RE: Maps (Full Version)

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Reboot -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 4:51:27 PM)

Dundradal

You might want to do a little research before you start attacking or belittling Mafi. He stands alone in terms of his incredible contribution to CC over the years - I challenge anyone to list any individual who has made a greater contribution to the game - Mafi's selflessness is very likely the best example of a CC "community" member and one we should all aspire to emulating

That Mafi would express any frustration at all - actually the first time I have ever see that - is an indication that there is something exasperating about all the vitriolic attacks on the "Developers" and therefore anyone associated with any or all the work that went into LSA




xe5 -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 4:51:37 PM)

@Dundradal - Mafi's 5CC map tool is the current technology being used to make CC maps (terrain/elevation code, roofs, LOS, OVM/MMM) after the main map painting is complete. Im not familiar with the tools used to make the original CC2 maps, but I have used the map tools Atomic made the CC3/4/5 maps with. 5CC is not only far superior, and backwards compatible with multiple CC versions, but Mafi keeps improving it. If there is a better, less labor intensive method, Mafi is the 'laborer of love' that can create it.

@Oddball - Driel North has the same .5 meter raised roads issue as Grafwegen. When I suggest elevating raised roadbeds to 2-2.5 meters, that's relative to adjacent terrain. If you think of raised roads as rice paddy dikes, the 'dikes' should block LOS between the rice paddies they separate.

@Mafi - any thoughts on the possible 5CC grayscale rounding issue (4 meter elevation increments) Oddball mentions in post #18 of this thread?



Dundradal -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 5:03:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reboot

Dundradal

You might want to do a little research before you start attacking or belittling Mafi. He stands alone in terms of his incredible contribution to CC over the years - I challenge anyone to list any individual who has made a greater contribution to the game - Mafi's selflessness is very likely the best example of a CC "community" member and one we should all aspire to emulating

That Mafi would express any frustration at all - actually the first time I have ever see that - is an indication that there is something exasperating about all the vitriolic attacks on the "Developers" and therefore anyone associated with any or all the work that went into LSA




Attacking or belittling? Did you read my post? I asked a question and got a condescending reply. There was no attack I asked him why he responded in that way. It wasn't an attack on the way things are done. I simply asked if there was a better way.

Have you read any of my other posts? Maybe you should also do a little research before attempting to lecture me. I've made no attacks. I've posted constructive criticism and tried to be a voice of reason in many threads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Dundradal - Mafi's 5CC map tool is the current technology being used to make CC maps (terrain/elevation code, roofs, LOS, OVM/MMM) after the main map painting is complete. Im not familiar with the tools used to make the original CC2 maps, but I have used the map tools Atomic made the CC3/4/5 maps with. 5CC is not only far superior, and backwards compatible with multiple CC versions, but Mafi keeps improving it. If there is a better, less labor intensive method, Mafi is the 'laborer of love' that can create it.


Ok well good to know. Again, I'm not sure if everyone understood what I meant. I've posted multiple times how much I love the maps in CC. I just asked if there was a better way to code them is all. I didn't say burn the bastard who invented the current way. So thank you Mafi for your map creating tools. Again, I just asked a question.



Mafi -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 5:20:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5
@Mafi - any thoughts on the possible 5CC grayscale rounding issue (4 meter elevation increments) Oddball mentions in post #18 of this thread?


Hi xe5, hi Reboot,

thanks for the support. And in deed, when looking at the new threads at Ryan's HQ I feel the old times coming back. There was a statement by K.Z. in his "about me" as a novel author (already deleted by him) concerning the times as Atomic-CiC: "... dealing with cats, or even wrangling cats". Now I know what it means.

The greyscale rounding issue:
Basics:
- we have 256 grey values when it comes to the RGB-model.
- in RGB, on a monitor, you will see grey if Red=Green=Blue.
- if you want to have minor differences between two values (for example "1" and "2"), the human eye will hardly see it.
- human eye will have more problems to identify grey differences for "very dark / nearly black" and "nearly white".
- another problem is the internal handling what you will see. CC graphics are 16bit, monitor output is 24bit.
- map terrain data is based on 10x10 pixel squares. So we have 100 pixels for each data tile.

