RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (Full Version)

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06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/26/2009 8:00:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

The irony is that in the UK now there's a shift towards financial management and targets rather than improving services. This is driven by government, and local managers spend more time bean counting than actually managing service delivery. There's never enough money for anything and yet the services continue to treat people, successfully for the most part. I can see that at some point, we'll end up with a two tier system. Those who can pay and elect for "better", "faster" services and those who by design or circumstance must use the state run and funded system. None of the governments we've had in recent years have had the courage to make anything other than small changes in NHS policy and often screw it up when they try. It's a very political hot potato and the majority of the UK population would happily burn at the stake any government who suggested scrapping the current system. It's a vicious circle.


I have also read somewhere that the health care system workers/union is the largest employer in the UK; to buck that organization would be political suicide. The same will eventually be the case here. I would imagine that the US system will eventually be the largest employer in the world outside of the Chinese military.

The bill that just passed is unworkable for private insurance-they will fail, and those that passed it know it. This was just a first step. Hello socialism.
However, there are at least 7 States that have already initiated legal action (or are looking into) to block this law from those States. It ain't over till its over.




LarryP -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/26/2009 8:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
Well, at least you're man enough to admit you blew it. It's all your fault-[:D]

Hey Jim, don't give up the hope. Most of us like to keep track of Santa-that is, the one on the North Pole.[;)]

Lol! [:D]

I think this is one of those subjects which should be with religion and politics - banned in polite company. I suspect it's so emotive because it affects us all personally.


It's political here and that should get this thread stopped for sure.

However it was very interesting to see your view on it there in Britain. You cleared some things up for me at least. Thanks Jim. [&o]




leastonh1 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/26/2009 9:07:45 PM)

Maestro - Yes, you've heard correctly. The NHS is the largest employer in the UK and it has a fond place in the heart of the population. Political suicide is an understatement. Instead, they whittle away at it a small piece at time. People either don't notice or don't want to. Either way, it's heading in the wrong direction for a sustained future and is heartbreaking to watch. If only it were managed more effectively....!

LarryP - Hehe, I'm surprised this thread is still here and that it's remained so polite [:)]

The thing is, my explanation is only my take on the way things are. I'm seeing it from an end user perspective and from the inside as an employee. I honestly don't like what I see from either side of that coin. Again, my very limited knowledge of the way things work in the US means I don't envy you either. That's probably just my ignorance as much as anything else. But, it's sort of ingrained in a lot of Brits that all healthcare should be free at the point of delivery, for everyone. We have had it for so long now that we can't imagine any other way being better [:)]




Zap -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/26/2009 10:12:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Zap

I hope the day never comes (and I truly do) when you have such a serious injury or illness that your healthcare runs out...because when that happens, you'll be on the same playing field as the many hundreds of thousands (millions? I don't know) of other people that don't have healthcare because their wallet wasn't fat enough...then you may feel how the little people feel...abandoned

God forbid the day when it comes when an ambulance leaves me at the side of the road because I don't have my credit card on me!

Apparently good will to all men (as long as you can afford it)?? Is that the caveat?

Oooops...I did say I'd leave didn't I?...[sm=scared0018.gif]...sorry...again...shame on me [:-] I will leave now...I pwomise





I know Judge, its hard to stay silent on this one. I promise I will conclude to respect matrix rules.

Judge maybe you don't understand this but here we already have emergency help and no one is denied care (not even the poorest of the poor). Which is why its suspect that a national care program is being proposed. Except for the fact that we have a socialist president who wants to imbed more socialism here.




Greybriar -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 12:35:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

....I know Judge, its hard to stay silent on this one. I promise I will conclude to respect matrix rules.

Judge maybe you don't understand this but here we already have emergency help and no one is denied care (not even the poorest of the poor). Which is why its suspect that a national care program is being proposed. Except for the fact that we have a socialist president who wants to imbed more socialism here.


I don't know which is the bigger lie.

Drop it. NOW!




jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 12:48:57 AM)

Actually, regardless of the merits of health care reform in the US, no one is denied care in the US.  That's a fact.   

