RE: Why not free production? (Full Version)

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PyleDriver -> RE: Why not free production? (8/28/2009 8:29:26 PM)

How long are you guys going to beat a dead horse. It isn't going to happen...Sorry.



Stryder -> RE: WiTE (8/28/2009 8:59:52 PM)

Pyle, I don't want it to happen...(saw you replied to me)



Muzrub -> RE: Why not free production? (8/29/2009 8:13:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

How long are you guys going to beat a dead horse. It isn't going to happen...Sorry.


That might be the case- but it doesn't make it right.

People want more control these days, the systems we use can, and would handle a game being more complicated.
We're not dealing with Data tapes and Commodore 64's these days people!



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/29/2009 10:29:32 AM)

Well, in the standar edition production isnt free but in Generals Edition is free [:D]

The problem is that dont add something to have control over production give you a good game not a superb game and of course not a historical game because if the game is historical and you dont have historical orders... ummm in the game you can do all you want or you have to do historical orders like send panzers to Kiev??? if answer is no say no free production is historical is a bad joke [;)]





siRkid -> RE: Why not free production? (9/4/2009 5:51:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

How long are you guys going to beat a dead horse. It isn't going to happen...Sorry.



True, but as someone pointed out to me it's still a good place to discuss the pros and cons of the subject.



Stryder -> RE: Why not free production? (9/4/2009 11:57:05 AM)

why not create an Off Topic sub section and move threads like this into it?  as more and more people come to this forum as the release gets closer, threads like this may confuse them and keep the topic alive forever



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Why not free production? (9/4/2009 7:46:14 PM)

Too funny. You guys don't realize yet that the topic itself will never die. Despite what ever happens with the game.



Stryder -> RE: Why not free production? (9/4/2009 11:33:54 PM)

I realize it won't die.. [sm=dizzy.gif]   just thinking of a pragmatic solution...



sabre1 -> RE: Why not free production? (9/5/2009 2:47:43 AM)

There is no pragmatic solution. Some people wanted the ability to play with production and some don't. Some of us are just disappointed that production was not included like WIR. Not a deal breaker just disappointed.

It would have been nice if this issue was polled the way Jason Petho asked if JTCS Modern Campaigns should have a DCG, or individual Boot camp scenarios.

Gary and his team chose to leave this feature out. It is "his" game, and he is an artist when it comes to designing games. Artistic types are generally a little eccentric and think outside the box. Hopefully like WIR he has created another masterpiece. Time will tell.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Why not free production? (9/5/2009 2:56:53 AM)

from early Alpha, this has been a great game, I don't think you will find any tester who don't think so, this is going to be one of the great ones, it is just getting it to do what everyone wants it to do




bigmilt -> RE: Why not free production? (9/5/2009 7:08:24 PM)

For you guys who keep bringing up the Generals Edition you realize that is 4 - 5 years away at least.
1 game is at least 6 months out.
2 Matrix and 2 by 3 will want to get all the sales they can before they let anyone have the code probably 2 more years.
3 the work will be done by volunteers who have jobs and family's so another 18 -24 months at least.

So if you are waiting for the Generals Edition you have a long wait.



Muzrub -> RE: Why not free production? (9/6/2009 3:22:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigmilt

For you guys who keep bringing up the Generals Edition you realize that is 4 - 5 years away at least.
1 game is at least 6 months out.
2 Matrix and 2 by 3 will want to get all the sales they can before they let anyone have the code probably 2 more years.
3 the work will be done by volunteers who have jobs and family's so another 18 -24 months at least.

So if you are waiting for the Generals Edition you have a long wait.



You make it sound like their working from a shed out back in the yard......We are talking about a business aren't we, or just a few guys chugging beers on the weekend and typing a few lines of code, instead of whacking a golf ball about?

Dude who has 4 or 5 years, tech is changing pretty damn fast man- and here we still have counters on a map.

I hope your wrong on this though because- it aint gonna win them new fans, people expect a more rapid turn around these days (many companies create fantastic add-ons, and DLC, soon after release), and the release of code, in time- opens the doors to many exciting a new fan based versions of the game- keeping the game alive, without a great deal of company man hours.


I really do find the war gaming community are always prepared to just cop it on the chin when it comes to excuses- the fact we are the buyers, we create the interest by investing our time and money.
We accept poor graphics, limited player options and lengthy wait times with a high bill for the price of the game and excuse it all by saying-

Real grogs don't need graphics (eye candy), and the coding is really hard etc etc and you should be happy with what you got........