5CC will make pure mathematics:
- Taking the pixel values, calculating the average value of Red+Green+Blue for every pixel to get a single grey value between 0..255,
- then calculating the average grey value of all 100 pixels of one data tile, and the result will be stored in the data tiles elevation.
- then calculating the next data tile and so on...

The problem is:
- Cpl_Filth invented the method using a greyscale image (by decoloring the BGM) to make elevation editing easier, because in those days we had no better alternatives in rapid elevation modding. He also made a good tutorial, which I can not find on my HD anymore. His tool "CCmold" is still online and requires JavaVM and the graphics to be shrinked down to 10% (one pixel representing one data tile).
http://www.student.oulu.fi/%7Epsaastam/

A possible solution:
- more contrast (that means larger grey steps, example: "1" and "6",
- importing the image to generate the elevation,
- then using 5CC's "Data actions" / "Elevation" to multiply all elevation by "0.2" to eliminate the contrast effect,
- then elevating the entire map using the "Data actions" / "Elevation" adding a value.

While writing this, I have an idea how to improve visiblity for the human eye and to avoid rounding effects:
- paint your greyscale over the BGM,
- shrink the size to 10% as requested by Cpl_Filth's tool,
- then expand the size by 1000% and you will have squares and no roundings. I use for this GraphicConverter, not PS.

So far on this...

Cheers
Mafi



Dundradal -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 6:16:44 PM)

And in case I wasn't clear....

Mafi thanks for your hard work on the map-making process. I was merely posting the question if there was a better way. It just seems like the current one is very time consuming is all. I wasn't putting down your hard work (I wasn't even aware of it at the time my apologies), so keep up the good work!




Reboot -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 6:38:18 PM)

And speaking of selflessness, astonishing contributions to the CC community, and "maps", Southern_land has created how many maps for CC?......400+?

And what exactly has he gotten out of it? Respect? Admiration? Appreciation? The dude is a true artist and CC enthusiast (did I mention hilarious and devilishly handsome?) who has spent thousands of hours creating an almost endless virtual landscape for us CC fans. His financial reward? I'm pretty sure he got a couple of free boxed games, so lets do the math on that...what? $.001/hr?
And exactly how many folks who have posted in this thread have ever created a CC map?

I wonder how SL feels when he peeks in here and sees a thread called "half-assed maps?".....take a guess




Mafi -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 6:45:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dundradal
(I wasn't even aware of it at the time my apologies)


Accepted! As Reboot told, look at the S3T credits table in game to see who is who. Me is only a minor contributor to the course. And yes: the map making process is, was and will be a time consuming process, independently what game you will create. The more details, the more work. And we are talking here of 1km x 1km maps.



mooxe -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 6:55:25 PM)

This has been an enjoyable thread. It just goes to show you theres too little time between these rereleases being stamped out, not enough people doing the programming and certainly not enough effort on beta testing.



LitFuel -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 6:58:16 PM)

oh good lord...ok ok we get it...CC GODS are here CC GODS are here..lol...you make it sound like Dundradal made the title of the thread as well when in fact it was one of your own. The fact is the guy paid 40 to 60 or more bucks to play the game...he can say any freaking thing he wants at this point and looking at the posts they werent that bad for the hurricane of oh your not worthy to talk posts he got. Not everyone has a CC stick up their butt and if anything some of you should apologize back. Either do the work on the game because you love it or don't but don't expect people who paid money for a game to be treated like they are second class....there are nicer ways to explain things and not every one needs to learn who the GODS are to express themselves.



Dundradal -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 7:09:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reboot

And speaking of selflessness, astonishing contributions to the CC community, and "maps", Southern_land has created how many maps for CC?......400+?