For the record, I support single payer health care reform for the US, i.e., some form of nationalized health care.  And I'm generally a conservative.    




Greybriar -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 1:10:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JW

Actually, regardless of the merits of health care reform in the US, no one is denied care in the US.  That's a fact.   

For the record, I support single payer health care reform for the US, i.e., some form of nationalized health care.  And I'm generally a conservative.    


Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!




jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 1:17:15 AM)

Don't tell me I'm lying and then tell me to drop it. That absolutely guarantees a response. And I stand by what I said. If you are arguing that those who cannot afford to pay for insurance or medical care receive a lower quality of care, I agree. But medical care is available for anyone who needs it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: JW

Actually, regardless of the merits of health care reform in the US, no one is denied care in the US.  That's a fact.   

For the record, I support single payer health care reform for the US, i.e., some form of nationalized health care.  And I'm generally a conservative.    


Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!





Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 1:41:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar




Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!



Who died and made you Arbiter of Truth?

The typical liberal attitude is telling.[8|]




06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 2:09:46 AM)

The real problem with the American health care "system" is that its costs have accelerated far above the average inflation rate. It is becoming too expensive-oddly enough, too expensive for doctors to stay in business too.

It is ironic that the primary reason for this bad situation is health care that is given for "free" to a few groups of people who have not earned it. As there is no such thing as a "free lunch", someone is paying for these services. It is all the regular folks that have to pay higher premiums and the doctors that have to deal with group plans with agreed payments that are too low that are paying the price.

There is an unfortunate group of lower middle class that should have/need insurance but cannot afford it. Some kind of plan should be devised to help those folks. However, the 10 million or so that are in that situation does not warrant giving 15% of the US economy to the very buffoons that caused the problem in the first place. The figure of 47 million that was repeatly tossed around is an outright lie. That includes various groups that do not have insurance including those that do not need it and illegals. Fortunately, it appears that the vast majority of illegals don't know they are currently entitled. Those that do create a big enough problem as it is.

While it is true that some people here cannot get some medical care or medication that they may need, no one is denied emergency treatment anywhere. There are also county hospitals in all parts of the country that treat people w/o insurance. If you are in America, just go down to any hospital and you can read the signs yourself-in various languages.

Personally, I would much rather contend with a private insurance company which I can fire at will (almost) than some tin pot Caesar with an attitude which I have no control over.

NOW DROP IT! [:D][:D]Just kidding-that is somebody else's job to make that determination.




Jevhaddah -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 2:47:59 AM)

My wife suffered a brain Aneurysm in January, she was taken to hospital and had her coiling operation within 24 hours on the NHS and is now well on the mend... I myself am severerly disabled and would have died many years ago if not for the NHS.

My twin girls were born at 26 weeks and are now 16 years, without the NHS they would be dead.

Sooo I am a bit biased on the good work the NHS does.

I cannot speak for anyone elses experiences but in my 51 years I have no complaints.

Private healthcare IS an option in the UK for those that feel the need, personaly I can't afford it and because of my injuries would not be accepted for it even if I could aford it.

Looks like the Santa on the plane better have his health insurance paid up... unless he is covered by the NHS [:D]

Cheers

Jev





06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 3:32:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah


Private healthcare IS an option in the UK for those that feel the need, personaly I can't afford it and because of my injuries would not be accepted for it even if I could aford it.

Jev


It sounds like you would qualify for coverage under Social Security Disability here in the States. I'm not sure how much someone is given each month to live on, but your medical is covered. IIRC, living funds are provided based upon previous earnings, with a base rate. If you never could work, the stipend might be a little on the low side. Even if that is the case, you could comfort yourself with the thought that the Congress and Senate got some hefty pay raises each year. [:D]

OK-now I feel like I crossed the line-almost. I just couldn't help myself.

One little question before it is too late; do UK MP's have their own separate insurance plan and government pension plan? They do in the US. This is another little thing that frosts many (like me) Americans. If they participated in the same plans, perhaps they would care for those a little more.




