Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon?

Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (Full Version)

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fflaguna -> Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 9:47:25 PM)
Is it worthwhile to attack Ceylon with KB in January 1942? What are your thoughts?

findmeifyoucan -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 9:50:40 PM)
I don't thinks so. I have better things to go for like getting Singapore and Java as soon as possible for the oil and the nice Naval bases.

Q-Ball -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 9:56:22 PM)
I can't see a raid on Ceylon sinking much. In January 1942, what would you sink by raiding Colombo? An R-Class BB maybe? Not much. What you lose is that you reveal KB's position. It isn't worth it. INVADING Ceylon, though, has merit. If you capture Colombo, don't forget you "sink" 2 RN CVs. Alot of folks don't know that.

khyberbill -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 9:57:43 PM)
I consider it rather gamey for Japan to venture beyond Singers until it is taken (except subs). After that, I am not sure what you would accomplish unless you are planning an invasion of Ceylon. In one of my PBEMs, mini KB did come calling in late Jan 42 after Singers had fallen and ran into 4 CV's. Mini KB is now minus KB.

findmeifyoucan -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 9:58:33 PM)
It is also such a long way away from the action that when you do reveal your position the Allies have free reign for several days without fear of your KB showing up

crsutton -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 10:10:46 PM)
No but a smart Japanese player should invade Celyon as soon as Singapore falls.

khyberbill -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 10:24:59 PM)
quote: No but a smart Japanese player should invade Celyon as soon as Singapore falls. I think that is in the mind of most JFB's. I begin fortifying as quickly as possible. I don't know if I can hold it but I know I can be a PITA. There was an AAR about an invasion and it went badly for the JFB. Initial gains went nicely but then everything ground to a halt just as Allied reinforcements started to ramp up. It takes about 50 days to send a division from East Coast to Bombay. That is your window for taking Ceylon. And to hold it, at least against my experience, the JFB will have to station KB there. That leaves the DEI ripe for picking. And lets not forget about night attacks of B17/24s from southern India on the airfields. Yes, I almost welcome an invasion of Ceylon. In my 5 PBEMs, no one has done it yet; they appear to prefer the girls of Oz!

Q-Ball -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 10:34:09 PM)
I don't think it's automatic to invade it for Japan. There are merits, but there are reasons not to, including: 1. Not easy: The units that start on Ceylon are pretty solid, and lots of CD guns 2. Doesn't buy you much: No resources, it doesn't get you anywhere unless you want to invade India 3. Impossible to hold: It can be bombed from plenty of places in India once the Allies get some planes. The supply line is tenuous and easy to attack. What you gain is the "sinking" of those 2 RN CVs, plus the capture of at least 10K troops, as they can't retreat It takes at least 3-4 divisions to take it, so you will divert effort from elsewhere to accomplish this I think Darwin is a higher priority

zace -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 11:01:03 PM)
Can someone explain in more detail the sinking of the CVs? Do they not come into the game if you have taken the port? I am confused on this point.

khyberbill -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/6/2010 11:51:26 PM)
quote: Do they not come into the game if you have taken the port? a Yes, it is probably a bug or an issue of unintended consequences. A good AFB doesn't need them. And you have to take Colombo which can be difficult.

witpqs -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 12:05:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zace Can someone explain in more detail the sinking of the CVs? Do they not come into the game if you have taken the port? I am confused on this point. It's a bug in the scenario. There are two RN CV's that arrive at Colombo and one RN CVL that arrives at Trincomalee in 1944 or maybe 1945. IRL they arrived from off-map. The problem is that with them 'arriving' at the on-map ports, when those ports are captured by the enemy the ships are then 'destroyed while building'. If you are starting scenario 1 PBM (and probably the other grand campaign scenarios) you and your opponent should consider modifying the scenario to avoid that. Make the ships arrive at Aden or something a little earlier (to account for less steaming time from the Atlantic).

