RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (Full Version)

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PyleDriver -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 12:12:49 PM)

Damn I love this game...And were only Alpha...We have alot of smart guys join the bunch...Lee "Elmo" just got in say 6 months ago he loves it, as we all doooooo...This game is to much fun, I've been testing for 21 months, and it was ugly then...lol...



Northern Star -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 12:28:04 PM)

I've been testing since December 2008 and I love this game too...



Great_Ajax -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 2:18:19 PM)

Actually, Lee got here in December and we played a couple of Typhoon games PBEM.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Damn I love this game...And were only Alpha...We have alot of smart guys join the bunch...Lee "Elmo" just got in say 6 months ago he loves it, as we all doooooo...This game is to much fun, I've been testing for 21 months, and it was ugly then...lol...




Sabre21 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 3:20:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Actually, Lee got here in December and we played a couple of Typhoon games PBEM.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Damn I love this game...And were only Alpha...We have alot of smart guys join the bunch...Lee "Elmo" just got in say 6 months ago he loves it, as we all doooooo...This game is to much fun, I've been testing for 21 months, and it was ugly then...lol...



Yea..I remember your first few pbem's too Trey <snicker> [:'(]



Ron -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 3:54:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Well if a Corps HQ is 90 miles away from it parent Army HQ one would imagine it would be less effective relative to a Corps HQ 50 miles distant. Likewise one would imagine a Division would benefit being 20 miles away from a Corps headquarters rather than say 60 miles.



Apparently you've never been exposed to any bureaucratic organization, military or otherwise, where contrary to perceived logic, the efficiency of any group decreases at an exponential rate the closer it gets to higher command. [:)]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 4:11:49 PM)

Losses and OOB through turn 28.  Will post the rest of the bad news later after assessing the damage and getting my daughter from pre-school.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AAROOBturn28.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn28groundlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn28airlosses.jpg[/image]



Sabre21 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 4:12:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Well if a Corps HQ is 90 miles away from it parent Army HQ one would imagine it would be less effective relative to a Corps HQ 50 miles distant. Likewise one would imagine a Division would benefit being 20 miles away from a Corps headquarters rather than say 60 miles.



Apparently you've never been exposed to any bureaucratic organization, military or otherwise, where contrary to perceived logic, the efficiency of any group decreases at an exponential rate the closer it gets to higher command. [:)]


Very well said and oh how true...lol.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 5:27:23 PM)

Good times, Andy. Everything I learned in this game, I learned from you ;) LOL. My favorite time was when I broke your line at Velikye Luki. That was funny!

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Actually, Lee got here in December and we played a couple of Typhoon games PBEM.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Damn I love this game...And were only Alpha...We have alot of smart guys join the bunch...Lee "Elmo" just got in say 6 months ago he loves it, as we all doooooo...This game is to much fun, I've been testing for 21 months, and it was ugly then...lol...



Yea..I remember your first few pbem's too Trey <snicker> [:'(]




PyleDriver -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 5:47:07 PM)

Well I thought lee was here 4 months, but hell, throw him a couple of months...lol...Btw Andy the cold really doesnt bother me...Just like the warm better...



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 6:34:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Apparently you've never been exposed to any bureaucratic organization, military or otherwise, where contrary to perceived logic, the efficiency of any group decreases at an exponential rate the closer it gets to higher command. [:)]


I checked on this and just want to clarify the command range situation. There is no HQ to HQ range. All combat units and airbases must be within 5 of their parent HQ for supplies and for getting support units assisting in combat. HQ's do not need to be within 5. This is confirmed with Gary. The ranges:

5 corps
15 Army
45 Army group

are the range that the unit's higher HQ must be within to provide excess support elements from that HQ to assist if there is a shortage of support elements in the unit. As long as they are within range, the excess support flows down the chain of command to the combat units that may need them.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 7:06:10 PM)

