RE: Why not free production? (Full Version)

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David The Great -> RE: Why not free production? (8/2/2009 12:05:43 PM)

I regret that the production and other theatre HQ's will not be present, the game has the same scope as Witp and Admirals edition, those have the production feature, I felt it gave that extra witch made WIR stand out in comparison to all those other wargames about the subject.



MaraTheFinn -> RE: Why not free production? (8/11/2009 10:51:32 PM)

No production changes, no deal! [:@][:@][:@]

I remember the original WiE and it was FUN to play. I liked most how I could replace useless equipment with more sensible ones. Sister game War in the West was VERY DULL to play because player controlled equipment upgrades were just impossible.

I do not call for total production control. For example you do not need to give any option to start wartime production in Germany in 1941 in stead of 1942 (read: Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, ISBN: 978-0-141-00348-1). Make it possible to make some changes in production and I will buy the game otherwise I consentrate my gaming to WitP.



Stryder -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 1:31:20 AM)

amazing... you have already decided you won't buy a strategic war game because you can't change the tanks in it (and they will be replaced automatically)?
and that makes the game dull somehow?

to each his own.... you will be missing an awesome game...



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 10:03:19 AM)

Amazing, cant select the type of tanks (same for other weapons) that you can produce isnt a tactical choice??? producction is for me a part of a tactical game, we talk about the MOST important front of the WW2, think that east experience was the Panther mother, with no east front Panther never see the battlefield and Tiger the same, armies fight as their equipment can do, Germany change offensive equipment for defensive equipment in the late war and i think that it is a direct result of heavy casualties (more MGs for infantry units but less troops and btl in the divisions), the game is like WITP a what if because after... 1 month the historical way could be dead and has the producction close is like heeeeeeeeey you can do worst than historical but you cant change your producction to a best for you.

Another thing is add the option of free producction, if people can center in PzIVg after the first T-34 battles and dont produce the Panther because prefer a cheap, effective and more numerous tank is a tactical option.



Stryder -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 3:04:32 PM)

Hex, I am not sure what you are driving at?

The game will not have production choices, political choices, industrial prioritization--subs, flak, air, tanks, etc.... those items will follow the historical options.... there are a huge variety of items that could be discussed or wished for in the game... but they will not be in this game. Choices have to be made in any endeavor and they already have been made for WitE.

I view production choices as something that is administrative and truly not that interesting... I don't believe any front commander had much to control over what was produced. Guderian did later in the war but he no longer was in command of any troops.



knilli -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 3:19:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jfarber

Hex, I am not sure what you are driving at?

The game will not have production choices, political choices, industrial prioritization--subs, flak, air, tanks, etc.... those items will follow the historical options.... there are a huge variety of items that could be discussed or wished for in the game... but they will not be in this game. Choices have to be made in any endeavor and they already have been made for WitE.

I view production choices as something that is administrative and truly not that interesting... I don't believe any front commander had much to control over what was produced. Guderian did later in the war but he no longer was in command of any troops.


i see hex's point and to a certain extend it is the same as mine...though, it is too early to complain (on my behalf) as we do only have a few screenies. looking forward to more info and to dump the Pz II into the Hun/It/Rum units or even send them to the fins :) if i am allowed to change the equipment in the units :)

for my part i am looking forward to get more screenies and info from Joel and the testers.



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 4:48:34 PM)

Well, first of all say that i have a mistake, i refer to GGWITE as a tactical game, i want to say operational game, in tactical games (CM, CC) equipment is very very veeeeeeeeery important.

Second, i understand that today the game is a great ? for all, but read that no free production is good... ok, people want play a commander role, ok, but the engine can support a "god" player dream??? is another way to play the game.

I like a more direct game with no producction but after a time you could be doing the same and producction add a plus to the game, for example, change a division from PzIII-J or M to mixture of PzIVg+Panthers add first, have the new tanks, second take a time to have the division ready (i think in something like CM where good tanks with bad crews has malus in the battle) and third, what we can do with the old material??? use it in security divisions??? in Luftwaffe field divisions??? send them to our allies??? (i never understand why Germany dont send old Me109-E to Finland, if with Brewster, G-20, Hawks and MS406 has soviets in a bad situation...), try to recicle old material and has new weapons (i think in the german Panzerjäger, wespe...) as you can see play with material has interesting choices.

