Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (Full Version)

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Jaypea -> Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 6:40:23 PM)

First, let me say that after playing PACWAR --> UV --> WITP --> AE this is absolutely the best was game I have ever played. Great job on the AI, It is 10X better than WITP.

Now, while I like all aspects of the game, the AI air reinforcements have to be fixed. I am just start in Jan 1943 as Allies, I have lost 5000 a/c vs 17k a/c for the Jap AI. So thats OK but as I count, the AI has a whopping 34,000 a/c in reserve [X(]. As said in the other thread, this needs to be fixed as far as I am concerned it makles the came almost unplayable with the meager Allied Air reinforcements. I play a fairly conservative game and it falling along the historical lines, so even playing mostly defense, I still can not fill out half of my army air units. My carriers are doing OK at this point but only because I have used them defensively. So before I go and edit and create my own playable game, will this be fixed in the next patch?

Thanks again for the great work, hats off to you guys[&o]

regards
Jaypea



JohnDillworth -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:00:49 PM)

might as well simplify things and just make Jap replacements unlimited. Limit it only by date, the number of pilots and the number air-groups. It kind of works out that way anyhow.



Mike Solli -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:24:45 PM)

Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.

*If this message posts 3 times, I'm just trying to pad my post count. [:'(]



pmelheck1 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:41:47 PM)

Player squadrons can be taken down to no aircraft with no replacements and lots of pilots.  The Japanese AI can keep every squadron filled regardless of losses even if it uses untrained pilots because those pilots will be trained up from attacks on airfields with empty allied air groups.  Pilots training doesn't matter when I can put up four or five fighters against 60-80 Japanese Aircraft.  If I and the Japanese send a raid of betties and B-17's and we both lose 30 planes it takes me 2 months to recover, it takes Japan ONE DAY.  In the two months I have to wait to rebuild my units those bettie groups are not sitting still but bombing everything they can and gaining experience.  "quantity is a quality all it's own"





Gilbert -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:43:44 PM)

Mike is absolutely right. For Japan, it doesn't matter how many planes the aircraft industry could produce because IJA and IJN will by no means be able to get the associated well trained pilots to fly them. Japanese pilots skills, as IRL, will tend to be less and less high and even if they can produce many good fighters like "Frank" or "George", the pilots in these fighters won't be as qualified as the 1941-1942 ones flying on Zero or Oscar.
I agree on the fact that Japanese aircraft production are ahistorical but as far as they can't put some good pilots flying them, it won't change the war outcome.

Gilbert



Mike Scholl -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:47:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.


But it does mean that they will never have to use any but the best A/C they produce. Which is total nonsense, and completely ahistorical and unfair.



pmelheck1 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 7:58:16 PM)

If the Japanese AI can supress your aircraft to a point he is losing less planes than his pilot replacement rate he can sustain trained pilots all war.  IRL the Japanese didn't have unlimited aircraft to overwhelm and annihilate the allies thus in the long run lowering his own losses in the process.   Pilot training is moot when all your pilots are sitting in the pool and his are sitting in aircraft.



Gilbert -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 8:22:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

If the Japanese AI can supress your aircraft to a point he is losing less planes than his pilot replacement rate he can sustain trained pilots all war.  IRL the Japanese didn't have unlimited aircraft to overwhelm and annihilate the allies thus in the long run lowering his own losses in the process.   Pilot training is moot when all your pilots are sitting in the pool and his are sitting in aircraft.


As you say "If..." but I doubt this will happen by reading other threads where Japanese players are already complaining about their pilot skills in mid-42. I think this ahistorical aircraft production has been made by the devs to give Allied players a better challenge and to compensate ahistorical Japanese aircraft losses. I think we have to wait and see how the situation evolves in 1943 for the Allies. If Japan aircrafts continue to rule the skies and Allies are desesperatly short of planes, (but I highly doubt it), then, "Houston, we have a problem..." and the current situation should be corrected.