Guys we're looking forward to playing this game, but in reality it a Model T ford in the day and age of cruise control and self parking cars!

The fact is- if these types of companies don't evolve, they will die.

Then we'll all have nothing......... Not just no player controlled production.









bigmilt -> RE: Why not free production? (9/6/2009 5:35:52 PM)

If you read Joels post the generals edition will be like witp admirals edition - like I said a team of volunteers to do the job not a company.
If you read my points the base game out in say 6 months.. They arenot going to give up their code that they worked on for years right away so
like I said a year to two delay right there. Then like I said it is a volunteer force to do the job. Just like bob/btr volunteer force doing the same thing for over 3 years. NO offense inteaded Hard Sarge or Harley.



bigmilt -> RE: Why not free production? (9/6/2009 5:39:59 PM)

And I don't think the Generals Edition will be only just free production - somebody else will not like something and will
want another aspect or 2 or 3 of the game changed that's why I said 18 - 24 months.



jshan -> RE: Why not free production? (9/6/2009 8:12:13 PM)

I want to return to the Eastern front with Gary. This game won't need production IMHO. Sounds great already, and I agree that the time spent on the AI, supply, historical losses etc. is more useful.
My two cents.



Muzrub -> RE: Why not free production? (9/9/2009 7:12:21 AM)

The General edition- I imagine that comes at a cost?

ie buying the game again..



So in order to get free production- which I believe should have been an option in this version and adds to re playability:

ie At the start of the game tick a box for either play with production, or use historical production.

I don't think such an option is way out there...............



I would prefer not to have to buy the game again though.........Matrix branded games are a tad expensive.
So is it possible for the production be a free DLC, like many other companies do? Such as Valve



paullus99 -> RE: Why not free production? (9/9/2009 10:49:29 AM)

But, asking for "Free" from a fairly low margin, high cost (i.e. development time) industry doesn't make a lot of sense from an economic standpoint.

I'd prefer to see Matrix concentrate on remaining profitable, put out great games that lots of people want to play, and if certain individuals want to add a tweak here and there, let them. But, to ask for a full blown production model, to be done "free" is a little much.



Muzrub -> RE: Why not free production? (9/10/2009 8:43:41 AM)

Well whats the option?

Buy the game again when they do the Generals edition?
Or they release a DLC free, or at a small charge.

This is very concerning- I fear the game will be in danger of being a dinosaur before its even released.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Why not free production? (9/10/2009 9:25:38 AM)

I play WIR mostly without using control of production, this is how it would be for a more normal military high command structure. Eisenhower and MacArthur did not control production, they gave advice and made requests, but, most commanders have to make do with what they are given (that's the challenging bit). It was only because Hitler, as Head of State, also made himself supreme commander that brought production into the military command sphere. Play like Hitler and you lose, I prefer to imagine that he has taken a more normal role as Head of State, allowing for more operational flexibility and a non-historical, but better game. I am happy with what has been promised, but am also happy to see as many options as possible, if they were to become available later. [:)]



Capt Cliff -> RE: Why not free production? (9/14/2009 7:19:12 PM)

Didn't Napoleon try to run everything and the only thing he ran was "a muck"! The whole concept of a general staff to aid the supreme commander reinforces this. If you want to mod production do it from the get go and you can only do it once. Have a data file where you can modify this that and the other but once you start you got what you got. One thing that bothered me about WIR was how easily you could retool for a different tank or aircraft. Not real at all. What Ford did at Willow Run for the B-24 could never be dupicated by either the Russians or the Germans. One was too primative the other built everything like watches, hand made with leather seats and painted on the inside. No ... you fight the war with what you have. Tweak at the begining or not at all.



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 9:35:46 AM)

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]



Rasputitsa -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 3:19:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]



I know you don't want historical excuses, but could the Germans ever have had 5000/8000 of any AFV. It is said that there was never any more than a few hundred Tigers and Panthers, on any of the Fronts, at any one time. [:)]



Capt Cliff -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 7:00:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]



All this is a "What If" option anyway. But as far as the Panther is concerned Gunderian spotted the T-34 before the war when he was on a military mission to the USSR. But no one believed him that they, the Russians, could build such a tank. When the met it in combat they changed their tune. The Tiger falls into this category as well ... a reaction to Russian armor, the KV's I think for the Tiger. There is also the Me 262 as an air superiority fighter rather than a fighter bomber, another what if. But if you want to dink with production do it with the initial data file then fight the war. Your opponent get to do the same with his data file, assuming a face to face and not human vs computer, but either would work.

