Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (Full Version)

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malkuth74 -> Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 7:17:23 PM)

Sorry I really do enjoy this game other then wars. when it comes to wars the game is just broken. When your empire gets so big you have no choice but to have you AI control this aspect for you your fleets your ships. I mean 400 ships is a lot to micromanage.

The problem is that you Attack AI does not take fuel into consideration. So when it launches an attack and ask you is it ok and you say yes. The distances are so far apart that by the time they get too the target they are out of gas and helpless.

To remedy this either you need to rework the Fuel situation, by not having it run out so quick. Its a nice idea and all to have fuel. But I think the whole process is killing every AI in the game not just yours.

And if you set up fuel depos with the Supply ship, it just stays for awhile and then leaves... You guessed it fuel issues. Why does a Fuel ship that is making fuel need to leave to refuel? It has all the fuel it wants!

The game is huge in scope and we need lots of the Auto stuff just to run it. But the fuel system in general breaks the game totally. With large distances involved its a huge issue. And you can play a game and you will see that nothing happens in wars because of the fuel issues. You can have empires at war with each other for 40 years and they never gain much ground against each other. Then when you finally go to war its so confusing and messed up that its impossible to fight one.

And without the ability to have wars, the game becomes very dull. Its fun and all to build up your empire. But in the end you get stuck being the largest baddass in the galaxy. But because you can't fight a war correctly you can't do anything.

Try another game and see what happens. But this is my 4th game and they always end the same. Don't want to go to war because I can't fight them because we always run out of fuel. All the time.

Another problem is if you do manage you fleets and fuel them up and have them sit still. They still use fuel. The problem is by the time you need them they are totally out of fuel again. They should not use fuel when they are sitting idle, none. And it does not matter if its you controlling the fleet or the AI. The AI controlled fleets run out too.

Sword of the stars did the fuel situation right. You need fuel for ships, but the fuelers travel with your fleet. And everytime they go to a colony they refuel automatically. And when they sit around the colony they don't use fuel.

If you want a fuel system I suggest maybe thinking of using that system instead or similar. It works and it does not bog the player down with fuel issues like it is now in this game.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 7:28:00 PM)

The game needs an auto refuel option for fleet and ships you control.l also think when you set ships to patrol your planets and stations it should auto refuel on the fly.



Tormodino -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 7:36:53 PM)

Yeah. This is an essential issue.
Never knowing if your fleets are fueled or not ruins plans and breaks some of the immersion that comes with the AI control.



lordxorn -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 7:39:29 PM)

I totally agree. The Auto-Fuel idea and when you have a fleet selected, in the selection screen on the bottom left a refuel fleet option should be there, and refit.

Although Malkuth Ihave not had a problem with a resupply ship refueling itself once deployed on a "Gas Giant".
The problem I had was that it would un-deploy itself for no reason.




bssybeep -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 8:24:18 PM)

Is there an option to turn off fuel usage? This seems like a major pita to gameplay. You would think in the far future starships would use renewable power sources instead of having to pull into the nearest interstellar Shell station every few million miles.[:D]



Jim D Burns -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 8:24:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn
I totally agree. The Auto-Fuel idea and when you have a fleet selected, in the selection screen on the bottom left a refuel fleet option should be there, and refit.



Agreed, but add a check box so you can order your ships to not refuel in another empire's territory. Nothing worse than sending a fleet off to refuel closest only to find it ruining diplomatic ties you've painstakingly inched up over the years all because you forgot to check the system it went to when you made the order.

Jim





PDiFolco -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 8:40:50 PM)

I agree refuelling is problematic.. Adding a resupply ship helps as long asit is full, but then the issue comes back...
What I'd suggest is that Resupply ship could be given mission to resupply fleet/ship X, thus allowing "in flight refuelling". The AI could manage this and send the RS ships to the needing fleet, then go back to deploy to refuel itself. The whole idea of going back to bases to refuel is screwy.
Oh, an idea just struck me : is it possible to just add fuel-mining modules to ships so they can refuel themselves ? [:'(]



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 8:43:49 PM)

Are you actually deploying resupply ships at a gas worlds? They are not ment to be in fleets or flying around.



HsojVvad -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 8:47:22 PM)

Yes the refueling can break the game, but let me get this right. You can't fight a war because you run out of gas? So why don't you make fuel depots or gas stations when you fight the war? By this, you don't see Americans coming back to the USA to refuel, they have gas stations close by. So if you want to make a war, why aren't you basing your fleet? There are plenty of stars around so make gassing stations or gas bases what ever they are called so your fleet can refuel there.

I can see if the AI dosn't use this, but you as a humans should be doing this. So I don't really see what you are talking about. You have to plan ahead, make fueling stations on the way. I thought that was part of the strategy in gaming.