Well, the game of course is creators property but at least we can do suggestions [:'(]



MaraTheFinn -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 9:22:27 PM)

Well most wars arelost or won on the drawing board. R&D has a deep impact on any war. If game has all the ground and air units why not production. Germans made huge mistakes in production. War production started 1942. A few million Russian prisoners starved to dwath in Winter 41/42 and were wasted as labour. Judes were killed instead of used for labour. (Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, ISBN: 978-0-141-00348-1.) Germans used ME110 night-fighters and only a few superior He219s. Russians produced light tanks (T70, T80 ...) instead of heavies (T34, KV ...).

For me R&D and production add a reason to play large interesting games. I rather wait instead of having a DULL game. Whatever you think they will publish this game sooner than later. With just released WitP and forthcoming air war game (BtR) with their almost too detailed production I just skip this game. Make it possible to alter the production at least a little bit like in the old WitE game and I will buy this. That will not be too big workload for developers.

By the way I have always wonderded why US kept P40 in productin up to 1944. It was obsolete like P39 long before. The cost to produce P40 and P51 must be very close to each other. But I can live with that in WitP.



MaraTheFinn -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 9:37:09 PM)

I agree with the production as you can read from my other posts.

The problem for Germans was pilot quality. Finland had very good pilots and Luftwaffe had many planes. It is better to give new equipment to good pilots than to bad ones. Brewster or ME109 E gives bad results against new Russian planes (Yak9, La5 ...) starting 1943 even if used by good pilots. If I ever play this game I will give my best equipment to my best soldiers to get the best results.



siRkid -> RE: Why not free production? (8/12/2009 9:47:33 PM)

I know from the WitP discussions about waypoints that this topic will never die. I would just like to say, one more time, that you will be missing a great game if you let this one point prevent you from buying it. I also know from experience that once Joel and Gary have made a firm decision that they will not go back on it. So you can put money on it that this game will not have player control production. Maybe a team like the one that got together and did WitP AE will someday add it in, but it will not be in the release version.



timtom -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 1:15:50 AM)

I for one wouldn't want to play a game were every tank's a Tiger, every plane's a FW190, and every artillery piece a Nebelwerfer. I think it a much interesting, richer and challenging experience to have to play with the hand that the historical actors were dealt over some fantasy scenario. The notion that "free production" is somehow more realistic or "historical" has IMO limited milage unless 2by3 implements an industrial design so complex as to make it quite plain to the player why both Allied and Axis were producing and/or fielding equipment so "suboptimal" that these mightn't even see the light of day under the "free" (read: bogus) production system.



Shupov -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 4:08:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

I for one wouldn't want to play a game were every tank's a Tiger, every plane's a FW190, and every artillery piece a Nebelwerfer.


I'm with you. I have played in WiR games where the Soviets have 1000's of T-34's and the Axis has 1000's of FW-190's. Production of all other models was suppressed. Although the games were still fun, the outcome was skewed away from history. I now prefer to play computer controlled (historical) production.



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 8:56:08 AM)

Well, if we asume that the game is a What if because (i dont see you non producction players doing the same as germans or soviets because you know what is wrong and what is fine) after 1 month the historical producction is more a problem because hey, the situation in 1942 or in 1943 isnt the same as in the historical and sorry, but in an operational game situation is all, i like to see what do you say when in 1943 with heavy losses in armor as german player (worst than historical) you where forced to have the historical producction and you cant leave Tigers (I and II) and dont can create more PzIV and/or StugIII.

O, you talk about T-70 and other lights, well, the problem for soviets is that they dont have allways the factories to made T-34/KV-1 and they need to take a decission, have light factories off or working in some bad but at least usable??? here we can add that some players prefer left T-70 in a secondary and for example create more SU-76, Halftracks (option called copy M3) or more trucks.

With free producction see a player producing only the best equipment if false because as i say before in a war you produce the material that you can not the material you want [:-]

PD: Bf-110 was a tested night killer (with a good initial work in the day light) but He219s was better, why germans dont use the second??? tecnical problems, producction is important but have a good weapon dont neccesary means that you can have it without problems and in great numbers.



itsjustme -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 4:15:54 PM)

While I certainly respect the developers' decisions, those insisting that they want to play a historical game are totally, utterly and completely missing the point.  If you want to play a historical game, don't change the production settings.  Viola, historical game.  It really is just that simple.  Find an opponent who wants a historical game, I am sure that there are plenty and you can replay history all you like.   That particular argument against production changes doesn't hold an ounce of water.    [:-]

Based on testers and developers comments, I suspect that we are going to ultimately see that this game is a prelude expanding/reworking the game to reflect the full European conflict  in which production is incorporated.  Not unlike UV being a prelude (uber beta test?) for WITP.  I just sincerely hope that matrix will continue with their quality customer service and discount that game to those who purchase this game and essentially fund the creation of the larger game...



sabre1 -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 5:52:55 PM)

I agree with Hexagon, and itsjustme.



