RE: Why not free production? (Full Version)

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sol_invictus -> RE: Why not free production? (7/20/2009 8:42:40 PM)

Ideally, I would agree that throwing everything into the game would be great and would make everyone happy while supplying more replayability, all things being even. But it sounds like the actual operational aspects of the game are going to be very deep and I guess that Mainstein and Zhukov will have to forego sending in their personal production requests to Speer and Ivaninski(a completely made up name for the historical Russian production guy that I don't know the name of and that I came up with off the top of my head). I imagine it all comes down to time and money to put it bluntly.



PyleDriver -> RE: Why not free production? (7/20/2009 8:45:28 PM)

its...This game has so much already, it's like poker, you have to play the hand your delt with...



Shupov -> RE: Why not free production? (7/21/2009 6:31:52 PM)

I understand that WitE players will not be able to change what factories produce.  Will they be able to decide when to evacuate factories as in WiR?  This was a fun feature that caused the Soviet player to make tough decisions.



Helpless -> RE: Why not free production? (7/21/2009 7:03:55 PM)

quote:

Will they be able to decide when to evacuate factories as in WiR?


Yes



wodin -> RE: Why not free production? (7/21/2009 11:19:05 PM)

Production in a wargame is a no no for me. Infact I'd give the game a wide berth if production is in it. Hearts of Iron was pure overload for me. I want to deal with the fighting end of the stick not factory output. I prefer the fieldmarschal role to some head of a government department.




PyleDriver -> RE: Why not free production? (7/21/2009 11:48:22 PM)

As the Soviet player how you balance new troops coming to the front, and removing factories to the east is a real challenge. We added a hotkey to show locations of factories to speed game play...



thackaray -> RE: Why not free production? (7/22/2009 12:29:43 AM)

On the question on Soviets evacuating factories.

1) How many factories can you evacuate in:
a) a turn?
b) in total?

2) What is the time period in which you can evacuate? Until end of '41? or can you keep evacuating factories until the end of the war?

3) How long before the evacuated factories come back online?



PyleDriver -> RE: Why not free production? (7/22/2009 4:44:37 AM)

1) It depends on rail points for the turn, thus the balance between factories and troop transport.
2) I believe as the Soviet you can continue as long as needed.
3) This one were still working out the kinks on just how much time. Pavel (Helpless) has some great new info that may have a bering on that...



timtom -> RE: Why not free production? (7/23/2009 10:53:03 PM)

Good call, 2by3. Keep it real.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 2:12:45 PM)

First of all, I'd like to say I'd be quite happy to get my hands on this game regardless. However, as a huge fan of WiR from way back I'd also like to see player-controlled production of tanks and aircraft, at least as a toggle option. I loved mucking around with the aircraft and tank choices. So, what's wrong with making it a player choice? Too much coding? Can it be in patch? Can it be modded?

Cheers, CC



Stryder -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 3:07:43 PM)

there is a finite amount of developer time that can be invested in the game (to stay in business and not go bankrupt)......... I'd rather see that time invested in other areas/features than production control; AI development, scenarios, etc.. (just my humble opinion) [:)]



GKar -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 5:42:14 PM)

I'm very sceptic that not including production is a good idea. Before I knew it, WitE was a clear buy for me, but now I'm not sure at all. I understand that it demands development resources and is a potential source of exploits, but I don't want to be forced to mess around with weapons and tanks I'd never had ordered myself. This might be realistic for a commanding general in the East, but when in doubt, a game should be steered towards fun and not realism.



PyleDriver -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 8:04:22 PM)

This game is both fun and real, Oh and playable...I've been a wargamer for 40 years, never seen anything like this. Gary at his best...



Joel Billings -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 10:14:27 PM)

This is a clear case of not enough time to do everything. Making production player controlled (or an option) would involve a very large investment in coding time. For those of you not aware of this, this game has been in development off and on since 2000 (when we did the orginal map and unit data). If we had another programmer we'd consider doing this, but it's not likely to happen. We feel player controlled Axis production is not essential for this game, like it would be for a War in Europe game. For this game we are focusing on the operational elements. We realize that a certain percentage of the players would like player controlled production, but we think there's plenty in this game to even keep those players happy.



jredmon -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 10:28:06 PM)

I'm also a supporter of free production since I want to optimize German manufacturing. But I understand the constraints.

On that note, however, does this mean that there won't be any strategic bombing on cities or resource centers such as Ploesti and Baku? I hope that this option is in the game. If it is, then I also hope that you can see the damage done after the other side finishes their turn. In WIR, it wasn't clear if your cities were hit by bombers or not by your opponent.



Joel Billings -> RE: Why not free production? (7/26/2009 11:23:48 PM)

You can bomb strategic targets.



wodin -> RE: Why not free production? (7/27/2009 12:14:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jredmon

I'm also a supporter of free production since I want to optimize German manufacturing.