Also, I find it funny people complaining about too many ships and planets to mangage. First there isn't enough planets or stars, now we can have up to 1000 of stars and way more planets and now there is too much automation? You can't have both. You either have a few planets that a normal perosn can handle without going crazy or you have 1000s with automation.



malkuth74 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:02:29 PM)

I do deploy the resupply ships davor. The problem is that when you use Auto AI for invasion they don't use them at all. They will attack a enemy planet half way across the universe and by the time they get there they are out of gas and helpless.

Also when you do lay down a resupply ship it should stay and do its job (auto off) but it does not stay it undeploys and runs out of gas. Which makes them useless.

Ships should not use fuel when they are IDLE. That problem by itself breaks the game in its own right. Add in the AI sending ships to places they should not go really break the war aspect.

When you get a large empire with 500 ships or so it becomes impossible to deal with the fuel issue.



HsojVvad -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:04:39 PM)

Ah, so your plobem is not fuel in general but the AI not refueling the ships. I get it. So I hope that CF will work on the AI for this, since alot of people are complaining about automated ships not refueling when needed.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:09:43 PM)

Decreasing fuel consumption for ships x8 is most likely needed,so the game flow is not ruined by so much micromanaging.



OberonDark -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:11:22 PM)

The problem isn't so much the mechanics as it is the way the AI does things, such as actually setting up/using refueling stations properly. But I agree, fuel consumption needs to go down a bit.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:43:30 PM)

Hm, I've seen wars working very well, with multiple systems changing hands and decisive outcomes galore. I've also seem both AI controlled and manually controlled fleets launching strikes with plenty of fuel and resupply ships setup in strategic places. I accept that there is an issue in some of the interactions here, but I have not seen it as being as serious as the original poster described. What experience are the rest of you having so far?



Andy Mac -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:50:02 PM)

I find it doable but a pain so not as bad as the original poster.

You cannot rely on the AI for fleet level actions but then I dont think you should.

So for me its ok but the lack of fuel is a pain



Willburn -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:51:31 PM)

I find it a big problem. First if I create a fleet usually its disbanded after a while, and if I manage to send it somewhere most of the fleet is usually out of fuel before it reaches the intended pirates it will counter.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 9:55:20 PM)

If you have manual control over the fleet, it should not be disbanded, that should only happen if the fleet formation is automated as well.

Are you using resupply ships with your fleets? I'm able to launch some pretty deep strikes without a problem when using resupply. One thing about DW though is that it is supposed to be hard to send your fleet across the galaxy and support it. It's easy to defend your own area, harder to plan and support an attack elsewhere.



malkuth74 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:02:05 PM)

I have 4 games in so far and other then a few close worlds changing hands (IE they are right next to each other so fuel is not so much of an issue) I have not seen 1 empire lose yet. Usually they battle over the same worlds over and over it seems.

Like I said going to try another game but I don't see the fuel issue being any different. And this was only a 400 star game. With 5 empires.

Maybe thats the problem, I don't have enough empires going so we all get way to big a bloated. I will try a map with a lot more empires and see what happens.

So are you saying we should have resupply ships in the actual fleet? I was under the impression that they only work when deployed in a Gas cloud with the + mark. What good is having them in the fleet if they can't deploy? Do they have some sort of refuel option inside them that maybe im missing?

Also if this is the case, then the AI does not build them into your fleets or theirs.



Gertjan -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:14:15 PM)

I like the concept. But I guess I still need to learn how to use the resupply ships properly. I will give it another try before complaining here.



PDiFolco -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:17:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malkuth74

I have 4 games in so far and other then a few close worlds changing hands (IE they are right next to each other so fuel is not so much of an issue) I have not seen 1 empire lose yet. Usually they battle over the same worlds over and over it seems.

Like I said going to try another game but I don't see the fuel issue being any different. And this was only a 400 star game. With 5 empires.

Maybe thats the problem, I don't have enough empires going so we all get way to big a bloated. I will try a map with a lot more empires and see what happens.

So are you saying we should have resupply ships in the actual fleet? I was under the impression that they only work when deployed in a Gas cloud with the + mark. What good is having them in the fleet if they can't deploy? Do they have some sort of refuel option inside them that maybe im missing?

Also if this is the case, then the AI does not build them into your fleets or theirs.

I started deploying a RS ship at a gas giant, but then I couldn't get any ship to resupply at this ship... Thus I put the RS ship into the fleet and *it seemed to me* that it shared its fuel with the other ships, extending their range. Maybe I misunderstood how it's supposed to work..



Flaviusx -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:21:37 PM)

Next game I think I'm going to redesign my ships so they have longer legs and greater fuel capacity. The default designs just don't feel like they've got enough range, except on explorers.




ASHBERY76 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:25:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
I started deploying a RS ship at a gas giant, but then I couldn't get any ship to resupply at this ship... Thus I put the RS ship into the fleet and *it seemed to me* that it shared its fuel with the other ships, extending their range. Maybe I misunderstood how it's supposed to work..


No.The resupply ship is really just a base that sits on gas giants or gas clouds so your fleets can attack long range targets...You cannot deploy them on frozen gas giants bare in mind,which is not mentioned on the pedia.



