RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (Full Version)

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elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:58:14 PM)

1/1/42 (turn 29)  More of the same for AGS with our forces slowly being pushed back.  At least we still hold Kiev!

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGSturn29.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 4:59:16 PM)

It was a lot of fun presenting the game in this AAR and I know many of you enjoyed it as much as I did.  Stay tuned for more AAR's as we move the game along toward completion.



Zovs -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 5:13:02 PM)

Lee challenging is where its at. Have you tried hard yet...[:D]



wmcalpine -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 5:25:14 PM)

Lee,

The screenshot of AGC with FOW turned off was scary. A veritable sea of Soviet troops. Were many of those brigades or divisions?

Thank you for the very entertaining AAR.

Bill



The SNAFU -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 6:09:55 PM)

Elmo,

Thanks for sharing this AAR and for the time and effort it took to do it. It must have been hard invading the Soviet Union when the rules of war were changed on you several times during the operation and you were asked to go back in time (no small feat indeed [:)])

In any event, your AAR has provided us with a glimpse of what this game is and what it can be once it's complete.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 6:55:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wmcalpine

Lee,

The screenshot of AGC with FOW turned off was scary. A veritable sea of Soviet troops. Were many of those brigades or divisions?

Thank you for the very entertaining AAR.

Bill



A lot of those were brigades, probably too many. We're looking into that. Glad you liked the AAR.



pejsek -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 7:34:50 PM)

Thank you for this AAR. It was very interesting reading. I am looking forward to this game.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 7:43:31 PM)

Thanks for the AAR elmo, I'm looking forward to the next one.

It does seem the AI might take defending cities a bit too seriously, as there are plenty of units near or in Moscow, whilst the danger of a German breakthrough was pretty minimal. Of course, it's possible they arrived by rail, but there are other places where there are AI units in the rear in some weird locations.



Naughteous Maximus -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 8:13:45 PM)

Someone looks like they will be facing the "firing squad" real soon.[:D]



critter -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 9:20:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

It looks like your fort units have not done as well as expected. Wonder if the soviet losses will be so bad that they will falter in 42?


The fortified zone units were disappointing, as Joel predicted. I wonder if we'll still have an army at all in '42?

Thanks for the AAR
Elmo whats your take on the fortfied zones? Worthless? What do you think their next evolution will be? Aren't they supposed to represent heg hogs?
As per ComradeP Q, what did the soviet rear area look like? Was the AI shipping its units to the front?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 9:41:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

Thanks for the AAR
Elmo whats your take on the fortfied zones? Worthless? What do you think their next evolution will be? Aren't they supposed to represent heg hogs?
As per ComradeP Q, what did the soviet rear area look like? Was the AI shipping its units to the front?


The fortified regions are really special static combat units designed to help with fortification construction, supplement line units while building defenses, and allow the allocation of more support units (directly attached) for defense. They are not worthless, it's just that I'm not sure how to use them effectively yet.

The vast majority of Soviet units were near the front lines. There were a few armies forming in the rear areas but they had pretty much all their forces within 100-200 miles of the front line.



freeboy -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 9:48:41 PM)

great aar, definately a a tempting taste of the main course yet to come



PyleDriver -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 10:06:00 PM)

In 41 the things to remember are...Be very agressive in good weather, and chew up as many troops as you can. When mud hits, shorten the lines and dig in. Then pray...lol...I focus on Leningrad in 41, the Finns are joined and the Baltic sea is now yours. In 42 Moscow, and once it falls so goes the house of cards...Why Hitler called off the attack on Leningrad in 41 I'll never know...



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 10:23:07 PM)

quote:

Aren't they supposed to represent heg hogs?


Hedgehogs are defensive formations that are strong in the sense that all sides are protected by an equal amount of force, but when that line is broken at one point, you're in trouble. It's a nice defensive strategy when you're surrounded, but it has many disadvantages.

quote:

The fortified regions are really special static combat units designed to help with fortification construction, supplement line units while building defenses, and allow the allocation of more support units (directly attached) for defense. They are not worthless, it's just that I'm not sure how to use them effectively yet.


As Joel posted earlier:
quote:

Just to be clear, a fortified zone is not a fort. It is a unit, that contains around 2000k, of which 270 are labor. The rest are about 2 companies of men and support troops. That's when they are up to full strength. They will help increase the fortification level of the hex (because like all troops they will dig), but not by a bunch. Units adjacent to the enemy dig less than those in the rear (since they can't spend all their time digging but have to worry about the enemy).