Qwixt -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 3:47:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

The bill that just passed is unworkable for private insurance-they will fail, and those that passed it know it. This was just a first step. Hello socialism.


I just had to say that this is hardly the first step, and far from being the end of the world.

Government Worker Programs
Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System

Housing & Urban Development (HUD) Programs
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance

Social Security Programs
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan

Welfare Programs
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)

Programs That Threaten Liberties in General
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
Import Tariffs




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 3:53:39 AM)

It's more off topic than you know. Nobody in the United States objects to affordable health care. This is about transfering wealth from working class families into a political slush fund. It aint about health care; it's about zillions in draconian tax increases.




06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 4:14:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

My wife suffered a brain Aneurysm in January, she was taken to hospital and had her coiling operation within 24 hours on the NHS and is now well on the mend... I myself am severerly disabled and would have died many years ago if not for the NHS.

My twin girls were born at 26 weeks and are now 16 years, without the NHS they would be dead.

Sooo I am a bit biased on the good work the NHS does.

I cannot speak for anyone elses experiences but in my 51 years I have no complaints.

Private healthcare IS an option in the UK for those that feel the need, personaly I can't afford it and because of my injuries would not be accepted for it even if I could aford it.

Looks like the Santa on the plane better have his health insurance paid up... unless he is covered by the NHS [:D]

Cheers

Jev



Re-reading this post I get the impression that some of you outlanders have the wrong idea about the system here. DO you think we are a bunch of barbarians? Come on now; there are a myriad of social security nets in the US to help nearly everyone. Jev, you, your wife and your daughters would have been taken care of here-and quite well. The worst case scenario would have been if you were able bodied, working, without insurance and had a home which could be gone after by collectors. But...in large parts of the country homeowners can "homestead" your primary residence. In that case you can tell the collectors to go pound sand.

Believe it or not, there are people that do not want anything from the government-except to be left in peace. I know men that refuse to collect their social security pension-they would rather keep working.

It sounds like the UK has a good system, but one which is under the same pressures as the "system" in the U.S. Funny how these things worked well in the past, but are now on the ropes. I don't know about you, but I did not do anything to break the system.

I could really rant on this subject-I'll keep it short. I watched as a once very good insurance plan went down the toilet because of "do gooders". I was an agent for the Carpenters Union here some years ago. I was quite familiar with the health plan. I will give one little example of what started happening in the early '90's. Vision care was dropped (from a previous unlimited amounts minus frames) dental was capped at 1500 per year and a lifetime cap of 3000 from a previous amount that would have been adequate for any family for any amount of time. Why did those changes come into being? Because of what was called a MAP program. A program to get dope heads off of drugs. The amounts allotted for MAP at the same time the others were being slashed was 30,000 per year with no lifetime cap (or a very high cap amount-can't remember for sure). The real kick in all that is the the shrinks and shelters are apparently incapable of curring about 97% of the people that go through those programs. Most can stay clean for a few months and that is it. I said then, and I still say it; if you have some mental problem, take it to a priest or your mommy, at least you'll get someone who cares. Whatever, don't put your selfish bs problems on my back. Because, frankly, I don't give a damn.

If not for that kind of "planning" and allowing tens of millions of non payer's to suck off the system, it would have been just fine. The system was broken by those that write the law-and now some think that those same kings (or current jargon might be Czars) will fix it. Excuse me while I go laugh.





06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 4:23:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

The bill that just passed is unworkable for private insurance-they will fail, and those that passed it know it. This was just a first step. Hello socialism.


I just had to say that this is hardly the first step, and far from being the end of the world.




Non of those programs ensured the destruction of private health insurance-not even close. Keep in mind that when the biggest of your listed programs began, it was just a drop in the bucket, so to speak. You cannot seriously compare those to the current goals. Again, the current bill is not going to work and is viewed as a required first step (legally) to breaking the insurance companies. Health reform has only just begun.

And, BTW, import tariffs was the method originally used to fund the U.S. It clearly worked better than what they practice today. No tariffs encourages unfair trade with slave labor markets. How that can threaten liberties in the US is a stretch of the imagination.