You already have Her Speer doing this and he is quite good so Ive heard.



itsjustme -> RE: Why not free production? (7/27/2009 2:24:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: jredmon

I'm also a supporter of free production since I want to optimize German manufacturing.


You already have Her Speer doing this and he is quite good so Ive heard.


Except of course, this is false. Speer did what he could with what he was given. But the German economy wasn't put on a full war footing until mid-1943, far far too late.



Romdanzer -> RE: Why not free production? (7/27/2009 9:20:05 PM)

While I understand that the development man-power is a good reason to restrict the size/options of the programme/game I feel that this is a decision with a caveat.

Although we are talking an operational-level game on the level of OKH that we have here, the strategic operational decisions can also be driven by the aim to influence the country's war production - for example the whole reason in 1942 by Hitler/OKH to attack in caucausus area was to gain access to the oil fields. Another one is conquest of industrial area's for one's own inductrial production. In this Eastern front area of operations maybe more like the eastern european countries like Lavtia, Estonia, Bessarabia for integrating into Romania, etc...but still - conquest of critical areas can increase one's production. Therefore one needs feedback for success with such operations in one's unit production. How does this feedback-loop work if it is not free? At lease some simply rudementary production system is required in my oppinion.

In the past simple production systems in Board games like "Eastern Front" (where they had to be simple as there was no computer for administration purposes) gave you such a feedback and wouldn't be too difficult to programme really.

Simple free-production system maybe for a later expansion set??? What about that idea?

Romdanzer



Joel Billings -> RE: Why not free production? (7/27/2009 9:42:21 PM)

The player does benefit from capturing enemy heavy industry, oil and resources (and the losing player surely suffers the loss of these). Whether the benefit is enough, or we need to provide some sort of victory point adjustment to account for the value to the high command for having access to these items is yet unknown.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 2:15:21 PM)

Thanks, Joel, for the explanation. I will definitely buy this game when it comes out.

Cheers, CC



kafka -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 3:15:10 PM)

quote:

Simple free-production system maybe for a later expansion set??? What about that idea?


I strongly support the idea



wosung -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 3:32:48 PM)

It's one of the biggest threads already.
So people seemingly do care about production.
Besides: With a little optional production more grand strategy gamer might be interested - not only the operational crowd.
Maybe wargamers not only like to push counters but also want to produce things.

Regards



wworld7 -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 3:42:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

It's one of the biggest threads already.
So people seemingly do care about production.
Besides: With a little optional production more grand strategy gamer might be interested - not only the operational crowd.
Maybe wargamers not only like to push counters but also want to produce things.

Regards


Some people care about both.

But, for this game I am fine with not having to deal with production.

There looks to be a much fun ahead with this game. WITP-Russia I would not purchase.



Capt Cliff -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 7:05:38 PM)

Maybe the extent of production influence should be that during the month staff meetings with Uncle Joe or Uncle Adolph we can request XYZ from the armaments minister. You get one or two requests and no more until they are fufilled and drop off the radar screen. Say like ... early Panthers or mechanically sound Panthers .. early Tiger I's or increase procution of Tiger I's (nothing fantastic like 70 a month to 80 a month or 100) ... more Oil production ... air superiority fighter ... more brauts for the troops. Now these requests are checked monthly on some random chart till they are implimented using your admin ratig or success or what ever .. the more successful you are the least likely your chance of sucess, why? Your winning you don't need Me-262's or the PXVII Maus!



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 8:02:21 PM)

I seems a little odd that player controllled production will not be something that is at least moddable. It's easy for an outsider to over simplify but how can production be abstracted to the point that it's buried throughout the source code ? Wouldn't it be a series of tables or something along those lines that can be modded ?



JMass -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 8:36:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
But, for this game I am fine with not having to deal with production.


I too, I prefer the operational over the strategical side so I don't care about production.



jmlima -> RE: Why not free production? (7/28/2009 9:45:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
But, for this game I am fine with not having to deal with production.


I too, I prefer the operational over the strategical side so I don't care about production.


Ditto.



wodin -> RE: Why not free production? (7/31/2009 12:36:11 AM)

deleted



knilli -> RE: Why not free production? (8/1/2009 12:13:50 PM)

late as usually....
i played the original WIR/Second Front and still play it. i liked the feature to get rid of outdated tanks like the Pz II and not to produce certain other models (example Pz IV D). Yes, I would like to see this feature included - earlier or later. As a patch or a Mod/Extension). Though, I understand that - at the moment - it is not included. I also understand that not everyone likes these features. I do!
And because I wrote of (christmas) wishes...[:D]... I would like to be able to conquer or at least impact the deliveries via Murmansk, and impact on the supplys which come via the supply line from Persia (forgot what it is called, but in real the Germans had at least one Recon Squad there (Astrakhan or how ever u spell that) and destroyed at least one train there [;)] - if not in this game, then at least in the next one).




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