RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (Full Version)

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kfmiller41 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (2/28/2010 9:44:59 PM)

My wife already counts me as lost due to War in the pacific, this will just keep me gone for more years[:D]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (2/28/2010 9:45:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

elmo, how far do you intend to go with this AAR? Will you go as far as Taifun and the Soviet counter?


I'll keep it going as long as it is of value to Joel and company for AI testing. Of course any bugs encountered along the way add to the value. Looks like I'll be able to get part of the turn posted later tonight but maybe not all of it.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:56:59 AM)

As you will see shortly, Typhoon got an early start with shocking results.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:06:44 AM)

Elements of AGN continue to expand the bridgehead across the Luga.  We'll try to shift 4th Pz Grp armor and mot units across and into the relatively open country to the southwest of Leningrad while avoiding the swamps to the east.  Next turn I'll stretch the 16ht Army (off the bottom of the screen shot) lines so we can take more 4th Pz Grp out of the line an=d swing them west and then northeast.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARnorthturn13.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:18:32 AM)

Historically Operation Typhoon started during the first week of October.  My Operation Typhoon started the week of September 11th.  As you can see from the screen shot below it's looking like it will have far greater success than the historical operation.  The 17th Pz Div has entered W. Moscow and 3rd Pz Div and 10th Mot Div are at the gates of Moscow as well.  My intention was just to punch another hole in the Soviet line east of Vyazma, which succeeded.  However as I sent advance units through the hole they encountered almost no resistance and just kept rolling.  They are badly overextended and will be short of supply next turn.  If we get a Mud turn they will really be hurting but it was a risk worth taking in my estimation.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARcenterturn13.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:26:09 AM)

On the AGS front the Soviet AI must have decided Kiev was going to fall and teh best thing to do was withdraw to a better defensive line.  It left one division in Kiev which was easily swept aside.  We followed up with 1st Pz Grp breaking through the reformed line to the southeast of Kiev.  We'll have to decide whether to continue east to Kharkov or turn southeast toward Dnepropetrovsk in the upcoming turns.  Most likely it will be the latter in the hope of tyring to pocket Soviet forces along the Rumanian front.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARsouthturn13.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:33:02 AM)

Not much progress on the Rumanian front compared to elsewhere this turn.  That is probably an understatement.   [:'(]  Note the partisan unit behind our lines.  I noticed a few of them cropping this turn and left this one alive long enough to put it in the screen shot.  It might also be a bug that it formed in the same hex with a Rumanian HQ.  Will have to check on that later.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARRumaniaturn13.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:56:26 AM)

Losses through turn 13:

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARtrn13groundlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARtrn13airlosses.jpg[/image]



paullus99 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 2:21:04 AM)

Wow - that's a full-blooded thrust to Moscow. That kind of advance historically might just have caused the collapse of the government (maybe). Looks like the AI might need a bit of tweaking to protect the vital approaches.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 2:26:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Wow - that's a full-blooded thrust to Moscow. That kind of advance historically might just have caused the collapse of the government (maybe). Looks like the AI might need a bit of tweaking to protect the vital approaches.


Keep in mind that there are no victory conditions yet to encourage the AI to hold certain ground. Moscow is no different than any other city to the AI. We're still in alpha and there will be more improvements to the AI.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 4:10:13 AM)

That would be such a great tactic for a smart Russian player, let the German forces break thru, advance into what they think is empty space and then have a large force ready in Moscow to cut off that spearhead[:D] 



Muzrub -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 5:34:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Wow - that's a full-blooded thrust to Moscow. That kind of advance historically might just have caused the collapse of the government (maybe). Looks like the AI might need a bit of tweaking to protect the vital approaches.


Keep in mind that there are no victory conditions yet to encourage the AI to hold certain ground. Moscow is no different than any other city to the AI. We're still in alpha and there will be more improvements to the AI.


Taking note that no victory conditions have been enabled- my question is if victory conditions were enacted how would the other theaters AG-S and AG-N be finding their opposition?

A little light on the ground maybe?

Simply do the Russians have sufficient forces to mount a defense of Moscow, Leningrad and keep the South patched?

You seem to have the Soviets checked, from North to South- and with probably increased losses due to attempts to hold the as yet un-enabled victory point hexes, will this game be a push over? You are basically at the gates of Moscow as we speak.