Joel Billings -> RE: Why not free production? (8/13/2009 9:58:02 PM)

I too would ideally like to see some control over production in WitE as a game option. However, I know that it would take more time than we can give it prior to release. It's not as easy as you might think, and has serious play/balance implications that would require much coding and long-term testing. I hope that it will be added in after release (although that is much more likely if we end up with some dedicated customers taking on this work as has happened with several of our other games). We feel the game has enough to offer without it, but I fully understand those that feel it is important enough for them to discourage them from buying the game. I fully expect a future War in Europe game to have production controls (and partially because of that it's probably many years in the future).



sabre1 -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 3:49:04 AM)

I have said it before, it's not a deal breaker, just REALLY wish it was there as an option. [8|]



kafka -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 7:34:54 AM)

quote:

I fully expect a future War in Europe game to have production controls (and partially because of that it's probably many years in the future).


thanks Joel! Though I'd like to have some sort of production control in wite, I understand your reasons for not including it and fully support your approach and look forward both to wite and hopefully your next project (war in europe with a player control production system [:D])



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 11:25:45 AM)

I understand creators, and of course asume that add free production (or at least a minimum player selection) is difficult but hey, create a game covering the most important theater of war in the 2WW isnt easy and with more options the good game became a great/superb game. If ask me if i prefer a game with less options and have it in middle 2010 (i think is the WiTE release date???) with a promise of add in a "future" new options but with creators talking about a new game or a much complete game for late 2011 (or 2012) i prefer the second.

Add the producction option after... well, when i buy a game i buy it thinking in the actual game settings, not in future settings because isnt the first time that future settings never appear [:@] (as patches to clear bugs). A future game with the producction is great but in the post we talk about WiTE and a game covering west teather (i think you refer to these because talk about Europe not Pacific) for me dont have the same interesting as east front.

Balance a games is allways a difficult question but with static producction is hardest because i think that it can be a limitation for players who want to be less historical (you call the game historical but see a 2nd Stalingrad could be difficult), is like in WiTP where Japanese players has few chance of victory and they have free producction!!!.

I like the game concept but not all the settings, i wait to the final product to see if is an interesting game or not.







Jeffrey H. -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 7:47:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

I for one wouldn't want to play a game were every tank's a Tiger, every plane's a FW190, and every artillery piece a Nebelwerfer.


I'm with you. I have played in WiR games where the Soviets have 1000's of T-34's and the Axis has 1000's of FW-190's. Production of all other models was suppressed. Although the games were still fun, the outcome was skewed away from history. I now prefer to play computer controlled (historical) production.



Fun is good.



thackaray -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 7:48:33 PM)

Dear Mr Joel Billings and Mr Gary Grigsby,

I have a proposal for you both to consider to appease those wanting a free production system.

Why not create a new game based solely on Production, where the player can produced whatever they want.  I'm sure those who want a Second World War tactical game, maybe disappointed by the lack of an option to be an arm chair General.  But you could always add the arm chair General option in later as an expansion pack.

Yours, successfully taking the p*ss !

thackaray



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 10:08:12 PM)

Hahaha good idea thackaray [&o]

Now a little more serious, WiTE is an operational game, in operational games you take decisions not only over the frontline, factories is the other battlefield, for example, if Hitler (allies secret weapon hehehe) leave the ME-236 as pure fighter air combat over Germany could be soooooooooooooo different and east front could asume more classic planes as ME-109 or FW-190, only with a plane allies work could be more difficult in the 2 fronts.

I dont want a producction system where i can select if Panther has 4 of 5 men in the crew but at least want decide if i play with big cats or leave the hard work to the worker class (PzIV+StugIII) in some periods it can save the day [;)]



Jison -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 10:51:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thackaray

Dear Mr Joel Billings and Mr Gary Grigsby,

I have a proposal for you both to consider to appease those wanting a free production system.

Why not create a new game based solely on Production, where the player can produced whatever they want.  I'm sure those who want a Second World War tactical game, maybe disappointed by the lack of an option to be an arm chair General.  But you could always add the arm chair General option in later as an expansion pack.

Yours, successfully taking the p*ss !

thackaray



[:D]



PDiFolco -> RE: Why not free production? (8/14/2009 11:04:32 PM)

Well, imho the problem with "historical" production is that it is ... historical, that is, dictated by the event flow that occured in real history, and as such can be totally off in a game where history takes a different path.
For example, the Soviets drafted all they could to defend Moscow, but won't have done that if the war went better for them by end 41. OTOH the Germans didn't have to raise many troops before they were bled in Winter'41. If they'd survived better there would have been less troops raised too...