Chickenboy -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 1:15:53 AM)
Wasn't aware of the 'destroyed while building' bug. I've seen that message on some MLs in Hong Kong after capture, but didn't think it extended to capital ships, for goodness sake... In one of my PBEMs, I've hit Perth (April 1942), Darwin (March 1942) and Ceylon-both Trincomalee and Colombo (February 1942). This was immediately after the fall of Singapore. I consider the last raids certainly fair game-KB transited the straits of Malacca to get up there. Complete surprise. The raid netted a modest yield. The Royal Sovereign absorbed upwards of 20 800kg bombs and numerous smaller ones. Glen and other float plane intel pre-raid identified in excess of 45 ships in Colombo's harbor-xAKs, TKs, support AVPs, the BB and others. I considered it a worthwhile endeavor to try to sink or damage 45 ships for comparative minimal risk to KB. Execution was OK. I sank a CL or two out of Trincomalee, maybe another couple there. The problem was with the targetting on the Colombo strike. Only one or two other ships other than the BB was targetted. As I told my PBEM partner at the time, instead of spreading the love around a little, the BB was bombed into a flaming wreck. Then the wreck was depth charged to the surface and bombed again. Fleeing crewmen were bombed in turn. Then they were followed to their ancestral home and that was bombed too. Lastly, crewmen were bombed at the molecular level of their genetic code. But nothing else was bombed. [8\|] Air resistance on day one was minimal. I decided to stick around for a second day-by then he had several flights of Hurrican IIb trop fighters in the air-this caused moderate casualties amongst my KB pilots, even though all strikes were well escorted. The targetting code for port strikes was a bit nutty. Suffice to say that the Royal Sovereign is going to be out of action for a long time if it didn't already sink. I consider that worth it, but just. Rembember that I didn't have a PH strike in my game, so putting old BBs out of the game for a long time is a laudable goal for me. If you think that you can sneak up there and deliver a nasty surprise blow, then DO IT. That's the whole point of KB-strike while you have a distinct superiority in quality and quantity. Least that's my take.

crsutton -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 4:21:00 AM)
I suspect that they will change it in the next patch where the Allied player will not lose the two CVs and one CVL. I am playing the Allies in two games and can attest that the Indian Army is too weak to defend both Ceylon and the Northern plain in March-April of 42. Troop experience is pitifully low and there is just no airforce to speak of. Celyon is worth taking both to kill the carriers (you get the VP as well) and kill any troops the Allied player is foolish enough to send there. The loss of two or three divisions and support units trapped in Celyon will prostrate the Indian army until well into 1943. Celyon can be lightly garrisoned as the total lack of amphibious shipping in SE Asia will make it hard for the Allies to recover unless they commit carriers and AP from other theaters. If they take it back, so be it.... No big deal and it is one more stumbling block. Darwin is important but I see too many Japanese players charge too far into Northern OZ. The difference is that a good Allied player can take his lumps, retreat and save his forces in OZ. Once the Allied player regains his balance, he has a ready made battlefield to attrit the Japanese. You invade Celyon and kill the Allied units there and they are gone for good.... and you have not opened up a massive second front. The Allies are incredibly weak in AE. Much more so than in WITP. From what I see careful Japanese planning can take out Celyon and Darwin by May 1942. My two cents anyways.

witpqs -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 6:26:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton The Allies are incredibly weak in AE. Much more so than in WITP. From what I see careful Japanese planning can take out Celyon and Darwin by May 1942. My two cents anyways. I agree. This is probably mostly due to PP's being too restricted for the Allies in AE (meaning either PP's per day too low OR too many units restricted to North America needing PP's to be bought out). The key with Ceylon is a bit of a guessing game - how much the IJ brings versus how much the Allies put there. During the early phases, IJ can bring enough no matter how much the Allies put there, but how much do they bring? And if they come too late, and the Allies have put enough there, the equation changes. At that point taking Ceylon is either impossible or will cost IJ too dearly.

crsutton -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 7:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton The Allies are incredibly weak in AE. Much more so than in WITP. From what I see careful Japanese planning can take out Celyon and Darwin by May 1942. My two cents anyways. I agree. This is probably mostly due to PP's being too restricted for the Allies in AE (meaning either PP's per day too low OR too many units restricted to North America needing PP's to be bought out). The key with Ceylon is a bit of a guessing game - how much the IJ brings versus how much the Allies put there. During the early phases, IJ can bring enough no matter how much the Allies put there, but how much do they bring? And if they come too late, and the Allies have put enough there, the equation changes. At that point taking Ceylon is either impossible or will cost IJ too dearly. Agreed. Timing is important. What the Japanese can accomplish in India in March-April 1943 becomes almost impossible by June. However, PPs are a big issue. The Allied player has to pay PPs to load any Indian units but a few onto ships to move them to Ceylon, and the Allied just do not have the PPs because they are desparate to get West Coast units to SoPac and Oz. Lost carriers or not, I move all but a skeleton force out of Ceylon and leave it to the Japanes if they show signs of moving on it early. It is a bitch to lose but cannot be held without a commitment that will rob other theaters. Come June 42, if I see the Japanese player is going elsewhere, I move back into Ceylon. I would rather lose territory over divisions early in the game. This applies to any point where I don't think I can hold. Darwin, PM, Noumea, Sulva, Aukland, Ceylon. Truth is until 6/42 or so. A good Japanese player can take any of these that he wants. No matter what an Allied player does.