Nemo84 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: malkuth74

Like I said going to try another game but I don't see the fuel issue being any different. And this was only a 400 star game. With 5 empires.

Maybe thats the problem, I don't have enough empires going so we all get way to big a bloated. I will try a map with a lot more empires and see what happens.


One thing I did notice is that the usual learning approach of smallest galaxy with only one or two opponents is not a good idea in this game. The game mechanics work so much better when the galaxy is more crowded.

quote:


So are you saying we should have resupply ships in the actual fleet? I was under the impression that they only work when deployed in a Gas cloud with the + mark. What good is having them in the fleet if they can't deploy? Do they have some sort of refuel option inside them that maybe im missing?

Also if this is the case, then the AI does not build them into your fleets or theirs.


I don't think that's what he means. I've noticed habitable systems are rather rare in this game. At least 2/3 of the systems have a couple of mining stations at most. So that is lots of empty space to hide supply ships in. I haven't played one single game long enough to do more than some basic experiments, but this is how I think a long-range deep strike op works:

You scan the area around your intended target systems for gas-rich systems either unoccupied or with small mining operations. You send to each of those systems one or more combat fleets and an escorted supply ship (with long sensor range), and make sure they're cleansed of enemy assets. These systems are your supply depots and fallback areas. Deploy the supply ships, refuel and then jump the fleets to their first set of targets deep into enemy territory. Kill targets, and jump back to supply systems. Rinse, repeat.

Erik, how likely is the AI to counter this with his own fleets, if a system with only a few mining stations is attacked?



solops -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 10:53:47 PM)

Take fuel out of the game. I don't want to count and micro-manage beans. The same goes for fuel. This eliminates a huge, multi-headed problem. Simulate logistical support in another fashion.



Stilletto -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 11:09:50 PM)

I think fuel is a big issue, but I like the fact that it's hard to send ships far away. One big thing that would help would be ships in "orbit" stay with the planet while the planet itself orbits the sun and the ship uses zero fuel. That way I can worry about fuel going to ships heading system to system and not the ships on guard duty. No, I don't use automation in any way. It's against my religion.



jfpOne23 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/29/2010 11:49:04 PM)

I agree with Solops. Give us the option to turn off "supply" for any newly started game. Q: Utilize Supply in this game? Checkbox: No. Problem solved.

It is my belief that Star Faring species would have solved the problems of ship self-sufficiency via on-board equipment and a handy Gas Giant well before reaching their first colonizable star system. Us Humans are already 1/2 way there before we have even colonized one of our own planets or moons. Imagine what we learn in another 100 years? Fueling at Jupiter, and drinking water from an Earth orbiting chunk of ice towed back from the rings of Saturn.

Supply should be an option for added or lessened complexity in this game.



malkuth74 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/30/2010 12:30:45 AM)

I really don't want them to get rid of the fuel thing. Because once it works right it can be a very strategic thing in a game. IE take out an enemies means to fuel his fleets and his fleet stall is always a problem in any war.

The problem in the game is that it to micromanagement right now. Way to much work has to go into keeping your fleets supplied it should be automated as long as you have the Transports moving and the gas miners going. It should all be automated.

To stop ships from traveling where they can't should be a range limit on the ships. Which works in most games.



theonlystd -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/30/2010 1:05:52 AM)

Part of the problem could be the size of fleets.. Make fleets to big and with bigger ships.. They seem to drain space ports or gas mining places even pretty easily if you one has a large concentration of ships...



henri51 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/30/2010 1:26:44 AM)

It has been pointed out before that space warfare is really 3-D naval warfare. Long-distance support is best exemplified by the Pacific War, where both the US and Japanese major (if not main)problem was supporting fleets over long distances.

In the case of the US, this was solved by preliminary establishment of supply bases in Australia and Noumea, and protecting the supply corridor to there from the US (which the Japanese made little effort to counteract - a major strategic error).

So it seems reasonable to me that establishment of supply bases for faraway operations should be in the game. But the question is, given the ideology of the game, how to implement this without demanding too much micromanagement, and how to make sure that the AI is not crippled by the feature. From what I am reading, it is my impression that neither of these two conditions have been addressed satisfactorily.

Since I don't have the game (yet) I could be wrong about the above, and I don't have any solution to propose, but as has been suggested, perhaps simply replacing fuel by a range limit for ships (a la Galciv) could have simulated this.

I am holding out until this issue becomes clearer, because it could be a real game breaker...

Henri



jfpOne23 -> RE: Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot (3/30/2010 1:35:00 AM)

I wasn't saying to eliminate supply. I also have a love/hate relationship with the well implemented logistical side of war gaming. And I agree that it's very rewarding to manage a "Fleet on the Move" better than your opponent does. And see the effects of careful stockpiling and planning.

I'm just saying, turn it on, or turn it off as you wish. Simple really. Make it an option like how many star systems you want or how many species in your particular customizations at game start.



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