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mjk428 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 8:24:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

The point is you don't have to take a second thought about visiting the Doctor.

if you are sick you make the visit without having to check your bank balance first.

Healthcare is one of those inalieanable rights.


Can you think of any other inalienable rights that not exercising (via purchasing a private health insurance plan) will run you afoul of the law? That's part of the plan that's being hammered out here right now.

Also:

quote:

A Less Than Honest Policy

By BOB HERBERT
Published: December 28, 2009

There is a middle-class tax time bomb ticking in the Senate’s version of President Obama’s effort to reform health care.

The bill that passed the Senate with such fanfare on Christmas Eve would impose a confiscatory 40 percent excise tax on so-called Cadillac health plans, which are popularly viewed as over-the-top plans held only by the very wealthy. In fact, it’s a tax that in a few years will hammer millions of middle-class policyholders, forcing them to scale back their access to medical care.

Which is exactly what the tax is designed to do.

The tax would kick in on plans exceeding $23,000 annually for family coverage and $8,500 for individuals, starting in 2013. In the first year it would affect relatively few people in the middle class. But because of the steadily rising costs of health care in the U.S., more and more plans would reach the taxation threshold each year.

Within three years of its implementation, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax would apply to nearly 20 percent of all workers with employer-provided health coverage in the country, affecting some 31 million people. Within six years, according to Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation, the tax would reach a fifth of all households earning between $50,000 and $75,000 annually. Those families can hardly be considered very wealthy.

Proponents say the tax will raise nearly $150 billion over 10 years, but there’s a catch. It’s not expected to raise this money directly. The dirty little secret behind this onerous tax is that no one expects very many people to pay it. The idea is that rather than fork over 40 percent in taxes on the amount by which policies exceed the threshold, employers (and individuals who purchase health insurance on their own) will have little choice but to ratchet down the quality of their health plans.

These lower-value plans would have higher out-of-pocket costs, thus increasing the very things that are so maddening to so many policyholders right now: higher and higher co-payments, soaring deductibles and so forth. Some of the benefits of higher-end policies can be expected in many cases to go by the boards: dental and vision care, for example, and expensive mental health coverage.

Proponents say this is a terrific way to hold down health care costs. If policyholders have to pay more out of their own pockets, they will be more careful — that is to say, more reluctant — to access health services. On the other hand, people with very serious illnesses will be saddled with much higher out-of-pocket costs. And a reluctance to seek treatment for something that might seem relatively minor at first could well have terrible (and terribly expensive) consequences in the long run.

If even the plan’s proponents do not expect policyholders to pay the tax, how will it raise $150 billion in a decade? Great question.

We all remember learning in school about the suspension of disbelief. This part of the Senate’s health benefits taxation scheme requires a monumental suspension of disbelief. According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, less than 18 percent of the revenue will come from the tax itself. The rest of the $150 billion, more than 82 percent of it, will come from the income taxes paid by workers who have been given pay raises by employers who will have voluntarily handed over the money they saved by offering their employees less valuable health insurance plans.

Can you believe it?

I asked Richard Trumka, president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., about this. (Labor unions are outraged at the very thought of a health benefits tax.) I had to wait for him to stop laughing to get his answer. “If you believe that,” he said, “I have some oceanfront property in southwestern Pennsylvania that I will sell you at a great price.”

A survey of business executives by Mercer, a human resources consulting firm, found that only 16 percent of respondents said they would convert the savings from a reduction in health benefits into higher wages for employees. Yet proponents of the tax are holding steadfast to the belief that nearly all would do so.

“In the real world, companies cut costs and they pocket the money,” said Larry Cohen, president of the Communications Workers of America and a leader of the opposition to the tax. “Executives tell the shareholders: ‘Hey, higher profits without any revenue growth. Great!’ ”

The tax on health benefits is being sold to the public dishonestly as something that will affect only the rich, and it makes a mockery of President Obama’s repeated pledge that if you like the health coverage you have now, you can keep it.

Those who believe this is a good idea should at least have the courage to be straight about it with the American people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/opinion/29herbert.html?_r=1&hp





Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 8:44:52 PM)

What the heck does a $23,000per annum health insurance premium get you... Daily pickups for complete body scans in a stretch Limo staffed with attractive escorts?


I paid $400 last year for all health costs (premium for dental cover).  Dental care is working it's way through the system so i should be able to drop that insurance pretty soon.


If your system didn't encourage rampant over servicing then maybe "cadillac health plans" wouldn't be on offer.

i guess it's a result of having health services corporatized and supplied as a business and not truly as a service as it should be..




vonRocko -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 9:10:22 PM)

Let's not forget to put some of the blame on the hospitals and doctors themselves. I recently had a cat scan,I was in the machine no more than 5 minutes. The hospital asked my insurance for $16,000 dollars! More than 3 thousand a minute! This machine has been in this hospital for 20 yrs. It has been paid for a million times over.Even including the labor of the techs,doctors,nurses and receptionists, this is insane.


