RE: Useful Info for Beginners (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room



Message

LGKMAS -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/29/2019 11:29:47 PM)

Thanks Kull. That's the sort of commonsense answer I need at turn 2.
I ran the first turn yesterday and I am still digesting the results. Looks generally positive, well as positive as you can expect on 8 Dec. Good exchange rate in aircraft. Shooting down about 3 times what I am losing and most of my losses are on the ground. Ships fleeing have been spotted and some attacked. Bad weather seems to be the go in the Pacific at the moment as none of my cruisers can launch patrol planes, which is a nuisance.
It appears I overlooked some things, such as conversions. I didn't realise you had to actually hit the button to ensure the conversion go ahead. I lost Arizona and Oklahoma but the other BBs look as though they can be readied to return to the west coast shipyards. What level of flotation should I aim for to ensure they can get back to Seattle et al without sinking?

A bit confused on some of the notices. I am getting all the movements hex by hex, including the rail movements. Is this normal or can I toggle this off? Or should I leave it on?

I noticed one of the bases has a white exclamation mark beside it. I cannot find in the manual what this means.

Your initial spreadsheet has certainly helped me get started and I am feeling a bit more confident now. I think some areas I am assuming what happened in UV also happens here. I need to watch that and confirm I do understand the new game Anyway, thank you for your help.
regards



Blackhorse -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 12:27:45 AM)

quote:

I lost Arizona and Oklahoma but the other BBs look as though they can be readied to return to the west coast shipyards. What level of flotation should I aim for to ensure they can get back to Seattle et al without sinking?


Get SYS down to zero; flotation damage below 50 on any BB before you send it the West Coast for repairs. This often takes months. Have ASW-capable ships in an 'Escort' TF to take her home, and have the TF follow an ASW TF to avoid eating a Japanese torpedo halfway between Pearl and SF.



Kull -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 12:28:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

Thanks Kull. That's the sort of commonsense answer I need at turn 2.
I ran the first turn yesterday and I am still digesting the results. Looks generally positive, well as positive as you can expect on 8 Dec. Good exchange rate in aircraft. Shooting down about 3 times what I am losing and most of my losses are on the ground. Ships fleeing have been spotted and some attacked. Bad weather seems to be the go in the Pacific at the moment as none of my cruisers can launch patrol planes, which is a nuisance.


Variability. It aids unpredictability, which is a GOOD thing. And don't worry about loss ratios. The Allies have a nearly unlimited supply of stuff....your opponent does not.

quote:

It appears I overlooked some things, such as conversions. I didn't realise you had to actually hit the button to ensure the conversion go ahead.


Live and learn. Only lost a day, but now you know.

quote:

I lost Arizona and Oklahoma but the other BBs look as though they can be readied to return to the west coast shipyards. What level of flotation should I aim for to ensure they can get back to Seattle et al without sinking?


There's a nest of submarines circling Pearl like sharks, praying for a limping BB. There's no hurry. But as to a specific number, it varies from one player to the next. Typically I like float below 40, but if there's too many BBs clogging the shipyard, i might risk a higher number. But that's just me.

quote:

A bit confused on some of the notices. I am getting all the movements hex by hex, including the rail movements. Is this normal or can I toggle this off? Or should I leave it on?


After spending a week or a few days setting up a turn, an hour of watching everything play through is actually something I look forward to. You can turn off a lot of the notifications (not land movement alone, though), but a new player should not do that. It helps you learn.

quote:

I noticed one of the bases has a white exclamation mark beside it. I cannot find in the manual what this means.


Probably yellow, probably a supply problem.

quote:

Your initial spreadsheet has certainly helped me get started and I am feeling a bit more confident now. I think some areas I am assuming what happened in UV also happens here. I need to watch that and confirm I do understand the new game Anyway, thank you for your help.


