What If

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Hades -> What If (6/26/2002 4:40:04 AM)
In the Spirt of these little mini polls popping up i ask you what do you think is the most interesting what if of World War 2... I would have to say.. What if Hitler hadn't of been a bumbling fool and ordered the SS Panzer Divisions in Normandy to be under his personal command? Not much of a what if since we know what would of happened.

BORO -> (6/26/2002 5:47:39 AM)
Interesting..........how bout What If the Japanese had launched the third wave and attacked and destroyed the Oil/Fuel depot at Pearl Harbor. I think the end result would of been much the same, but giving them another 3-6 months of time to ravage the pacific would of made things a bit harder. Or better yet, what if our Aircraft Carriers had been in port?

Orzel Bialy -> Hmmm...well actually (6/26/2002 5:57:14 AM)
that is a real "what if" question Hades. Because, although the panzer divisions were held in Hitler's pocket, I don't believe that they would have had an easy time at "pushing the allies back into the sea." The Allies had a tremendous amount of naval and air support that could have really put a dent in any counter attack. Now, I'm not saying they couldn't have done it....the American beaches in particular were very shaky those first 12 hours or so and an immediate counterattack may well have succeeded in some areas. However, it can not be said that any German CounterAttack would have certainly changed the course of the invasion. Losses would have been higher perhaps...and gains measured by yards rather than miles...but it's hard to believe that in the face of total air superiority and a heavy naval barrage that even the panzers could have changed the day completely.

Hades -> (6/26/2002 7:14:59 AM)
Good point Orzel. Where is your what if?

Gary Tatro -> What if (6/26/2002 7:21:21 AM)
The Nazis had developed the Bomb before the Americans did?:eek:

Goblin -> (6/26/2002 7:32:40 AM)
What if Hitler had let his Generals run the war from the beginning, without interruption from him. No Barbarossa. Uh-oh. Goblin- A Goblin is glad he didn't;)

Orzel Bialy -> My What If.... (6/26/2002 7:48:51 AM)
would be what would have happened had any one of the various military plots to remove (either jailing or death ) Hitler had actually succeeded? Would the Allies have made a seperate peace with a Germany not under his (or SS) control at some point? Hmmmmmmm?

tracer -> (6/26/2002 7:51:44 AM)
'But for a nail, the battle was lost...' There's so many. How about if the Brits hadn't put up their spirited defense of the Balkans. Many German units which were slated to be in Barbarossa were instead sent there, delaying its jump-off date by over 2 months. Imagine 2 less months of Soviet preparation; and also of T-34 production which had pretty much just begun at that point. Most importantly Hoth, Hoeppner and Guderian would have completed the Bryansk encirclements and been 35 miles from Moscow 2-3 months [I]before[/I] the first snow.

Jack -> (6/26/2002 7:56:46 AM)
What if Churchill decided to send Brittish Troops to help the Fins. There was talk of it.

Kevin E. Duguay -> What if? (6/26/2002 8:49:17 AM)
Whay if Hitler never invaded Poland? Germany would have become the greatest military echonomic power in Europe. He could have controled Europe with out firing a shot. And if Russia reared its ugly head It may have become the Great Western Crusade to save Europe from communisim.

stevemk1a -> (6/26/2002 11:32:40 AM)
What if the Germans realized that Enigma was compromised, and also, what if the Japanese realized that their Purple code was being broken? I realize that these codes weren't being universally read by the Allies, but I'm sure the war against the U-boats would be a bit different, and the U.S. would have less warning of where the Japanese would strike at the Battle of Midway. I'm sure some big Strategic decisions would have been made differently without the valuble Allied codebreaking info.

antarctic -> (6/26/2002 12:48:38 PM)
Guys... The biggest "What if".. What if man could live in harmony with each other... and there would be no conflicts.... Antarctic

Knife -> What if... (6/26/2002 1:35:14 PM)
There had been no WW2? Hitler had not been bombed? Pearl Harbour had not been attacked? Some to think about...

gnoccop -> (6/26/2002 3:14:14 PM)
What if Mussolini did't declare war against France and UK? :) What if Hitler sent more armored troop in North Africa? What if Italy captured Malta? What if Franco join Axis and take Gibilter?

ananias -> (6/26/2002 6:26:18 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jack [B]What if Churchill decided to send Brittish Troops to help the Fins. There was talk of it. [/B][/QUOTE] **** it, that was my "what if"!;) Well, I�ll think up another one......Let�s see..... What if Germany had treated Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians and other such people better after "freeing" them in 1941? Those people considered the Germans as their liberators at first. The Germans might have had a few million more allies to fight the Soviets. Just my 1 cent.