Platypus -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 6:33:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stian

Man this AAR's got me really psyched for this game... I can sit at work and stare at those screenshots forever, my coworkers think I'm being very concentrated [:D] ***snip***


Psyched up and cashed up, ready for this release -- will the GER occupation of West Moscow trigger a flood of SOV units into the Capital, thus weakening other fronts? [sm=00000106.gif]


Will the reduction of SOV forces around Leningrad create opportunites for envelopment before the Mud & Ice Season, thus freeing AGN from the 900 Day Siege? [sm=duel.gif]


Or...have the GER forces taken a "Steppe Too Far?"

[sm=Evil-210.gif]



Riveting stuff -- let's hope that this AAR goes beyond Spring 1942.

cheers



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 10:39:40 AM)

elmo: The most surprising thing to me isn't that you're in Moscow (which, with less focus on AGS, was still quite possible in September-October), but that (once more) there's not a single Soviet division in the city. Even if Moscow is a city like all others to the AI, it's still a city close to the front.

I'm also curious how those air units can be alive considering that they're next to 4 Panzer divisions.

I'm assuming you'll try to open the rail line to Moscow, the rail line that 11-2 Infantry Division has already partially cleared?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 11:19:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Taking note that no victory conditions have been enabled- my question is if victory conditions were enacted how would the other theaters AG-S and AG-N be finding their opposition?

A little light on the ground maybe?

Simply do the Russians have sufficient forces to mount a defense of Moscow, Leningrad and keep the South patched?

You seem to have the Soviets checked, from North to South- and with probably increased losses due to attempts to hold the as yet un-enabled victory point hexes, will this game be a push over? You are basically at the gates of Moscow as we speak.



Victory cities will be spread across the map and include major cities across the entire map. So that should not affect AGN or AGS other than to help focus the AI on holding the cities. I have not "cheated" and looked at the AI side of things but I suspect there are plenty of units left. They just need to be focused better.

Remember that just a couple of weeks ago we were considerably behind the historical timetable. It was mainly due to the breakthrough to Vyazma and the Moscow that put us ahead in the center.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Axis will be very vulnerable in a couple of months when the blizzards hit. If we don't consolidate our gains and dig in by then we will be in big trouble.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 11:25:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

elmo: The most surprising thing to me isn't that you're in Moscow (which, with less focus on AGS, was still quite possible in September-October), but that (once more) there's not a single Soviet division in the city. Even if Moscow is a city like all others to the AI, it's still a city close to the front.

I'm also curious how those air units can be alive considering that they're next to 4 Panzer divisions.

I'm assuming you'll try to open the rail line to Moscow, the rail line that 11-2 Infantry Division has already partially cleared?


The devs are aware of the issue with cities being undefended and it's certainly going to get fixed at some point.

The air units near Moscow are stacked with at least one combat unit or they would have displaced.

You can see my rail unit in Smolensk right now. It will move through Vyazma and the on to Moscow. There is another rail unit near Mogilev that will be converting eastward as well so we are not dependent on one line, in case the partisans cut the main line.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 11:50:57 AM)

quote:

The air units near Moscow are stacked with at least one combat unit or they would have displaced.


I was under the impression that combat units would always show on top of support/non-combat units in stacks. Is there a toggle/switch for that, it would be pretty time consuming to comb every stack to see if there's a combat unit in it.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 11:54:21 AM)

Edit - Wrong thread.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 11:58:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I was under the impression that combat units would always show on top of support/non-combat units in stacks. Is there a toggle/switch for that, it would be pretty time consuming to comb every stack to see if there's a combat unit in it.


I don't know how the game decides what unit to put on top. You can quickly see if there is a combat unit in a stack by glancing at the first number which is the combat value. If it's not a 0 then there is at least one combat unit in the stack.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:02:22 PM)

OK, that makes sense. It's probably one of the things that will take some getting used to.

By the way, as to how your advance compares to the historical advance: AGN's about where it was in early September 1941 in real life. AGC's punch to Moscow is of course further than the Germans got in real life, the rest of your progress seems to be roughly on par with history. The northern tip of AGS, due to the early capture of Kiev, is slightly ahead of history, although by next turn the Germans were about 100 kilometres east of Kiev. The central and southern parts of AGS are the only ones seriously lagging behind currently (between 100 and 200 kilometres along most of the front), although you captured Odesse 1.5 months early. The advance by AGS wasn't critical to the 1941 operations and caused a huge overextension, so perhaps it's even a good thing that you're lagging behind in that area.



SGHunt -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:10:33 PM)

IMO, what you have just done is exactly what Guderian was advocating - ignore the South and go for Moscow before anyone could catch their breath - which advice Hitler over-ruled and sent him to complete the (also incredible) Kiev encirlement.