Gilbert



ART11 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:04:53 PM)

Hmm, it is not a question about Jap AI production - It's a matter of "extra" reinforcements given them by programmers and it's intentional. In my game (30 Dec 41) AI expand Aircraft production to 1567 - no problem since AI follow the common industry rules, but also  it received about 500 Dinah for free, 700 Sonia's and more other types (about 5000 aircraft only in one month!!!!, record was 652 Sonia's in one turn). This means any war of attrition with AI is no longer possible. I do not know if this "extras" can be removed in editor. Maybe the better way is to create separate scenario with such a replaceements turned off? This aircraft numbers were on Easy diff level but what will happend on very hard?
It's only one thing which I do not like in this game. Rest are perfect guys, great job!!!
Regards
ART



BigJ62 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:24:08 PM)

In Official Patch 1 Japanese factory a/c engine and frames expansion will be based on difficulty level, normal level will be very much like human.



ART11 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:28:44 PM)

Great! Will also this "extra one offs" be turned off?
Regards
ART



BigJ62 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:31:07 PM)

I don't know anything about free a/c as it is not in my code.



pmelheck1 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:50:07 PM)

Multi player is dragged in to explan the AI even though one has nothing to do with the other.  The issue with Japanese aircraft production and economic collapse were a problem with WITP from launch day and were never addressed nor fixed.  Here we are with AE with the same problem.  I will rule the skies late in the war but not from a production stand point but because the Japanese economy will have collapsed early in the game and the AI CAN NOT fix it.  I watched this for five years with WITP now I'm watching the same thing with AE.  When the Japanese players talk about economic collapse and recovery they talk of too much production.  The Japanese AI is expanding worse than any human player would and yet nobody thinks this is a problem.  If the production of aircraft can be brought to historical levels it will eliminate Japan's unlimited replacements and allow a war of attrition to be viable for the allies something it is not now.  Second lower production also means a much healthier Japanese economy  with collapse from allied war effort and not uber production.  In addition if the allies can collapse the Japanese economy there is a chance if their is sufficient raw matrieals to recover IF production isn't more then all the resources of the earth combined.  In most of my games of WITP the Japanese economy collapsed in late '42 and never recovered.  To me both of these issues are related.  I want historic levels of production on both sides not a different version of "Command and Conquer pacific".  I also don't want the Japanese economy to collapse due to over production.  If I were playing a human opponent this is all moot but I don't play human opponents and have no interest in it.  We all come to AE expecting or wanting different things.  I want historical accuracy even if more than painful for me.  At the moment this is half right with AI production being the problem.  Others want a level playing field they want a game and couldn't care less about history.  I'm all for that too, in a different scenario.  I'm not looking to limit what players do with the Japanese economy this is why they play Japan and I think it's great.  How about the allied AI multiply replacement rates by a factor of 10 as the Japanese AI does.  In my game the production of betties will excede real life levels by the end of '42 for the Mavis it will excede production in Mar-Apr '42.  To some people the fact the computer generates 20000 betties as opposed to the 2000 or 2000 mavis vs 200 IRL is not an issue.  I was looking for a historical game not Command and Conquer with an aircraft rush.



ART11 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 9:52:02 PM)

Could somebody answer where it is and how it works? I asked about that in 2 threads but only receive info that is intentional and smaller on easy levels. That's why I started on easy but after one month it looks like Japs have 5000 extra a/c.
Regards
ART



Andy Mac -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 10:09:00 PM)

I am not sure what you want me to say the AI gets help with aircraft production it needs it it will lose a lot more than any player would and some of these helps are necessary.

Help is higher at higher difficulty levels and is more obvious in obsolete types the AI is not using.

Why on earth anyone would be peeking to track AI aircraft production is beyond me but hey its your choice.




Mynok -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 10:15:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

Multi player is dragged in to explan the AI even though one has nothing to do with the other.