El_Peco -> (6/27/2002 2:14:21 AM)
What if Stalingrad felt in German hands?

Egg_Shen -> (6/27/2002 4:41:37 AM)
I think it would be good if Hitler made the bomb first, then we wouldn't have the russians and americans running around with nukes like a 5 year olds with sharp scissors. The German people would have all of Europe, Russia, Canada and Africa, Japanese get all of Asia and Australia. Italy bailed out too soon the get nothing. And if the Americans were good boys and girls they would be allowed a happy alliance with the axis powers. We would have no military conflicts and terrorist attacks, world hunger and disease would be cured, people would be free in all parts of the world...etc This is what the Axis powers were fighting for, no? :confused: But we turned out ok otherwise :cool:

tracer -> (6/27/2002 5:21:03 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Egg_Shen [B] people would be free in all parts of the world...etc [/B][/QUOTE] Not! :eek: :D

Orzel Bialy -> That is Without a Doubt.... (6/27/2002 7:01:45 AM)
the silliest thing I've ever read on this forum. I hope you were joking...if not you need some serious history lessons my friend. Now perhaps you will say that I am bias because I am an American...but Hitler with the bomb? The world better off with the Nazis and Imperialist Japanese governing seperate spheres? :eek: Have you heard of the word "Concentration Camp" Egg_Shen? Or how about the Rape of Nanking? The Axis Powers were not exactly Noble Peace Prize candidates.

Easy8 -> re:I think it would be good if Hitler made the bomb first, (6/27/2002 7:12:00 AM)
Errr????:( :rolleyes: :confused: :( Just a suggestion, but before this gets rolling, I think we should keep the flame/troll wars in the Art of Wargaming Forum. I would be happy to discuss the "merits" of that statement over there. One reason I retreated from there.

KG Erwin -> Alternate history and it's traps (6/27/2002 7:58:07 AM)
It's easy to get caught up in "what-if's". That's the raison d'etre for wargaming. In all wars that's an intriguing concept, but none intrigues gamers more than the might-have-beens of WWII. The MOST intriguing possiblity for me is the possibility of Britain making peace with Germany after the fall of France. In that light, the European War would've been over, except for Hitler's desire to turn east. I still believe this was the true turning point of the war in Europe--Britain's refusal to concede. Hitler, according to David Irving (heh, heh) , reasoned that Britain herself had a legitimate and compelling reason to ally herself with Germany in the upcoming war with Bolshevism. Given the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, was he necessarily WRONG in this belief? I would add that Hitler foresaw that Churchill would lead Britain to ruin and the loss of its empire. THIS is where the British have a nut against Hitler, BUT he's wrongfully accused. Hitler WANTED an alliance with Britain, NOT a miltary conquest. It was only AFTER Churchill's stubborn refusal for an accomodation that invasion plans were contemplated, though half-heartedly.

Orzel Bialy -> Interesting Thought KG... (6/27/2002 8:13:30 AM)
However, for any theory of a peace settlement to have taken place would have required one more "what if".... or really more of an "only if". And that would be only if Winston Churchill had not been selected to be the PM position. Once Winston was in office....there was no way a peace agreement was going to be hammered out, short of German invasion enforcing one. Regardless of his opinion of Communism, both during and after the war, Churchill loathed Hitler more so than Stalin...so any "great alliance to save Europe" was not in the cards once the campaign in the West had errupted.

KG Erwin -> My Britain/Germany alliance a step further (6/27/2002 8:30:36 AM)
IF Britain/Germany had allied themselves, this could have led to many alternatives, including NO creation of Israel in the Middle East, and NO Holocaust. The idea was to export Europe's Jews, NOT exterminate them. In that light, an exodus to any number of points, including America, would have resulted. Stalin would still be enemy nr.1 , BUT his strategic options facing Germany's army and Britain's navy would be extremely limited. Relations with America? Diplomatic and trading. The US-Japanese situation? What do you think?