I wonder how SL feels when he peeks in here and sees a thread called "half-assed maps?".....take a guess



Probably fine once he reads it and sees what its about. It has nothing to do with the drawing of the maps. It has to do with coding.

LitFuel, well said and thanks. I apologized when to be honest I really didn't need to. I merely posted a question and got jumped on. I'm curious why no one jumped on xe5? After all he started this thread about the maps. I have been merely commenting along the way.




xe5 -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 7:31:58 PM)

@Mafi - this may be the shading tutorial by CplFilth you mention. I just find it odd that even with the naked eye you can see variations on the grayscale Oddball posted that werent followed by the map artist or by 5CC (eg. the 'checkerboard' pattern at the south bridge approach with many adjacent individual elements having different gray values).

@Reboot - nothing wrong with the map artwork. That's the half that's not assed. But there have been countless maps created for CC, even some by Atomic, where the terrain and/or elevation coding was bad. The map you see on-screen is just a 'pretty picture'. The real map used is the terrain and elevation coding.



Reboot -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 7:41:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

oh good lord...ok ok we get it...CC GODS are here CC GODS are here..lol...you make it sound like Dundradal made the title of the thread as well when in fact it was one of your own. The fact is the guy paid 40 to 60 or more bucks to play the game...he can say any freaking thing he wants at this point and looking at the posts they werent that bad for the hurricane of oh your not worthy to talk posts he got. Not everyone has a CC stick up their butt and if anything some of you should apologize back. Either do the work on the game because you love it or don't but don't expect people who paid money for a game to be treated like they are second class....there are nicer ways to explain things and not every one needs to learn who the GODS are to express themselves.


Yes - Folks like Mafi & SL who choose to donate their time likely do it for love of the game, and they are both very modest about their contributions, -And yes, if there are such things as CC Gods, those two dudes deserve the title

Yes - People who bought the game and have made comments, suggestions or complaints, certainly appear to be recognized and valued based on the brisk pace of the responses and expressions of appreciation for the feedback by the developers - I see no sign of anyone being treated as second class by the developers.

Yes - If there is any way that CC can become better because of feedback, by anyone, in whatever form, I will directly benefit, because, even after 10 years plus, I can't stop/don't want to stop playing the damned game. I want more.

My opinions are strictly my own, I am only a long-term CC player & fan. Your apt description, "a CC stick up their butt" successfully defines what/who irks me. The dramas, grudges, girlie-fits & back-biting that has been a part of CC "community" for years is truly wearying. Every time there is a new CC release it signals time to storm Frankenstein's castle......"It's Alive!"

....more like "Kill It!"




Reboot -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 8:20:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Reboot - nothing wrong with the map artwork. That's the half that's not assed. But there have been countless maps created for CC, even some by Atomic, where the terrain and/or elevation coding was bad. The map you see on-screen is just a 'pretty picture'. The real map used is the terrain and elevation coding.


And if you have coded maps then you know it is a mind-numbing, time consuming process with limited automation, fraught with the constant need for "operator judgement", even for small maps, let alone current large scale maps. The restricted interface between the terrain & elevation coding prevents a constant integrated approach to coding each of the tens of thousands of little farkin squares. The maps have become increasingly detailed, or "pretty" as you say, and as a direct result the required complexity of the coding has increased putting greater stress on the coder and the available coding tools. The map coders in the case of LSA must have had the patience of Job and an incredible amount of available time given the circumstances.

I recall after the last release, a customer, who was knowledgable and skilled such as yourself, identified a problem with the way that windows and doors were coded and went so far as to roll up his sleeves and re-code a number of maps to demonstrate his solution to the problem. That was very constuctive criticism, eh?