I don't have an answer,and I don't support the current scam going on, but things can't continue like this.




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 9:38:38 PM)

Yes, it would be intersting to find out how "Costs" are calculated.

But the 'system" is long standing and change will be difficult... but the sooner things start the sooner you can throw off the dead weight you are stuck with.




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 9:48:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

It's more off topic than you know. Nobody in the United States objects to affordable health care. This is about transfering wealth from working class families into a political slush fund. It aint about health care; it's about zillions in draconian tax increases.

What wealth do you have to transfer? Do you even have a job? Don't you basically live off of welfare and pity?




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 10:05:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

I see you've never had a quality time piece. I can go to Walmart and buy a watch for $10 and have it last a year but if I bout a Movado for $600 I can keep it for 10 years. That's why they issue 10 year warranties for one and 60 days for another

[image]http://seriouslulz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm-570x456.jpg[/image]




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 10:16:02 PM)

Removing palms from face.

my father had top health insurance for a while.

He had a medical emergency and when i visited there was a Grand Piano in the lobby and leather lounges.

When it came time for his procedure he was transported to the Public Hospital where all patients are treated. (He had excellent and successful treatment)

After discussing this with him he now no longer pays for "health insurance" seeing it for the scam that it is.




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 10:17:12 PM)

Emobama

two posts total on an off topic discussion is a bit of a worry.


:)




Zap -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:13:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

But is'nt it a lot of dictactating to each individual what they can and can't do? when to do it and how to do it.
For the controlling my life by the government. I can't accept this health care. And I don't want pay for somebody to get an abortion.

So Santa bring us a better option.






Since this thread continues I guees its okay. So I will break my imposed exclusion from the thread.
Since no one has objected to this statement above. No one disagrees then, that the government is taking control and will force us to make decisions we don't want. And in many cases going against peoples religious beliefs. EX: With our taxeswill fund abortions. For over 50% of americans we believe it is killing of innocents. So we have to contend with a government who does not respect our religious beliefs. As well they have proposed to force doctors to to perform abortions against there own beliefs.

The gornment will do similar things in other issues. I take issue with the lessoning of my freedoms.




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:19:44 PM)

I didn't realise that there were no abortions carried out in the US under the present system




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:35:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I didn't realise that there were no abortions carried out in the US under the present system

[image]http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/forums/a/ga/ul/3301032188/inlineimg/Y/missed_the_point.jpg[/image]




Qwixt -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:44:01 PM)

I don't believe all the doom and gloom, and I don't believe all rosy talk either like it will all pay for itself. I am glad that the bill at least attempts to close some loop holes. It's tempered with the fact that nothing these clowns (Reps and Senators) pass will be effectual since most of them are all in the pocket of Big Insurance, which is why there is no public option. These insurance companies are are criminal with their tactics in my opinion. I think some of these insurance CEOs should be tried on manslaughter charges for their delaying and denying tactics.




Qwixt -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emobama
http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/forums/a/ga/ul/3301032188/inlineimg/Y/missed_the_point.jpg


So you created this new alias just to post here

[8|]

Really, who is being the emo one here




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/29/2009 11:49:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

So you created this new alias just to post here

[8|]

Really, who is being the emo one here

If Qwixt is not an alias your parents did something wrong.




Sarge -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I didn't realise that there were no abortions carried out in the US under the present system


You really are baiting a heated discussion aren’t you .

That “Administrator” tag is only going to carry your opinions so far……..[8|]




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:13:39 AM)

"MISSED THE POINT"

Was the point made that zap's freedoms included controlling others and that health reform would take away his mastery of them?

I'm not sure what the point was




105mm Howitzer -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:19:00 AM)

Doesn't this thread title read something about Santa tracked by NORAD ?




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:23:03 AM)

yeh

My 8 yr old tracked him from the start of the countdown until he went to bed... great stuff.




jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:24:16 AM)

Yep, it appears the decorum that held up for a while on this thread has collapsed.




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:26:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emobama


What wealth do you have to transfer? Do you even have a job? Don't you basically live off of welfare and pity?


Eureka, we have a troll.[:D] An enlightened leftist with four posts to his credit who uses irrefutable logic and reasoning to advance his point of view.