Wrong. It's the same engine. Same limitations. The devs did a masterful job trying get a decent AI but the basic reality of life in computer wargames is that an AI is best used to learn the game so one can play an actual human.

No matter what your schedule limitations or whatever, you CAN find someone who will play you.



pmelheck1 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 10:16:16 PM)

I'm glad to here about production with regard to difficulty.  Please don't get me wrong.  I think the game if fantastic but don't like the ahistorical production by the AI.  The team did a great job and I'm still very satisfied with AE.  I am just here voicing what I hope will improve the game for folks like me who are looking for history.  I am not intending to negative to anyone and apologize if anyone took thing this way.  The Team put a lot of effort in AE and it shows outstandingly.  I played WITP from launch but never really tried to address any of the production issues.  Now however you have nailed what I consider the best Pacific war program available.  So I voice in the hopes of helping to improve an already great game.  My area of history study was ww2 air history.  I am retired Air Force so for me this is indeed a passionate area.  I'm not as well versed as others in the ground and navel areas and will leave those to others who are better qualified.  If unlimited aircraft production was a programing choice I can live with that but I haven't seen anything saying so.  Hence my interest in improving the game to allow tactics that worked in real life to work in the game (aircraft production) and also long term playability (no AI economic collapse).  I am primarally addressing aircraft because they are both easily tracked and verified.  I think ground has the same issue but it's more difficult to verify.  With air power playing such a large role in the game as it did in real life numbers DO matter.  Endgame would be a prime example.  instead of 2000 aircraft for Kamikaze use there could be 100000 or 200000 aircraft.





pmelheck1 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 10:32:52 PM)

I tend to peek at production levels when I've been fighting for weeks and my air units are completely destroyed and the AI continues to send full strength raids everyday.  When I look at production levels I see that not only are all of their squadrons full strength but they still have 800-1000 aircraft in the pool.  You come to a very quick conclusion that only the AI can win a war of attrition.  sweeps, airfield strikes, escort, cap none of this matters because for every Japanese plane you down they produce 10.  Even if I have a 10 to 1 kill ratio it doesn't matter if I'm being out produced 20 to 1.  A war of attrition works in Japans favor as they can afford unlimited losses but the human player can't.  Bonus aircraft make sense to me tied to difficulty level but bonus and unlimited production?



Andy Mac -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 10:46:52 PM)

AI production is not unlimited if you shut down the factories by starvation or lack of HI the Ai runs out of aircraft

You need to remember the AI does not use PDU - so the AI having 2,000 A6M2 is irrelevant because the AI will upgrade to A6M5 and the AI will NEVER downgrade

Sonias it doesnt matter how many the AI has once sallies and helens are around only a very few sqns use them.




ART11 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 11:00:51 PM)

Andy
I asked where with a little hope that it's able to change in editor. Is it any possibility to have such functionality (toogle extra off/on) in future?
I'd rather like to  only see 1000 AI flying planes per turn on all the map, not 10000 knowing that 90% of them are extra generated. Of course for PBEM players it doesn't matter, for most of playing with AI the same, but I think there is a small group who do not like C&C as mullk said.
Looking that You are changing the AI production approach a little bit maybe it's worth to allow players decide about "extras", of course if it does not need huge effort, completely rewrite code etc.  
Why I looked at AI production? Because I tried the war of attrition strategy with AI above  the Philippines - trying to reionforce my P40's at all costs. AI losses were significant but without any impact on number of aircraft attacking next turn. So I decided to open save file on Jap side and look what's going on.
To be clearly understood this game is the best game I've ever played. [&o][&o][&o]
Regards
ART

  



pad152 -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 11:40:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am not sure what you want me to say the AI gets help with aircraft production it needs it it will lose a lot more than any player would and some of these helps are necessary.

Help is higher at higher difficulty levels and is more obvious in obsolete types the AI is not using.

Why on earth anyone would be peeking to track AI aircraft production is beyond me but hey its your choice.



quote:

n Official Patch 1 Japanese factory a/c engine and frames expansion will be based on difficulty level, normal level will be very much like human.