06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 4:29:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

It's more off topic than you know. Nobody in the United States objects to affordable health care. This is about transfering wealth from working class families into a political slush fund. It aint about health care; it's about zillions in draconian tax increases.


And those taxes will be going into effect real soon-even though there will be virtually no benefit for 4 years.
Who wants to make a bet that the government will save that money for its intended purposes. [:D]

Anyway Doggie, you hit the nail on the head. But, the plan itself is still ridiculous in itself.

A better idea might be to conquer some other planet and have them pay taxes to provide earthlings with health insurance. No earthling should have to be troubled by such trivial matters.




leastonh1 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 8:35:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
One little question before it is too late; do UK MP's have their own separate insurance plan and government pension plan? They do in the US. This is another little thing that frosts many (like me) Americans. If they participated in the same plans, perhaps they would care for those a little more.

That's a good question. Officially, MP's and even the royal family use the NHS and even attend NHS hospitals, as opposed to private facilities. However, many NHS hospitals now have wards and suites specifically set aside for only "private" patients. E.g. those with private health care insurance. So, although those in privileged positions make a huge song and dance about attending the same hospitals us plebs use, I am pretty certain they don't end up in the same wards.

Having said that, I'd imagine even many of those people are still genuine champions of the NHS.




Greybriar -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 11:34:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar




Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!



Who died and made you Arbiter of Truth?

The typical liberal attitude is telling.[8|]


Precisely why I wanted the topic dropped. R&P aren't allowed here.

Third time is supposed to be a charm, so let's try one last time: Drop it. NOW!

Personally I think it's past time for this thread to be locked.




vonRocko -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 3:06:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar




Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!



Who died and made you Arbiter of Truth?

The typical liberal attitude is telling.[8|]


Precisely why I wanted the topic dropped. R&P aren't allowed here.

Third time is supposed to be a charm, so let's try one last time: Drop it. NOW!

Personally I think it's past time for this thread to be locked.

Greybriar, here's an idea,why not stop looking at this thread if it bothers you?Stop reading and replying! NOW!




Jevhaddah -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 4:36:27 PM)

Wotcha...06 Maestro..

My post about the NHS was to give my personal experience of it and how its existence aided my family. This was in reply to the comments that the NHS was dire.

I cannot speak for anyone else or judge the healthcare system in other parts of the world as I have no experience of them and meant no offence with my post.

My own injuries occured when I was on active service in the Royal Navy and in the 20 odd years since the BIG BANG that caused them I came to realise that I have a lot to thank the UK Health System for.

No system is perfect though and there are those that will abuse it if they can.

Cheers

Jev







06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 4:57:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
Greybriar, here's an idea,why not stop looking at this thread if it bothers you?Stop reading and replying! NOW!


Hmm, does that make sense? By George, I think it does. VonRocko, you stop that, NOW! [:D]




06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 5:08:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
One little question before it is too late; do UK MP's have their own separate insurance plan and government pension plan? They do in the US. This is another little thing that frosts many (like me) Americans. If they participated in the same plans, perhaps they would care for those a little more.

That's a good question. Officially, MP's and even the royal family use the NHS and even attend NHS hospitals, as opposed to private facilities. However, many NHS hospitals now have wards and suites specifically set aside for only "private" patients. E.g. those with private health care insurance. So, although those in privileged positions make a huge song and dance about attending the same hospitals us plebs use, I am pretty certain they don't end up in the same wards.

Having said that, I'd imagine even many of those people are still genuine champions of the NHS.


Thanks for the info. I would say that speaks well (or better) of British officials than their American counterparts.

A month or so ago there was a petition (started by a Congressman) that demanded that the US Congress/Senate utilize the program which is being developed. I could not sign it as every time I tried to get to the web site it was jambed-too busy. Thanks to this thread, I remembered about it-time to try again.




06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 5:19:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

No system is perfect though and there are those that will abuse it if they can.

Cheers

Jev


So true. Not all abusers are those seeking medical treatment.
Cheers




jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 5:21:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar




Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!



Who died and made you Arbiter of Truth?

