not the one i meant..and no, not the evil empire of vista but the one of the overblown blowhard who just retired



Sarge -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 6:37:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Two years is immoderate but I'd consider a general right-of-return within 7 or 14 days as reasonable. Games which don't entertain beyond that timeframe are not worth the money.


So your saying if the “individual” finds no personal entertainment value after 7-14 days irregardless of functionality of the software they should get their money back .




Terminus -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 7:27:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Two years is immoderate but I'd consider a general right-of-return within 7 or 14 days as reasonable. Games which don't entertain beyond that timeframe are not worth the money.


That post seems to have been less than thought through...



SireChaos -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 7:30:51 PM)

Since to my knowledge software does not degrade from use, a guarantee over a certain time period does not make much sense.

Two arrangements that, in my mind, would make sense are:

1) For a certain period - two years, for example - the producers have to devote a certain amount of resources to fixing bugs and customer support and stuff. Or alternatively, they have to pay for the cost of someone else fixing the bugs in their game. No more "We´ve earned enough with this one, we´re off to the next project, dear customer, sucks to be you".

2) Some definite rules are set up which sort of bugs give the customer the right to have his money back, as well as rules detailing that with certain bugs with impair but do not destroy gameplay, customers get part of their money back.



Lützow -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 7:31:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

So your saying if the “individual” finds no personal entertainment value after 7-14 days irregardless of functionality of the software they should get their money back.



Why setting individuals in quotation marks? Actually I was refering to typical videogames with an average playtime of about 20h, being sold for 50 bucks.

My personal stance is, that a full price game should have a long-term entertainment value.



Terminus -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 7:37:36 PM)

And then the videogame business would become a rental business, because nobody would ever buy a videogame to keep for longer than 13 days anymore. Nobody.



Lützow -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 7:51:08 PM)

Actually the game business 'is' a rental business where I live. As I can rent almost every mainstream title from video store, supposed it doesn't need a steam activation. However, I'm not advocating a free ride but would like to see more titles with longevity again, worth to be purchased.



Terminus -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/16/2009 8:09:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

The future of games development has been called into question after the EU Commission suggested developers provide a two year guarantee.

[snip]

At present, licensed software is exempt from EU legislation that forces firms to offer "a minimum 2-year guarantee on tangible movable consumer goods".

[snip]

At present, retailers are not obliged to give a refund on a video game that has a bug or glitch that prevents a user completing a game. If the proposals become law, this could change as users would have the right "to get a product that works with fair commercial conditions".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8044125.stm


This is another example of a knee-jerk reaction to a miscommunicated media story about an issue that they don't fully understand. The future of the gaming industry has been "called into question" after the EU commission "suggested developers provide a two-year guarantee"? Re-read it, and ask yourselves, "does this actually mean jack all squat"?

Hint: it doesn't.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 12:06:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

So your saying if the “individual” finds no personal entertainment value after 7-14 days irregardless of functionality of the software they should get their money back.



Why setting individuals in quotation marks? Actually I was refering to typical videogames with an average playtime of about 20h, being sold for 50 bucks.

My personal stance is, that a full price game should have a long-term entertainment value.

I agree with Sarge here. $50 for 20 hours entertainment is not a bad price.

And I would think he put "individual" into quotations because the length of time it takes a player to complete a game is only relative to the individual. If you bought Bioshock and played it in 20 hours and I bought it and played it in 40...the game is the same game...but I "appear" to have gotten more value out of it, right? Ergo the value is relative.



SireChaos -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 12:28:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

Since to my knowledge software does not degrade from use, a guarantee over a certain time period does not make much sense.

Two arrangements that, in my mind, would make sense are:

1) For a certain period - two years, for example - the producers have to devote a certain amount of resources to fixing bugs and customer support and stuff. Or alternatively, they have to pay for the cost of someone else fixing the bugs in their game. No more "We´ve earned enough with this one, we´re off to the next project, dear customer, sucks to be you".

2) Some definite rules are set up which sort of bugs give the customer the right to have his money back, as well as rules detailing that with certain bugs with impair but do not destroy gameplay, customers get part of their money back.


On second (or third) thought...

3) A kind of reverse-period guarantee is instituted: producers guarantee that, after a certain period (say, one month or three months) after it is published, a game is bug-free. Everyone who bought before that is compensated with a portion of the price for their work as beta-testers.



Sarge -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 1:33:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

So your saying if the “individual” finds no personal entertainment value after 7-14 days irregardless of functionality of the software they should get their money back.



Why setting individuals in quotation marks? Actually I was refering to typical videogames with an average playtime of about 20h, being sold for 50 bucks.

My personal stance is, that a full price game should have a long-term entertainment value.


Judge is correct, I was pointing out how your idea of warranty was a matter of individual opinion and imposable to regulate any number of exploitations.



pasternakski -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 2:23:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If only we could get a two year guarantee on government working as expected...

Let's not insert politics here again, okay?



pasternakski -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 2:31:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Judge is correct, I was pointing out how your idea of warranty was a matter of individual opinion and imposable to regulate any number of exploitations.

This is right on the money. Whose standard determines whether the software is "defective?" If the user's opinion is the benchmark, such a requirement opens all kinds of silly possibilities, not the least of which is Junior Johnny Rockstar's ability to buy a game, play it to exhaustion, then claim spuriously that it was defective and obtain a refund.

Underneath all this, I smell another surreptitious, European attempt to get into Microsoft's pants...



Doggie -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 8:15:52 AM)

The Kommisars at ther EU are now going to protect the proletariat from exploitation by the evil capitalists.

Yeah, that'll work.[8|]

All you "citizens of the world" should prepare yourself to pay double and triple what you're paying now, because the guardians of the working class will have to add on some more taxes to enforce the new age of enlightment.



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