So I'm rather for a "partially free" production, letting the player assess their needs rather than getting troops seemingly randomly, as the production will not make sense anymore in the game "alternate history". The challenge is then to still constraint the player and not letting him choose only what is seen now as the "best" units, but that were not seen as such at the time, and were in limited number because of the production system (ie you can't switch PzIII factories to PzV in a week).
There's also a twist in allocating production on one front without playing the other (west), that could have gone another way too, but at least it can be considered outside of game scope and thus "set in stone".




Richrd -> RE: Why not free production? (8/15/2009 5:55:41 AM)

You have to leave something for War in the East- Feldmarshalls Edition.



Hexagon -> RE: Why not free production? (8/15/2009 9:39:27 AM)

My vote is for War in the East - General´s (German) Edition, WiTE GA (it can be the east from version of WiTP Allied edition [:D]).



MaraTheFinn -> RE: Why not free production? (8/19/2009 2:26:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: itsjustme

While I certainly respect the developers' decisions, those insisting that they want to play a historical game are totally, utterly and completely missing the point.  If you want to play a historical game, don't change the production settings.  Viola, historical game.  It really is just that simple.  Find an opponent who wants a historical game, I am sure that there are plenty and you can replay history all you like.   That particular argument against production changes doesn't hold an ounce of water.    [:-]

Based on testers and developers comments, I suspect that we are going to ultimately see that this game is a prelude expanding/reworking the game to reflect the full European conflict  in which production is incorporated.  Not unlike UV being a prelude (uber beta test?) for WITP.  I just sincerely hope that matrix will continue with their quality customer service and discount that game to those who purchase this game and essentially fund the creation of the larger game...



I agree all those who want to play historical production can ALWAYS do it! Those who don't cannot. This is silly!

Give at least some freedon in production for those who want!

I just read the manual Gary's War in the Rusia game. It states on page 44: "Don't try to optimize your production. You can't." I did and I could. Next game War in the West did not even have production. Why someone hates production alterations? Give at least same kind of freedom in production as in War in Russia! That can be a chosen option during new game start.

By the way when Feldmarshal's edition appears (2015?) I have ended my WITP game.



kafka -> RE: Why not free production? (8/19/2009 5:21:32 PM)

quote:

By the way when Feldmarshal's edition appears (2015?) I have ended my WITP game.


LOL! I too bought WITP AE but I'm afraid I won't ever have the time to start the war LOL



TPM -> RE: Why not free production? (8/20/2009 9:47:26 PM)

This seems to be a good explanation of the intent of the game; thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Here's my take on it (as an informed alpha tester rather than speaking for the developers)-

Think of this game as putting you in charge of STAVKA or OKH, with no possibility of replacement by the two crazies in charge. You put the forces in place and run the offensive and defensive plays, down to divisional levels (and some below). The game is (and I'll invent a phrase here) "massive-operational" rather than strategic. They (and other departments) run the economics.

I get the need to control all aspects of the war, but you are going to be stunned by the amount you can do each turn if you wish with deciding where to put sub-units within armies, corps and divisions and figuring out where you need to be allocating your scant resources to deal with the land mass you will be attacking and defending.




TPM -> RE: Why not free production? (8/20/2009 10:23:00 PM)

I agree...as said in some earlier posts, the role you are to play in this game is commander of military forces, not production leader. Now, whether or not you like it, that's another issue, but I don't think the argument can be made that somehow these production issues have a direct link to the tactical situation for the commander on the front, in the sense that the commander has a direct influence on them (the production issues). Yes, the drive to the Caucasus was for the oil, but I don't think the generals on the front had much to do with this decision except for the basic fact that they probably complained that they needed more oil...which isn't something Hitler or Speer needed to be told.

In any event, it's clear what the intent of the game is, and that makes sense to me. You have to think of yourself not as one top commander, but several...you are all the army (or army group) commanders out there, making operational decisions, working with what you have, making requests for units, sometimes getting them, sometimes not. In other words, you are not Hitler in this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfarber

Hex, I am not sure what you are driving at?

The game will not have production choices, political choices, industrial prioritization--subs, flak, air, tanks, etc.... those items will follow the historical options.... there are a huge variety of items that could be discussed or wished for in the game... but they will not be in this game. Choices have to be made in any endeavor and they already have been made for WitE.

I view production choices as something that is administrative and truly not that interesting... I don't believe any front commander had much to control over what was produced. Guderian did later in the war but he no longer was in command of any troops.




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