crsutton -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/7/2010 7:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton The Allies are incredibly weak in AE. Much more so than in WITP. From what I see careful Japanese planning can take out Celyon and Darwin by May 1942. My two cents anyways. I agree. This is probably mostly due to PP's being too restricted for the Allies in AE (meaning either PP's per day too low OR too many units restricted to North America needing PP's to be bought out). The key with Ceylon is a bit of a guessing game - how much the IJ brings versus how much the Allies put there. During the early phases, IJ can bring enough no matter how much the Allies put there, but how much do they bring? And if they come too late, and the Allies have put enough there, the equation changes. At that point taking Ceylon is either impossible or will cost IJ too dearly. Agreed. Timing is important. What the Japanese can accomplish in India in March-April 1943 becomes almost impossible by June. However, PPs are a big issue. The Allied player has to pay PPs to load any Indian units but a few onto ships to move them to Ceylon, and the Allied just do not have the PPs because they are desparate to get West Coast units to SoPac and Oz. Lost carriers or not, I move all but a skeleton force out of Ceylon and leave it to the Japanese if they show signs of moving on it early. It is a bitch to lose but cannot be held without a commitment that will rob other theaters. Come June 42, if I see the Japanese player is going elsewhere, I move back into Ceylon. I would rather lose territory over divisions early in the game. This applies to any point where I don't think I can hold. Darwin, PM, Noumea, Sulva, Aukland, Ceylon. Truth is until 6/42 or so. A good Japanese player can take any of these that he wants. No matter what an Allied player does.

dasboot1960 -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 12:12:48 AM)
I think the when + how is the whole key here. As ally, I feel one must make a plan - where I will run, where I will fight- and try to execute it. If one even begins accepting the 'I can't defend here if he wants it' mantra --then nothing is defensible. Maybe tkiilerich will hand my head to me and I'll feel differently (I'll fess up, but I haven't got the time for AAR - I'm only here waiting for a turn) For me the mantra is 'bring it, B***H!! I'm HERE for a fight!!'

ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 1:00:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dasboot I think the when + how is the whole key here. As ally, I feel one must make a plan - where I will run, where I will fight- and try to execute it. If one even begins accepting the 'I can't defend here if he wants it' mantra --then nothing is defensible. Maybe tkiilerich will hand my head to me and I'll feel differently (I'll fess up, but I haven't got the time for AAR - I'm only here waiting for a turn) For me the mantra is 'bring it, B***H!! I'm HERE for a fight!!' You have the right attitude. Maybe the Japanese can take Colombo in the short term, but if you make them pay for it it only hastens their demise. Anywhere the Allies can engage the Japanese in a battle of attrition works in the Allies favor in the long run.

Canoerebel -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 1:40:41 AM)
The Allies can build up Ceylon pretty quickly, so Ceylon can be a tough battle. More importantly (and as Q-Ball alluded to), the use of the KB in Ceylon tells the Allied player that he can move with impunity in the Aleutians, CenPac, SoPac, and part of SWPac for weeks without fear of carrier raids. This can permit the Allies to expedite moves of supply, fuel and reinforcement transports by weeks. This, in turn, may mean the Japanese player loses (or makes much more costly) future moves on key bases. For instance, the Allied player might be able to much more strongly garrison Noumea, Suva, and Pago Pago while the KB is in the Indian Ocean. The Japanese player might get lucky and clobber a bunch of Allied ships hanging around Ceylon, but the cost is going to be signficicant - and if the Japanese player doesn't get lucky, he's conceded a strategic advantage that his opponent will truly savor.