Orzel Bialy -> UK/Germany Alliance Theory... (6/27/2002 8:43:05 AM)
Again, interesting in theory. However, it goes far beyond the "what if " this had happened in WW2?" boundaries. For any alliance like this to have formed it would have had to have happened before 1936-37' at the latest. By 1938-39 there was no room for this theory to take place as France and England had already made up their minds to contain Hitler (via the protection offers to Poland/Greece)...once he had showed them that he could not be taken at his word. (ie Munich and Czechoslovkia) So this what if would have needed a lot more assistance than those what if's that concern individual battles and campaigns. Not that it isn't a very interesting concept mind you...don't get me wrong. ;)

pops -> (6/27/2002 10:02:25 AM)
....yea ....I don't think there's a "what if...?" there.......Churchill (God love him....) would never have allowed it.....

Egg_Shen -> Re: That is Without a Doubt.... (6/27/2002 1:48:24 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orzel Bialy [B]the silliest thing I've ever read on this forum. I hope you were joking...if not you need some serious history lessons my friend. Now perhaps you will say that I am bias because I am an American...but Hitler with the bomb? The world better off with the Nazis and Imperialist Japanese governing seperate spheres? :eek: Have you heard of the word "Concentration Camp" Egg_Shen? Or how about the Rape of Nanking? The Axis Powers were not exactly Noble Peace Prize candidates. [/B][/QUOTE] awe come on man, it's for the "greater good", Like HollyWood's movie Swordfish:cool: hmm come to think of it since the US went nuke crazy at the end of the war, Hitler couldn't have done much worse.:o

Hussar -> (6/27/2002 7:55:52 PM)
What if.. Britain had not stood alone after the fall of France defying the Nazis and then single handedly (with Pilots from all over the Empire and the US and the defeated countries of Europe)defeated the Luftwaffe thereby preventing the Naxi invasion of Britain? Only Captain Mainwaring to defend Britain against the beastly Hun (You have to be a Brit to understand that one!) No North African campaign and so all those German Divisions released for Barbarossa and a German victory in Russia. The Japanese receiving oil and supplies from their Axis partners who now have all of the material reserves of the British Empire, before they attack the US interests in the Pacific...it doesn't bear thinking about. Thank God for the British!

Gary Tatro -> Re: Re: That is Without a Doubt.... (6/27/2002 9:19:24 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Egg_Shen [B] awe come on man, it's for the "greater good", Like HollyWood's movie Swordfish:cool: hmm come to think of it since the US went nuke crazy at the end of the war, Hitler couldn't have done much worse.:o [/B][/QUOTE] Egg_Shen Either the history books your reading are vastly different from the ones that I read or you just have not taken the time to sit down and read about the end of the war. It was not crazyness, it was about saving lives and ending the war. Japan refused to surrender. It was calculated that the death toll would have been astronomical to try an amphibious invations of Japan proper. This was the reason for Heroshima. The bomb was used to save soliders lives and end the war and that is what it did. The US then went in and rebuilt the whole Country. Gave it the industrial foundation to make it into the commercial power that it is today. I see in your profile that you young. But you should still know about the Holocast. It was not propoganda trust me. I have a Grand father that was there in 1945. He has pictures. He almost never talked about it, but when he did it gave me nightmares. I feel that our Country does what it has to do. The alternatives I feel are worse. Genocide, starvation, plague. I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. But please remember that the US citizen is just like every other person in the world. They go to work, try to get ahead, raise a family and try to lead a good life. I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred.

Easy8 -> (6/27/2002 9:23:24 PM)
Gary, Well put. I owe you a beer or beverage of your choice! Let's PBEM sometime!

Kevin E. Duguay -> (6/27/2002 10:35:18 PM)
Stalin surrenderd the western Soviet Union to Germany in late 1941 early 1942. This was a real possibility. There were talks going on between Soviet reps and the Bulgarian Ambassador with the results of these talks going directly to Hitler. In the end of course the Russians desided to stand fast. Probably because of reassurances from the British of their full support. Churchill behind the sceens again? On the other hand Hitler may not have accepted the surrender and may still have tried to take it all. But what if?;)

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