Sorry but, the AI cheats so much you don't need to peak!

Why is the AI losing so many aircraft (ops loses, flying air groups until pilots crash, flying from level 1 airfields)?

I would like to see the AI obey the rules for airfield size, no more B17's from level 1 or level 2 airfields, so it looks like the AI is playing the same game the player!



Mike Solli -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/3/2009 11:46:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
the basic reality of life in computer wargames is that an AI is best used to learn the game so one can play an actual human.



....or Martian....



Tomcat -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 12:00:07 AM)

If I understand the various discussions correctly it is possible to attrit the Japanese pilot skills, shipping, and naval forces. If this is done then Japanese production of aircraft will also suffer due to lack of supplies. Is this correct?



Iridium -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 12:05:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

If I understand the various discussions correctly it is possible to attrit the Japanese pilot skills, shipping, and naval forces. If this is done then Japanese production of aircraft will also suffer due to lack of supplies. Is this correct?


Possibly, more likely there will be only green pilots left sooner than you affect the economy. The idea is that Japan could keep having fighters but none of them would be as effective as your fighters in combat. I have not been able to play out a grand campaign far enough to see how bad the attrition effects Japanese operations.



Rexor -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 3:12:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac


Why on earth anyone would be peeking to track AI aircraft production is beyond me but hey its your choice.




Why? Because we want to understand the game better? I don't understand your confusion.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 7:51:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.


But it does mean that they will never have to use any but the best A/C they produce. Which is total nonsense, and completely ahistorical and unfair.


What is total nonsense and unfair is the air of hysteria this topic has created. I have yet to see a game vs the AI in which allied air-air losses exceed those of the Japanese even in the first month of war. I have yet to see any AFBs complaining about uber surface combat results. And I have yet to see the results of any PBEM that substantiates the issue of uber Japanese production ability.

A few comments related to Jaypea's game...

1. I'd like to see a screen shot of current Japanese production from Jaypea's game. If it is correct, it would be interesting to know what types of aircraft the AI is producing and the types of engines being built.

2. I'd like to know what the settings are. specifically if he is playing with the "very hard " setting. If that is correct, then you get what you asked for... a very challenging game in which many restraints related to the Japanese are removed for the AI. Don't like it that way? Choose a different setting.

3. If PDU is off, you can produce all of the best aircraft you want. If the unit doesn't upgrade to it, you can't use it.

4. It's really all about the pilots. Crappy pilots in good pilots are easy kills. Training fighter pilots on backwater bases (as in stock) won't help with fighter skills.

Chez




DrewMatrix -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 8:30:11 AM)

quote:

It's really all about the pilots.


I'm worried the enormous pool of IJ A/C is making the pilot problem worse.

I'm early enough (April 42) that the IJ are still using Bettys/Kates/Sallys/A6M2 ie the huge pools aren't obsolescent. What I think is happening is the IJ fly lose some A/C but then, rather than curtail their efforts and fly with only the remaining fewer planes, still with good pilots they fill out the air unit with A/C from the plentiful pools and fill those A/C by very freely drawing on replacement pilots.

All the IJ air units seem to be full strength or waiting for the replacement timer to get to full strength.

So they appear to be burning through pilots, not restrained by a lack of A/C. The pilot quality has plummeted by 4/42. There are still good IJ air units, but they are in the PI for example, and haven't been engaged yet. The IJ air units in the Solomons/Gilberts/Burma regions have very poor pilot quality.

This is Scen 6/Hard btw. The problem I am having isn't "the AI have too many A/C" (they have lots and lots). It's "the pilots left to fly those A/C can't hit a thing."




Mike Scholl -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 9:39:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
4. It's really all about the pilots. Crappy pilots in good planes are easy kills. Training fighter pilots on backwater bases (as in stock) won't help with fighter skills.

Chez



If this is true, then why the fuss to maintain artificially high numbers of A/C produced? Why not bring it back to something at least remenicent of historical reality?