I guess if you give them time, and establish them some distance away from the front, the labourers will do a pretty good job of creating defensives. I think the key word is "time". In your case their effectiveness was limited as there was little time and you created so many of them that some units might not have been up to strength to begin with.

I seem to recall it was discussed earlier, but can't recall the specifics: what happens to forts over time? Let's say you establish some forts with fortified region/zone units, and disband those units, but place a regular up-to-strength infantry unit in the hex. Will that unit be enough to keep the forts up to strength or do they decrease in size over time until a construction battalion is in the hex?



Smirfy -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/19/2010 10:41:45 PM)

quote:

Why Hitler called off the attack on Leningrad in 41 I'll never know...


In general staff circles it was said he found an old memorandum of Lundendorff's which dwelt on the difficulty of provisioning large cities. Personally I believe the reasons that drew him to Stalingrad in 42 repelled him at Leningrad in 41. And great AAR by the way Elmo.



zbig -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 12:19:09 AM)

Thank you for the AAR, it was fun to watch. In the immortal words of General "Buck" Turgidson:

"Mr. President, if I may speak freely, the Russkie talks big, but frankly, we think he's short of know how. I mean, you just can't expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys. And that's not meant as an insult, Mr. Ambassador, I mean, you take your average Russkie, we all know how much guts he's got. Hell, lookit look at all them them Nazis killed off and they still wouldn't quit."

I do not know if that is relevant but I always wanted to use that quote.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 12:46:53 AM)

A classic movie.  [&o]



Lokos -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 4:00:30 AM)

'Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!'



wmcalpine -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 4:58:39 AM)

One of my favorites

"If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!"

What a great movie





oldman45 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 6:07:25 AM)

Thanks for putting the AAR together and taking the time to share it with us.



Captain B -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 6:07:40 AM)

Elmo aka Lee,

Well done indeed! So, if Napoleon came out with only a handful, I think you making it out with a heck of a lot more means you might be a better general than little nappy[:'(]. But I am afraid the Gestapo will find that you shot yourself at some point for your failure to win a complete and total victory. I still say do the Scooby Doo ending and go back to your saved game and burn Moscow to the ground.

A couple of items...are you going to send the designers some notes with your observations? it would be interesting to see them as part of this AAR. Looks like the forts didn't do well enough and it appears to me that the soviets appeared to have way too much coordination in their counterattack during the blizzard and during their whole defesne. In 1941 the soviet command structure was poor and improved steadily throughout the war (mostly due to the school of hard knocks in 1941). Also, did the blizzard affect the soviet at all? Having been on an ARTEP during a blizzard in Germany (in modern tanks mind you), you cannot operate at any level of efficiency and coordination. May need to be an increase in the modifier for the soviets movement as well during blizzard? Don't know, guess you will find out in your next round!

Viel Gluck!




PyleDriver -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 6:21:47 AM)

Well Lee has done a great job showing the game. And why even at alpha testing now, you will be tested at this game after you get it. Granted he made mistakes, as we all do, and they did in the war... Ah, but thats we replay the game, we love to think we could do better...



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 10:57:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain B

Elmo aka Lee,

...

A couple of items...are you going to send the designers some notes with your observations? ... Also, did the blizzard affect the soviet at all? Having been on an ARTEP during a blizzard in Germany (in modern tanks mind you), you cannot operate at any level of efficiency and coordination. May need to be an increase in the modifier for the soviets movement as well during blizzard? Don't know, guess you will find out in your next round!

Viel Gluck!




Yes I have been discussing the AAR with the team along the way and Joel was following it. The Soviets were well prepared for winter and don't suffer any negative effects other than the standard movement penalties for bad weather. As with just about everything in alpha this could be adjusted after looking at test results.

Glad you liked the AAR.



Banzan -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 11:48:34 AM)

Very nice AAR (as i already said before), but nobody seems to ask the really important question:

When do you start the next one ? :D



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 12:49:05 PM)

I'll be bug hunting for a while so maybe one of the other testers will get one going eventually.  And we'll probably have a PBEM style AAR between two players once that gets implemented.



SGHunt -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 2:33:46 PM)

OK - so I was wrong about AGC not being destroyed!   My apologies to those with greater experience who predicted that the Bear would bite your head off.