12/25/41 (turn 28)  Merry Christmas!   [:'(]   Two divisions from AGN's 4th Pz Grp and one from 18th Army held Pushkin against the Soviet onslaught.  Other parts of the line continue to crumble.  We'll try to straighten the line as best we can while still holding Pushkin.  The damn partisan you can see at the far west edge of the screen is raising hell with our only supply line and we're going to have to send someone to get rid of them at a time when I need every available unit on the front line.  There is a security unit in Tallinn but it is probably too far away to get there this coming turn as the weather is blizzard again.  [:(]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGNturn28.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 7:10:44 PM)

12/25/41 (turn 28)  The southern part of AGN's line is "held" by 16th Army but they are not doing much better.  Holes are appearing along their line and another advance to the rear will be needed to straighten their line.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGN2turn28.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 7:19:38 PM)

12/25/41 (turn 28)  The situation for most of AGC is even worse than AGN.  Soviet forces are within 20 miles of Smolensk.  2nd Pz Div along with two infantry regiments are isolated north of Smolensk and relief will not be possible with another turn of blizzard weather.  A few other units are close to being isolated and probably can't pull back far enough to avoid that fate next turn.  We will immediately evacuate the bulge as much as the weather will allow.  Vyazma will be abandoned but we'll try to hold Smolensk if possible. To the south the 4th Army is doing a better job holding their lines but they can provide no help to 2nd and 3rd Pz Grps.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGCturn28.jpg[/image]



The SNAFU -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 7:26:59 PM)

Im wondering if there is an option to show stacks piled straight up one unit directly on top of the other instead of the sort of spread out view we see in the screenshots. That view rather reminds me of my old boardgames where a slight bump of the board would partially collapse my stacks all across the battlefield lol.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 7:28:53 PM)

12/25/41 (turn 28)  The inability of AGS forces to hold the line south of Kiev is discouraging.  We will not abandon the city in any case but it's not looking good for holding it either if we can't hold the flanks.  The Rumanians continue to hold their sector.  Wish we had more of those fine troops to stiffen the resolve of the Germans...

German envoys are trying to approach Stalin through third parties to negotiate a peace agreement but he is having no part of it.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGSturn28.jpg[/image]



Zort -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 9:48:10 PM)

It looks like your fort units have not done as well as expected. Wonder if the soviet losses will be so bad that they will falter in 42?



wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 9:59:37 PM)

AGC's position is looking really bad. I hope the weather lets you pull your units out of the bulge otherwise things look pretty bleak.



Smirfy -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 9:59:40 PM)

quote:

Apparently you've never been exposed to any bureaucratic organization, military or otherwise, where contrary to perceived logic, the efficiency of any group decreases at an exponential rate the closer it gets to higher command.


True [:D] One of the things that always struck me about the Russian Front was how situations would need a Headquarters to become available. If Army Group range is 45 hexes or 450 miles would Army group A and B have a point? Would we need Army Group Don being formed if we meet with disaster or would we just reattach to some other headquarters that is deemed in range. Would we see emergencies that would warrant Army Detachment Hollidt being formed. Impressed with all I have seen so far just wondering how an important aspect of war in the Eastern Front is handled.



Smirfy -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 10:05:57 PM)


Can Goering come to the rescue and keep 2nd Panzer in supply until such times as you can relieve it?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 10:10:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

It looks like your fort units have not done as well as expected. Wonder if the soviet losses will be so bad that they will falter in 42?


The fortified zone units were disappointing, as Joel predicted. I wonder if we'll still have an army at all in '42?



wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 10:11:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Can Goering come to the rescue and keep 2nd Panzer in supply until such times as you can relieve it?


I would hate to trust my fate to Fat Herman.
[:D]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 10:11:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Can Goering come to the rescue and keep 2nd Panzer in supply until such times as you can relieve it?