The typical liberal attitude is telling.[8|]


Precisely why I wanted the topic dropped. R&P aren't allowed here.

Third time is supposed to be a charm, so let's try one last time: Drop it. NOW!

Personally I think it's past time for this thread to be locked.


Actually you went a step further than just asking people to drop the thread, don't you think?




jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 5:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

Wotcha...06 Maestro..

My post about the NHS was to give my personal experience of it and how its existence aided my family. This was in reply to the comments that the NHS was dire.

I cannot speak for anyone else or judge the healthcare system in other parts of the world as I have no experience of them and meant no offence with my post.

My own injuries occured when I was on active service in the Royal Navy and in the 20 odd years since the BIG BANG that caused them I came to realise that I have a lot to thank the UK Health System for.

No system is perfect though and there are those that will abuse it if they can.

Cheers

Jev






My own views about health care were shaped by my military career and in particular by the great work done by the folks at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington and since I retired from the Army by the great folks in the Veterans Administration system. You hear about tremendous problems in the military and VA systems, but they have always been great to me. Saved my life. Twice. It's why I have no problem with single payer. Been there, done that, all of my adult life.




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 8:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

Precisely why I wanted the topic dropped. R&P aren't allowed here.

Third time is supposed to be a charm, so let's try one last time: Drop it. NOW!

Personally I think it's past time for this thread to be locked.



It's all about what you want, huh? So let's try one more time : bite me.
I don't care what you want. I don't answer to you. You know where you can shove your rightous indignation.

Nobody is talking about religion. Politics are allowed here all the time, as political decisions are what leads to wars, and wars are what war gaming is all about. What's frowned on is personal abuse, like when you called Mister Maestro a liar, and decided you are the guy who's going to tell everyone else how things are going to be around here. Newsflash -no, you aint. Nobody cares what you don't like.

Now even if things are a bit off topic here, everybody else is being civil to each other. Everybody but you, the self rightous wanna be forum fuhrer. So how about you use your free health care to address this psychotic meglomania you seem to be suffering from? Or you could kick your cat. I've heard animal abuse is one of the warning signs displayed by sociopaths like yourself.




Sarge -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 10:05:20 PM)

Get a load of this guy...................lmao
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I don't know which is the bigger lie.

Drop it. NOW!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar
Quit distorting the truth.

And once again I say: Drop it. NOW!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

Precisely why I wanted the topic dropped. R&P aren't allowed here.

Third time is supposed to be a charm, so let's try one last time: Drop it. NOW!

Personally I think it's past time for this thread to be locked.




[image]local://upfiles/8678/8386949F35F34CB2880E4634F941B6EF.jpg[/image]




PunkReaper -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 10:41:04 PM)

My experience of the Uk National health Service has always been excellent. Whether same day free visits to the doctor for minor illnesses, to quick efficient surgery for my son's broken back to the numerous scans, radiotherapy, surgery and drugs for my wife's brain tumour. All free..... all without worry about hitting limits of cover etc.... I will admit I don't know much about the American system but the lies I have read on the USA websites about the Uk system recently has made my blood boil....... [:@][:@][:@]. I personally don't care what system the US adopts but it saddens me to see politicians lying to fulfill their own political agendas.

Now like JD I will shut up ....................... NOW!




Chijohnaok2 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 10:52:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

My experience of the Uk National health Service has always been excellent. Whether same day free visits to the doctor for minor illnesses, to quick efficient surgery for my son's broken back to the numerous scans, radiotherapy, surgery and drugs for my wife's brain tumour. All free..... all without worry about hitting limits of cover etc.... I will admit I don't know much about the American system but the lies I have read on the USA websites about the Uk system recently has made my blood boil....... [:@][:@][:@]. I personally don't care what system the US adopts but it saddens me to see politicians lying to fulfill their own political agendas.

Now like JD I will shut up ....................... NOW!


Question to you and others in the UK.

If the NHS is excellent, then why are there some in the UK that come here to the US for treatment?

[I am not trying to provoke an arguement. I am genuinely curious.]




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