This has been great fun - and may thanks.   I don't know what I'll do to distract myself from working now!   It's also been really interesting and has me hungry for more - both more testing insights and for the thing itself.   I don't think I'll be able resist micro managing those support units.

I'm still intrigued to know about digging in - not so much the fortified regions, which I think someone said should ideally be set up behind the front line as a switch line.   It's the infantry flanks of AGC that were only at level 1 entrenchment when the big bad thing started, despite being static for several weeks.   Do you need to order them to dig in or does it happen naturally, as it were?   And why no gradual increase in level?    Static units would naturally move from fox holes,to simple trenches, to more elaborate trench systems with wooden bunkers and wire, with mines etc without a great deal of extra resource from HQ, wouldn't they?   And the troops would 'find' stuff to keep them warm, improvise stoves in the bunkers and shelters etc and would fight like hell to stop being driven into the howling wastes....Many tactical battles were fought for the posession of shelter,,with death to the losers.  

It seemed to me that your line regiments got kicked out of their 'prepared' positions too easily.     (No problem if they were only in the rudimentary defence positions just off the march).   What do you think?

Thanks again
Stuart



wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 2:49:29 PM)

Thanks for a great AAR Lee. It has provided us all with a really good insight into the game mechanics etc.

[:)]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 3:49:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

...Do you need to order them to dig in or does it happen naturally, as it were?   And why no gradual increase in level?    ...What do you think?

Thanks again
Stuart



Fortifications do increase gradually over time and you don't order units to dig in. There are many factors involved for example: unit experience and fatigue, any available engineers, proximity of the enemy (being adjacent really slows the process), the current fort level of the hex (as it goes up it takes longer to build the next level), availability of city labor, terrain (max level is 3 in swamp). There are probably other factors but hopefully that gives you an idea of what is involved.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 4:51:49 PM)

The Soviets did seem to be quite strong suddenly in winter, even though the average Rifle division still only had an attack strength of 2 according to the screenshots. German defensive strength didn't really seem to have much of an impact.

Your reserve, like that Panzer division in Smolensk, also didn't seem to do anything at all, whilst the Soviets were not really troubled by the winter.

The effectiveness of Rifle formations might be too high in the blizzard. Even if they had adequate winter gear (which is a big if considering the state Soviet logistics were in at the end of 1941, and considering that in the Winter War frostbite casualties were fairly serious), their tactical doctrine (or lack thereof I should say) would still quickly nullify an relative increase in strength due to having that winter equipment. The Germans might be freezing, but they still have a solid operational and tactical doctrine. The Soviets, even though not freezing, wouldn't suddenly become expert tacticians. For example, the Soviet way of removing Germans from a village was to send groups of men out to literally stamp a path into the snow towards the German-held village (predictably, casualties were horrible in those groups), human-waving to reach the village and then cleaning the village house by house.

Considering that most of elmo's formations were in a much better shape than their historical counterparts if the casualty figures are an indication, Soviet effectiveness against almost full strength German formations might be too high currently.



Wild -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/20/2010 6:37:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The Soviets did seem to be quite strong suddenly in winter, even though the average Rifle division still only had an attack strength of 2 according to the screenshots. German defensive strength didn't really seem to have much of an impact.

Your reserve, like that Panzer division in Smolensk, also didn't seem to do anything at all, whilst the Soviets were not really troubled by the winter.

The effectiveness of Rifle formations might be too high in the blizzard. Even if they had adequate winter gear (which is a big if considering the state Soviet logistics were in at the end of 1941, and considering that in the Winter War frostbite casualties were fairly serious), their tactical doctrine (or lack thereof I should say) would still quickly nullify an relative increase in strength due to having that winter equipment. The Germans might be freezing, but they still have a solid operational and tactical doctrine. The Soviets, even though not freezing, wouldn't suddenly become expert tacticians. For example, the Soviet way of removing Germans from a village was to send groups of men out to literally stamp a path into the snow towards the German-held village (predictably, casualties were horrible in those groups), human-waving to reach the village and then cleaning the village house by house.

Considering that most of elmo's formations were in a much better shape than their historical counterparts if the casualty figures are an indication, Soviet effectiveness against almost full strength German formations might be too high currently.


He was playing on the challenging difficulty level, not historical. It is hard to make too many assumptions from this.



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