I can try to resupply them by air but it's questionable in blizzard conditions if the aircraft will even fly.



wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 10:15:12 PM)

Do the Axis units that are pocketed have more backbone than their Russian equivalents? One area of the game that concerns me is how easily pockets can be mopped up. Historically the Axis units formed many large pockets on the Eastern Front which managed to hold out for many weeks. Most pockets that i have seen formed in the game so far are eliminated in one or two turns maximum.



Joel Billings -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 11:08:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

Apparently you've never been exposed to any bureaucratic organization, military or otherwise, where contrary to perceived logic, the efficiency of any group decreases at an exponential rate the closer it gets to higher command.


True [:D] One of the things that always struck me about the Russian Front was how situations would need a Headquarters to become available. If Army Group range is 45 hexes or 450 miles would Army group A and B have a point? Would we need Army Group Don being formed if we meet with disaster or would we just reattach to some other headquarters that is deemed in range. Would we see emergencies that would warrant Army Detachment Hollidt being formed. Impressed with all I have seen so far just wondering how an important aspect of war in the Eastern Front is handled.


There are command limits as to how many units a HQ can control before they suffer penalties. That is another reason to have more HQ's.





Sabre21 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/18/2010 11:37:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Do the Axis units that are pocketed have more backbone than their Russian equivalents? One area of the game that concerns me is how easily pockets can be mopped up. Historically the Axis units formed many large pockets on the Eastern Front which managed to hold out for many weeks. Most pockets that i have seen formed in the game so far are eliminated in one or two turns maximum.


It depends on morale and a host of other factors...like the commander's ratings. Also it depends on how much force is brought to bear on those isolated units. When I play Germans I try and eliminate pockets as quickly as possible to free up the infantry, so I use what force is necessary to do this. The Soviet 41 pockets are pretty easy to clear out but there are some that can hang on for several turns, like when a Lvov pocket is created by linking up with the Rumanians. There can be a good number of units trapped and it takes time to eliminate them all. Over time, units will begin to surrender too even withought being attacked.

When I play the Soviets, in 1941 it takes a good number of units to eliminate even a single German division that becomes surrounded and isolated. I recall during a blizzard turn I had a pair of German divisions trapped and it took a dozen Soviet divisions a couple tries to force them to surrender. So you can still clear pockets in a single turn if you want to commit the resources to do it.



Zort -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:23:17 AM)

Forgot if this was asked/answered before but are aircraft rotated out for the winter like they were historically and back in spring for the Axis?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:32:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Forgot if this was asked/answered before but are aircraft rotated out for the winter like they were historically and back in spring for the Axis?


I do see air units being withdrawn on various turns. Don't know if they rotate back in or are sent elsewhere permanently.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:37:33 PM)

1/1/42 (turn 29) Happy New Year!  Losses through turn 29.  Note the addition of a button to select a list of destroyed units too.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AAROOBturn29.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn29groundlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn29airlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn29destroyedunits.jpg[/image]





elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:46:54 PM)

1/1/42 (turn 29)  Note that I have turned off Fog of War for these final shots of the front.  4th Pz Grp forces held Pushkin for another week against a couple of determined assaults by Soviet forces.  How much longer they could hold is questionable as their are no reinforcements to relieve them.  The rest of the line was pushed back in several places and the rout could be on next turn as it will again be blizzard.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGNturn29.jpg[/image]




elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:54:53 PM)

1/1/42 (turn 29)  AGC has been decimated and the bulge is gone.  Twenty divisions are surrounded (highlighted in red) and they will be destroyed next turn for certain due to another week of blizzard conditions.  In theory they will be rebuilt and we could fight on but that will have to wait for another AAR.  A lot of improvements have been made to the 41 campaign since this AAR started and continuing it further at this point would yield minimal value for test purposes.  Two lesson learned for future games are never to create that kind of bulge again and to pocket more Soviets in the early going whenever possible.  And don't play the AI on Challenging.  [:'(]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGCturn29.jpg[/image]





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