Smeulders -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 9:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton However, PPs are a big issue. The Allied player has to pay PPs to load any Indian units but a few onto ships to move them to Ceylon, and the Allied just do not have the PPs because they are desparate to get West Coast units to SoPac and Oz. There are already 3 brigades on the Island and it's not too hard to find reinforcements on that part of the map. There are at least 3 extra Bde, a British and 2 Australian divisions unrestricted, and more likely even more Indian troops. The problem with Ceylon is that if the Japanese move fast enough, they can take the island before the reinforcements arrive, but once they do the Japanese will have to bring a lot.

Jim D Burns -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 10:49:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dasboot If one even begins accepting the 'I can't defend here if he wants it' mantra --then nothing is defensible. Your attitude is a noble one, but for the first 150 days or so, the allies have been hard coded to fail in AE. It might be laudable to think your troops can stand and fight, but the fact is they simply can’t due to game mechanics. Experience and morale are the issues that cause the allies to fold just about every time. Until you get experience above 50 (60+ is better), your troops aren’t going to be able to throw much firepower around during battles. It’s one of the hallmarks of Gary Grigsby’s games, for some reason he codes it so 50+ units do well, less than 50 and they completely suck. The problem with morale is units will simply up and surrender right in the middle of combat resolution even if they vastly outnumber their opponents and are slated to win the battle. It’s a die roll, fail and they surrender no matter what, nothing you can do about it except not fight with very low morale. And in the first month, the little battalions the allies have all over the place surrender in droves due to morale in the 20s and 30s. You need to get your preparation points up to 100 before you can start training up unit experience, and it usually takes a good month or more after they hit the 100 mark before they finally get up above 50 experience if they are resting at a rear area base. That’s why I say it’s the first 150 days where Japan can do whatever he wants, because the allied units are not dependable enough to stand up to Japan in a fight. Sure you might get lucky and none of your units will surrender in a given battle, but that is a rare thing to see when using the crappy units you see at game start. You should stuff as many units as possible in non-malarial bases and put them on rest. That at least allows their morale to recover at a decent pace. But there is nothing you can do but wait for the prep points to build up before you can start training your unit’s experience up. Everything the allied player does in the first 6 months in game should be geared towards making his land army dependable in a fight. Sending units into battle before they are ready is a total wasted effort, the high experienced high morale Japanese units will steam roll them. Jim

ADB123 -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 11:09:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: dasboot If one even begins accepting the 'I can't defend here if he wants it' mantra --then nothing is defensible. Your attitude is a noble one, but for the first 150 days or so, the allies have been hard coded to fail in AE. It might be laudable to think your troops can stand and fight, but the fact is they simply can’t due to game mechanics. Experience and morale are the issues that cause the allies to fold just about every time. Until you get experience above 50 (60+ is better), your troops aren’t going to be able to throw much firepower around during battles. It’s one of the hallmarks of Gary Grigsby’s games, for some reason he codes it so 50+ units do well, less than 50 and they completely suck. The problem with morale is units will simply up and surrender right in the middle of combat resolution even if they vastly outnumber their opponents and are slated to win the battle. It’s a die roll, fail and they surrender no matter what, nothing you can do about it except not fight with very low morale. And in the first month, the little battalions the allies have all over the place surrender in droves due to morale in the 20s and 30s. You need to get your preparation points up to 100 before you can start training up unit experience, and it usually takes a good month or more after they hit the 100 mark before they finally get up above 50 experience if they are resting at a rear area base. That’s why I say it’s the first 150 days where Japan can do whatever he wants, because the allied units are not dependable enough to stand up to Japan in a fight. Sure you might get lucky and none of your units will surrender in a given battle, but that is a rare thing to see when using the crappy units you see at game start. You should stuff as many units as possible in non-malarial bases and put them on rest. That at least allows their morale to recover at a decent pace. But there is nothing you can do but wait for the prep points to build up before you can start training your unit’s experience up. Everything the allied player does in the first 6 months in game should be geared towards making his land army dependable in a fight. Sending units into battle before they are ready is a total wasted effort, the high experienced high morale Japanese units will steam roll them. Jim And there is one additional whammy that you forgot to add - the presence of "20/20" leaders in the Allied ranks. Essentially, if you try to lead your LCUs into combat with leaders that have less than 50/50 qualities (there's that magic "50" again...) you will fail, and the Allies have lots of really bad leaders early in the game in Burma and India. So that means that in addition to resting your troops in non-malarial backwater bases, you have to spend PPs to upgrade the leaders for all of the units where you must fight, and it takes time to accumulate PPs. So, in a nutshell, there is no point in shipping something like a "5/5" Indian Armoured unit that has a "35/35" leader into contact with the enemy until that unit has improved a great amount, and you have the PPs to spare to change the leader. And the Allies have a horrific number of units like that in the first few months of the game. That makes not losing your few good units even more critical.