Time to crave this horse up and fire up the barbie ...



David The Great -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 7:48:15 PM)

Strange that the logic read here for not including the production feature is not used for the other monster games WITP and AE, in those games you can even produce the egine types for the planes you intend to build, you almost need a PhD in economics to keep you're industry going as Japanese player.
Why did the designers bother to include all this if it is not relevant ?
In my opinion you produce what you need, you have complete control over troops industry and strategy, no higher echelon dictators to tell you what you can or can not do, you do not fight with what you get, you fight with what you ordered to achieve you're strategic goals, be it offensive or defensive.
To bad , seems like this is like i've read in the Q and A , not a remake of WIR but just a game about the same subject , the east front.




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 8:01:16 PM)

I think this is shaping up a little more like a TOAW FiTE scenario than a separate game.



paullus99 -> RE: Why not free production? (9/15/2009 8:26:17 PM)

I'd reserve judgment - from all indications, this will be a monster game & land combat is going to be extremely detailed and complex in nature (much more so than the abstractions done in WiTP & AE).

I have faith that, coming from GG, this game will be in rich in detail as any of us could ask for - even without the production aspects.



Muzrub -> RE: Why not free production? (9/16/2009 8:53:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it, create early the PzIVg, leave PzIII producction and use PzIII chasis only for StugIIIF??? 5.000 panthers starting their use in Kursk (middle 1943) VS 8.000 PzIV but ready earlier when germans fight to win not fight to dont be defeated???

Again, armies start wars with the material that they have but dont end with the same material or in West allies use the Lee??? in the Pacific armor dont be "modern" and light tanks have a good actuation (Stuart).

PD: if they say that plan do a future game with producction dont add it in this game is a time problem and a way to sell 2 times the same game, dont search "historical" excuses [:-]



I know you don't want historical excuses, but could the Germans ever have had 5000/8000 of any AFV. It is said that there was never any more than a few hundred Tigers and Panthers, on any of the Fronts, at any one time. [:)]



Geewiz its not even a matter of historical argument- its a matter of options!

Its 2009- games have evolved.
They don't have to be so linear anymore.

Just allow the player to tick a box- historical or player control - its that easy!

Anything less is starting to become money grabbing.......... Unless a DLC is involved.
Even WIR allowed for production manipulation- and man that's as old as the hills.......







Sentinel Six -> RE: Why not free production? (9/16/2009 9:17:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Geewiz its not even a matter of historical argument- its a matter of options!

Its 2009- games have evolved.
They don't have to be so linear anymore.

Just allow the player to tick a box- historical or player control - its that easy!

Anything less is starting to become money grabbing.......... Unless a DLC is involved.
Even WIR allowed for production manipulation- and man that's as old as the hills.......



Why don't we have a poll to see if prospective players would like the option for production control. Like Mazrub I'd like to see an option to control production, if you don't want to don't tick the box. Seems strange that practically every other in depth strategy game (including Gary's other works) allow it but this one will not.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Why not free production? (9/17/2009 10:01:19 AM)

It has been made perfectly clear, many times in these posts, that there will be no control of production in WiTE. Additionally, the producers have not given any commitment to include it in any development of the game. I am not using historical arguments to agree, or justify that decision, I personally hope to see as much flexibility as possible in the game. However, recognising that this is how the game is going to be, I am making the best of it, by concluding that this is how it was for most commanders during WW2. Fight with what you're given and enjoy the game.

It would be nice to make the production decisions that Hitler failed to make and roll over your opponent, but very few High Commands had that option, so I can live with what we are going to get. I will buy the game and from what we have seen so far, it will be a good East Front experience, all the Beta Testers say so. I still have WIR running, if I need the whole 9 yards. [:)]



IronDuke_slith -> RE: Why not free production? (9/20/2009 1:46:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Do you refer to the panther option??? Tiger was a prewar idea but panther not, when germans find T-34/76 they start the panther program, well, what happend if germans dont do it,


But why wouldn't the Germans attempt to create a Tank to defeat the better enemy weapons they are encountering? Do you want to change things in ways that are reasonable or play fantasy Island???

I am more than happy to have a "Don't do Panther" option, provided the Germans suffer a morale penalty after the option is selected. How are the 8000 PZIVs going to feel about life knowing the new Rusian weapons from 1944 can hit them from all sorts of ranges, and will often be impervious in ways they weren't when Panther was around.




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