Chickenboy -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 2:12:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert
I agree on the fact that Japanese aircraft production are ahistorical but as far as they can't put some good pilots flying them, it won't change the war outcome.
Gilbert

Oh? Giving the non-AI player thousands of 'gimme' points from ahistoric a/c kills from untrained enemy pilots won't affect the war outcome? Having squadrons of naval fighter pilots suffering from Walleye vision (thanks, 'Hot Shots') won't affect the value of CAP over strategic assets like carriers, SCTFs or amphibious assault forces? When one player can brush aside CAP unrealistically early in the war, I beg to differ-it will change the war outcome.



Jaypea -> RE: Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements? (9/4/2009 2:25:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.


But it does mean that they will never have to use any but the best A/C they produce. Which is total nonsense, and completely ahistorical and unfair.


What is total nonsense and unfair is the air of hysteria this topic has created. I have yet to see a game vs the AI in which allied air-air losses exceed those of the Japanese even in the first month of war. I have yet to see any AFBs complaining about uber surface combat results. And I have yet to see the results of any PBEM that substantiates the issue of uber Japanese production ability.

A few comments related to Jaypea's game...

1. I'd like to see a screen shot of current Japanese production from Jaypea's game. If it is correct, it would be interesting to know what types of aircraft the AI is producing and the types of engines being built.

2. I'd like to know what the settings are. specifically if he is playing with the "very hard " setting. If that is correct, then you get what you asked for... a very challenging game in which many restraints related to the Japanese are removed for the AI. Don't like it that way? Choose a different setting.

3. If PDU is off, you can produce all of the best aircraft you want. If the unit doesn't upgrade to it, you can't use it.

4. It's really all about the pilots. Crappy pilots in good pilots are easy kills. Training fighter pilots on backwater bases (as in stock) won't help with fighter skills.

Chez





Hi,

here are your answers . . .

1) Unfortunately I am on vacation now with my laptop which has a fresh copy of AE installed and as I intended to start a brand new game with my own mods to production, I have no screen shots to share. But as I recall, all of the front line planes (army/navy fighters, LBs, TBs, Dbs) had between 1000 and 2500 a/c as reinforcements (plus all front lines groups I checked had full complements of planes). As 14 months had passed in my game and I had destroyed 17k of these aircraft, I expected that I would atleast be destroying them as fast as they could be made. Engines I did not check.

2) I am playing "Hard" scenario 2 modified by myself for a fully mobilized PI army (my own Whatif scenario). BTW the AI destroys my fully mobilized PI army right on the historical timing as supply runs out quickly - very cool actually. I like all aspects of scenario 2 except for the fact that it seems by 1943, there is no possibility of ever gaining the upper hand on AI a/c production. As I mentioned by mid-late 1942, I actually was able to start holding my own against the AI but by early 1943 it starts to tip back to the AI very quickly, there just isn't enough aircraft (ever) to keep up (it seems that once P40K productions kicks in then your OK but as P38 production winds down, there isn't anything to replace it until mid-late 43). And suppressing Jap afs only works with around the clock bombing continously (never ending) and then you attrit your meager bomber squadrons to the point you need to rest them because they are completely damaged. Then as you pause for 1 or 2 days you are pummeled by 100s fighters and 100s bombers that instantly appear on 98% destroyed airfield.

3) I like PDU on

4) I am not sure if thats true as the overwhelming numbers, even when they are losing 5 -1 against my planes, since they are out producing me 20-1 they attrit me to the point my pilots are crappy. Then its crappy pilots vs crappy pilots but they can produce 20X the aircraft. I think thats where I am in Jan 1943 as my own good pilots are being lost fast then I can replace them and my army plane replacements have been lowered due to change to P38 production.

I plan to make a copy of scenario 2 and up the replacements of the allied aircraft and play at the "historical" level. Lets see if that makes a difference.

Thanks
Jaypea




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