Chickenboy -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 12:59:39 PM)
Getting back to the OP question-a KB raid on Ceylon-it's absolutely tenable, justifiable, realistic and (I think) worthwhile.

Dixie -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 1:14:19 PM)
If possible I'd try and wait until Mar/Apr 1942. There will be more RN ships in Ceylon, if you time it right some CVs, and possibly some cripples repairing at Colombo after battles in the DEI.

sprior -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 1:18:57 PM)
I'm reading this you know... And if you do try it I'll know where the big boys are and so can go where they aren't.

Dixie -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 1:47:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sprior I'm reading this you know... And if you do try it I'll know where the big boys are and so can go where they aren't. I'm hoping you're reading this. Now you'll think that I'm going to try a raid on Ceylon when your carriers arrive. But you also know that I know you think I might try that so you'll think I won't. And if I know that you know that I know that you know I think you know that I won't try the raid I could try it. But you know that so you'll think I won't...

crsutton -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 2:52:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel The Allies can build up Ceylon pretty quickly, so Ceylon can be a tough battle. More importantly (and as Q-Ball alluded to), the use of the KB in Ceylon tells the Allied player that he can move with impunity in the Aleutians, CenPac, SoPac, and part of SWPac for weeks without fear of carrier raids. This can permit the Allies to expedite moves of supply, fuel and reinforcement transports by weeks. This, in turn, may mean the Japanese player loses (or makes much more costly) future moves on key bases. For instance, the Allied player might be able to much more strongly garrison Noumea, Suva, and Pago Pago while the KB is in the Indian Ocean. The Japanese player might get lucky and clobber a bunch of Allied ships hanging around Ceylon, but the cost is going to be signficicant - and if the Japanese player doesn't get lucky, he's conceded a strategic advantage that his opponent will truly savor. Perhaps, but in March-April of 1943, the Allies have few options as they have very few assets that can be moved anywhere. There is some consolation in knowing that the KB is not in the Pacific but I find that KB is rarely in the South Pacific during this period anyways as they are usually used to support operations in the DEI and Darwin area during this time period. It is a relatively safe time for the Allies anyways.

Canoerebel -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 2:57:57 PM)
I'm speaking more of early '42 (January to June), when the security of the sea lanes is of paramount importance as the Allies are so pressed to reinforce SWPac, SoPac, and CenPac. By early '43 the situation has stabalized and the forces are at or near parity. By then the Allies are usually moving forward, or about to move forward, and the LOC ought to be more secure. But even then knowledge of the whereabouts of the KB is of tremendous value to an Allied player who is always looking for a good opportunity to pounce at low risk.

Chickenboy -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 3:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sprior I'm reading this you know... And if you do try it I'll know where the big boys are and so can go where they aren't. What navy is going to go 'where the big boys aren't'? Would this be the same navy that is burning at the docks in Colombo? Perhaps this is the navy that was immolated at their moorings in Trincomalee? Just how good are the RN bilge pumps that they can get underway with a bunch of holes in their (flaming) ships?

Chickenboy -> RE: Early KB attack on Colombo/Ceylon? (4/8/2010 3:35:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I'm speaking more of early '42 (January to June), when the security of the sea lanes is of paramount importance as the Allies are so pressed to reinforce SWPac, SoPac, and CenPac. By early '43 the situation has stabalized and the forces are at or near parity. By then the Allies are usually moving forward, or about to move forward, and the LOC ought to be more secure. But even then knowledge of the whereabouts of the KB is of tremendous value to an Allied player who is always looking for a good opportunity to pounce at low risk. What are you going to 'pounce' with in February or March of 1942? So you know that KB is about 5 days journey West of Singapore on February 20, 1941. What are you possibly going to do about it? Do you have some coiled host waiting to move on Rabaul or Port Moresby then? I doubt it. The allies are in disarray and in no shape for a counteroffensive at that stage. Yes, a KB raid in 1943 on Ceylon would likely have greater resistance and be less fruitful. I don't think there are too many players that would advocate for that.

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