Peterk1 -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 9:37:23 PM)

<removed..posted in wrong thread>



xe5 -> RE: Maps (7/25/2010 10:58:44 PM)

@Reboot - The crux of the issue is that map elevation coding can be almost entirely automated using the relief shading grayscale from the map image base layers. Let 5CC chew on the grayscale for a while and it spits out the elevation coding. Then it should be just a matter of bldg leveling and QA touch-up. And on to the utter, and imperative, drudgery of 'photo interpretation' and terrain coding. I pretty sure the dev team understands the extent of the problem. If the rest of the grayscale bump maps are in a state similar to the one Oddball posted (post #18), there likely isnt an available, economical solution...just a helluva lot of eye strain and hand-jamming.



zon -> RE: Maps (7/26/2010 1:53:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reboot

His financial reward? I'm pretty sure he got a couple of free boxed games, so lets do the math on that...what? $.001/hr?


Unbelievable. Shameful if true.



RD Oddball -> RE: Maps (7/26/2010 2:40:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Oddball - Driel North has the same .5 meter raised roads issue as Grafwegen. When I suggest elevating raised roadbeds to 2-2.5 meters, that's relative to adjacent terrain. If you think of raised roads as rice paddy dikes, the 'dikes' should block LOS between the rice paddies they separate.



Good suggestion. Will make use of it and pass it along to the folks who are also helping review the elevations.



RD Oddball -> RE: Maps (7/26/2010 2:44:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mafi

A possible solution:
- more contrast (that means larger grey steps, example: "1" and "6",
- importing the image to generate the elevation,
- then using 5CC's "Data actions" / "Elevation" to multiply all elevation by "0.2" to eliminate the contrast effect,
- then elevating the entire map using the "Data actions" / "Elevation" adding a value.

While writing this, I have an idea how to improve visiblity for the human eye and to avoid rounding effects:
- paint your greyscale over the BGM,
- shrink the size to 10% as requested by Cpl_Filth's tool,
- then expand the size by 1000% and you will have squares and no roundings. I use for this GraphicConverter, not PS.



Good ideas Mafi. Thanks for the extra info on 5CC. We'll combine this with your other suggestions in the dev forums.

I'm going to chime in on the kudos for your self-less efforts over the years. [&o] I know I've told you before but it's worth repeating... endlessly.



RD Oddball -> RE: Maps (7/26/2010 2:46:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reboot

And speaking of selflessness, astonishing contributions to the CC community, and "maps", Southern_land has created how many maps for CC?......400+?

And what exactly has he gotten out of it? Respect? Admiration? Appreciation? The dude is a true artist and CC enthusiast (did I mention hilarious and devilishly handsome?) who has spent thousands of hours creating an almost endless virtual landscape for us CC fans. His financial reward? I'm pretty sure he got a couple of free boxed games, so lets do the math on that...what? $.001/hr?
And exactly how many folks who have posted in this thread have ever created a CC map?

I wonder how SL feels when he peeks in here and sees a thread called "half-assed maps?".....take a guess



What he said! Thanks from me as well SL! And Reboot I'd be willing to bet he's surpassed 500.



xe5 -> Nice Fix (7/29/2010 1:02:51 AM)

The beta patch makes a very nice fix to the Grave Bridge elevation issues. Good work!


[image]local://upfiles/31774/D1548A1C4D594877B448E47809083C15.jpg[/image]



squadleader_id -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 1:23:55 AM)

Nice work on the fixes, Guys!
Just a reminder...Stream elevation coding not fixed in: Bemmel, Bridge9, DrelNrth.



RD Oddball -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 4:48:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

The beta patch makes a very nice fix to the Grave Bridge elevation issues. Good work!



Thanks. It took me about 4 hours of work. Let me know if it's working as the BGM indicates it should. The LOS was created from the EXE not a map editor. That should make the LOS work more as expected.



RD Oddball -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 4:52:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Nice work on the fixes, Guys!
Just a reminder...Stream elevation coding not fixed in: Bemmel, Bridge9, DrelNrth.


Thanks SL and thanks for the reminder. I just looked and didn't find any bug reports for those three. Were they posted about in a different thread where maybe I missed the reporting? Maybe they got buried in this thread? Also were there specific locations that were problems on those maps or in general? Let me know and I'll file a report so we don't miss it for the second update.