Obviously the product of a liberal education system, I am defenseless against his superior knowledge of the topic at hand and his mastery of english prose. Plenty of resources at hand as well, as he seems to have deployed a private investigator who knows I'm a crack addict who lives in a housing project. My secret is out. Yes, it's true, I'm an illiterate high school drop out with bad teeth and no pedigree. After all these years, my apalling ignorance has been unmasked. Please don't reveal my criminal record. My parole officer might hear about it and confiscate my computer.

So is Andrew going to do an IP match and tell us who is so cowardly he has to create a new sock puppet user name to enlighten the masses about my sordid existence?




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:28:06 AM)

quote:

You really are baiting a heated discussion aren’t you .

That “Administrator” tag is only going to carry your opinions so far……..



the posts in this thread have piqued my interest, for sure.


It is amazing how much baggage Health reforms have to carry around, and the opposition to an "alternate" system is quite confusing given the almost general acceptance that the current system is unworkable.

It seems even religion is called in to support an argument even when the discussion is much more down to earth.


But it is interesting hearing a few different points of view.




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:37:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Eureka, we have a troll.[:D] An enlightened leftist with four posts to his credit who uses irrefutable logic and reasoning to advance his point of view.

Obviously the product of a liberal education system, I am defenseless against his superior knowledge of the topic at hand and his mastery of english prose. Plenty of resources at hand as well, as he seems to have deployed a private investigator who knows I'm a crack addict who lives in a housing project. My secret is out. Yes, it's true, I'm an illiterate high school drop out with bad teeth and no pedigree. After all these years, my apalling ignorance has been unmasked. Please don't reveal my criminal record. My parole officer might hear about it and confiscate my computer.

So is Andrew going to do an IP match and tell us who is so cowardly he has to create a new sock puppet user name to enlighten the masses about my sordid existence?

You calling someone else a troll? [:D]

But you avoided the issues. Do you have a job? You certainly get more than your share in government handouts so I am not sure what your problem is with other people getting some too? Maybe you are afraid it will cut into your hand outs.




Emobama -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:40:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

"MISSED THE POINT"

Was the point made that zap's freedoms included controlling others and that health reform would take away his mastery of them?

I'm not sure what the point was


The problem is that there are abortions in this country now but that people who do not believe in abortions, among other things, based on religious belief would be forced to pay for abortions. This is something that would cause a lot of problems and would certainly blur the line of separation between church and state.




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:44:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams



Nothing better than ignorance to show up ones personal xenophobic view of the world... but let's let that slide.


Well, let's not let the fact that a guy who dismisses an American's view of what's happening in his own community as ignorant zenophobia lives on the other side of the world and has no actual first hand knowledge or experience with the American health care system reflect on his obvious moral superiority.


quote:

Nothing worse than a stupid point of view expressed poorly.

man, the world is full of foreigners... just get used to it.




Nothing worse than resorting to personal attacks when you are unable to present your point of view in a logical, reasoned manner. The world is full of foreigners, and most of them don't live nearly as well as us ignorant, xenophobic westerners. Why on earth shoild we strive to be more like them? I have been to Mexico and a dozen other counties and have experienced multi culturaliusm first hand, and I don't want to live in a refridgerator packing crate like the inhabitants of socialist paradises.




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:51:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

But it is interesting hearing a few different points of view.




Like the point of view expressed by our brand new liberal intellectual sock puppet?>




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 12:55:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emobama



You calling someone else a troll? [:D]


Uh, yeah. A lot of people here, including most of the administrators, know who I am, where I live, and are not afraid to hide behind a sock puppet account if they have something to say to me.





Chijohnaok2 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 1:07:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emobama



You calling someone else a troll? [:D]


Uh, yeah. A lot of people here, including most of the administrators, know who I am, where I live, and are not afraid to hide behind a sock puppet account if they have something to say to me.




I can vouch for that.

Emo, if you PM Doggie your mailing address he might be nice enough to put you on his Christmas card list for next year......




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 1:07:13 AM)

I think I have crossed your path before?




Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 1:11:01 AM)

quote:

administrators, know who I am, where I live, and are not afraid to hide behind a sock puppet account


I've already expressed my concern with this account.


he obviously thinks he knows you, but.......

His posts should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.




Sarge -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/30/2009 1:18:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

quote:

You really are baiting a heated discussion aren’t you .

That “Administrator” tag is only going to carry your opinions so far……..


the posts in this thread have piqued my interest, for sure.

{snip…………..opinion}

It seems even religion is called in to support an argument even when the discussion is much more down to earth.

But it is interesting hearing a few different points of view.



Interest and condescending have two different definitions, maybe you should go back and read what your posting . secondly religion is not “called in ” like the race card as your implying its considered as it should ……[;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams
Healthcare is one of those inalieanable rights.


I find this ludicrous but feel no need to attack you personally or demean Australia's heath care why do you ?




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