Destruction of the enemy in the field was less important than destroying the means and the will of the enemy to continue to fight(after Clausewitz, I think - the 'politics by other means' stuff?)

Whatever, it's pretty impressive, even if the Russians manage to cut off or attack the advance units over the next couple of turns.

In terms of the AI (and I know it's in Alpha!), it should have scraped up everything it had and put it in the way of your advance to Moscow, and had at least one good division dug in and fortified to the max in each city hex as well. Surely the Russian civilians in Moscow had dug big anti-tank ditches by now? Is there no fixed garrison for the major cities (Leningrad, Kiev, Rostov, Sevastopol and maybe other cities as well)? These could represent the fixed emplacements and the militias, plus a few elite troops, NKVD etc. Worth cnsidering at least for when the Russian player is the AI?

It seems to me that the AI has been way too interested in maintaining a cohesive front line, including in the 'minor' sectors between AGC and AGN, even when the schwerpunkt has a dagger to its throat and is within reach of Moscow. There are way too many units to the South West of Rzhev - when was it going to withdraw these divisions? (Interesting to note that it has done just that at Kiev.)

It will be fascinating to see what happens when the Siberians arrive (when was the pact made with the Japanese?), not to mention the mud and the snow. Also to see what difference the Victory Conditions will make to Russian deployment once the capital begins to be threatened (ie a couple of weeks earlier than this in the current campaign).

Hope this isn't too long a ramble - I'm just very excitied by 'developments'.

Thanks for sharing
Stuart



Sentinel Six -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:30:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

The Finns have moved about as far as they can go for now (turn 12) so I'll only show this area again if something interesting happens.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/BarbarossaAARFinlandturn12.jpg[/image]



Elmo,

Can German units based in Finnish territory attack across the Finnish No Attack Line?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:33:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sentinel Six

Elmo,

Can German units based in Finnish territory attack across the Finnish No Attack Line?


The German unit can't cross the Finn-Soviet border. Not sure if that is a bug. Will have to RTFM.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:38:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

...Surely the Russian civilians in Moscow had dug big anti-tank ditches by now? Is there no fixed garrison for the major cities (Leningrad, Kiev, Rostov, Sevastopol and maybe other cities as well)? ...Worth cnsidering at least for when the Russian player is the AI?

...

Thanks for sharing
Stuart


Moscow has a level 3 fortification. I don't recall if there are forts in N. Moscow or W. Moscow. There are no fixed garrisons but that is one option being considered.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:39:13 PM)

quote:

The German unit can't cross the Finn-Soviet border. Not sure if that is a bug. Will have to RTFM.


It's already across the post-Winter War Finn-Soviet border according to the screenshot (1 hex east of the yellow line), and the no attack line seems to be the pre-Winter War Finn-Soviet border.



SGHunt -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 12:55:13 PM)

...and how are the panzers holding up?     One big problem was the degree of mechanical failure by this stage, with the supply sources, fixed workshops etc being so far away, and the number of miles without service being off the scale for normal 'Western' style operations.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:18:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It's already across the post-Winter War Finn-Soviet border according to the screenshot (1 hex east of the yellow line), and the no attack line seems to be the pre-Winter War Finn-Soviet border.


That's what I thought but it might be a map anomaly where that hex is still on the Finnish side. The border takes a very slight jog to the east there from looking at the map.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 1:26:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

...and how are the panzers holding up?     One big problem was the degree of mechanical failure by this stage, with the supply sources, fixed workshops etc being so far away, and the number of miles without service being off the scale for normal 'Western' style operations.


Here is a shot of 3rd Pz Div just outside Moscow. As you can see all the Lt Tanks are out of service and about half the Med Tanks when compared to the starting TOE.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/3rdPzDiv.jpg[/image]



Balou -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 2:14:04 PM)

elmo,
quote:

The 17th Pz Div has entered W. Moscow and 3rd Pz Div and 10th Mot Div are at the gates of Moscow as well..... They are badly overextended and will be short of supply next turn....

I'd like to see how bad it is from the point of view of RR supply. Can you give us a map with the rail hexes near Moscow already converted and under conversion ? Thanks.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/1/2010 2:16:58 PM)

quote:

That's what I thought but it might be a map anomaly where that hex is still on the Finnish side. The border takes a very slight jog to the east there from looking at the map.


I'd guess it must be a bug. The division advanced through Tolvojärvi, Agläjarvi and Suojärvi, moved past the Sjamosero lake and reached the Svir, so aside from that you're using the division to advance in a different location than its historical advance, I don't see a historical reason why the division should not be able to cross the border.



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