Southernland -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 5:22:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

The beta patch makes a very nice fix to the Grave Bridge elevation issues. Good work!


[image]local://upfiles/31774/D1548A1C4D594877B448E47809083C15.jpg[/image]



if you look at the stop banks north of the river there's still more slope than the greyscale image had ie the stop bank drops elevation east and west of the main road axis and north of the bridge itself which will diminish cover at either side of the map



RD Oddball -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 5:43:15 AM)

Yeah I knew it was different from your original grey scale. Because the import export method of the map editor didn't yield proper results when the first two times around (QM's first pass and me adding proper bridge elevation for under bridge elements) I opted to redo it by hand. Since I took the B&W TGA out of the equation it's giving expected results now. If you want to redo it more to what you had originally designed that would be fine with me. I don't have any particular ownership over the layout. Just redid it based on feedback. You're more than welcome to redo it.

One thing I did notice that you'll need to take into account should you decide to redo it is that the previous elevations where the lower areas were flat made it near impossible to hit the proper bridge height and create a terrain you're describing with the greyscale. There needs to either be a really sharp increase in elevation as you get near the bridge (bad for sprite movement) or have a gradual one like I did. If you edit it by hand rather than creating the greyscale you'll see what I mean. You wind up having a much more intimate understanding of the terrain when you spend 4 hours doing it by hand. [:D]

I'd suggest giving it a try though. IIRC you said you wouldn't be able to get to it until tomorrow or Friday.



Southernland -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 6:19:33 AM)

No worries Jim, I just thought we were getting a funny result (funny odd not funny haha)



Q.M -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 11:48:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

...... You wind up having a much more intimate understanding of the terrain when you spend 4 hours doing it by hand. [:D]

.....


Yup [:'(]



Sarge -> RE: Maps (7/29/2010 12:31:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

oh good lord...ok ok we get it...CC GODS are here CC GODS are here..lol...you make it sound like Dundradal made the title of the thread as well when in fact it was one of your own. The fact is the guy paid 40 to 60 or more bucks to play the game...he can say any freaking thing he wants at this point and looking at the posts they werent that bad for the hurricane of oh your not worthy to talk posts he got. Not everyone has a CC stick up their butt and if anything some of you should apologize back. Either do the work on the game because you love it or don't but don't expect people who paid money for a game to be treated like they are second class....there are nicer ways to explain things and not every one needs to learn who the GODS are to express themselves.



Beer..................[sm=00000436.gif]



Pvt_Grunt -> RE: Maps (7/29/2010 1:15:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Reboot - The crux of the issue is that map elevation coding can be almost entirely automated using the relief shading grayscale from the map image base layers.

Automated should be in quotes, I have used greyscale in the old 3C program and it worked well, but it needed a lot of manual touch ups to make it properly playable. It looks like on these maps the greyscale process worked fine, just not enough manual work after to complete it.

Also, the word "complete" is subjective. I spent hours looking at my maps and changeing , fixing, testing, re- doing it, that's why I made 4 maps in 3 years!
There were some older CC3 maps made with 6 textures, some trees and no elevation chages that people considered "finished" - fine for a first effort but not good enough for a commercial release.

Thanks again to xe5 for the post release playtesting and acting like a "Hooligan" in the forums. [;)]



squadleader_id -> RE: Nice Fix (7/29/2010 5:09:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Nice work on the fixes, Guys!
Just a reminder...Stream elevation coding not fixed in: Bemmel, Bridge9, DrelNrth.


Thanks SL and thanks for the reminder. I just looked and didn't find any bug reports for those three. Were they posted about in a different thread where maybe I missed the reporting? Maybe they got buried in this thread? Also were there specific locations that were problems on those maps or in general? Let me know and I'll file a report so we don't miss it for the second update.


Jim, I reported them earlier in this thread.
I went through a quick check of maps A-D (after xe5 posted his finds) and found glitches on those 3 maps (Bemmel, Bridge9, DrelNrth.)...streams not coded at lower elevation.



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