The great war machine is creaking and groaning as it slowly comes to life. There's less to do and more understanding of WHAT to do. It will all come together, as you'll see. And still, ten years from now somebody will mention some aspect of the game that was totally unknown to you....how cool is that?



BBfanboy -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 3:02:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

I lost Arizona and Oklahoma but the other BBs look as though they can be readied to return to the west coast shipyards. What level of flotation should I aim for to ensure they can get back to Seattle et al without sinking?


Get SYS down to zero; flotation damage below 50 on any BB before you send it the West Coast for repairs. This often takes months. Have ASW-capable ships in an 'Escort' TF to take her home, and have the TF follow an ASW TF to avoid eating a Japanese torpedo halfway between Pearl and SF.


+1 on the SYS damage reduction and max float damage to take to sea.
Use evasive routing with waypoints to avoid sub concentrations. Monitor SIGINT hits near your route as these are likely subs.

Since the BBs are of limited use until you get control of the air and sea and they get much better AA, I send my damaged slow BBs to ECUSA for repair and upgrades. Once I have those done and enough escorts to allot for protection of the old BBs, I start thinking about where to use them. First in a low threat environment while they get some crew experience. This should be around fall of 1942, with KB's power cut by at least half. The Aleutians can use them to help defend bases and bombard any enemy base if no torpedo bombers are present. Have a CVE TF accompany them.



Alfred -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 3:27:55 AM)

LGKMAS,

AE is quite playable and provides all the relevant information required by a player, straight out of the box.  There is absolutely no need to install any third party software, as none of them provide any additional information which is not provided ingame already.  The better third party software merely presents the game information in a different visual setup which may, or may not be, more easily spotted by individual players.

The correct way of looking at these third party software is to consider them to be the equivalent of an auto transmission in an automobile compared to AE which uses a manual (or stick for our American cousins).  For example, IntelMonkey automatically processes the saved intel to produce it's reports.  A player without it can generate the same report by manually comparing the saved intel and then with the use of pen and paper (or if more technically advanced using something like the Windows system "Notepad"), recording the differences.

Tracker reads the complete saved files to provide the same information as does AE in its various information screens.  The only real difference is that because it obtains its data directly from the saved files, there is no Fog of War ("FOW") present in Tracker and therefore it's information is 100% accurate.  If a player sets up AE to play with FOW turned off, then he too would receive 100% accurate information.  It is remarkable how almost every player chooses to play AE with FOW turned on but then sees no inconsistency with using a third party program which completely negates the point of selecting FOW on in the first place.

Then there is the difficulty which many people have in both installing and then running correctly these third party programs.  Not everyone, and that includes very experienced players and computer users, successfully install these programs.  Even if properly installed, it is not uncommon to find Microsoft releasing a new update which mucks up the installation and the process of trouble shooting begins all ove4r again.  All for no real extra functional ability (other than the subjective visual aspect) which is not already present in the base AE setup.

For new players who are trying to learn the game mechanics, these third party programs do not make the game mechanics any easier to understand.  How does the new player reconcile the screenshot found in the manual with what appears on his monitor after installing a mod.  A recent thread on the main AE forum has dealt with navigable rivers.  Page 37 of the manual has a screenshot of all the terrain types (also found on map, top right hand corner), including how a navigable river is depicted.  Are all the map mods using the same visual identifier, and then how easy is it for a new player to associate the page 37 depiction with whatever is present in that particular map mod.

Driven correctly, both an auto transmission vehicle and a manual transmission vehicle will get one from "A" to "B".  But my life experience is that manual transmission drivers tend to understand their vehicle better and wring out better performance (whether it be fuel economy or Formula 1 standard) than do auto transmission drivers.  I have never met an individual who learnt to drive and pass their manual drivers licence test who was incapable of driving an auto transmission car.  Whereas I have met many who only learnt on an auto transmission car and possess only an auto transmission drivers licence who have no idea how to drive a manual transmission car.  Some of these auto drivers can't even do a kangaroo hop at the traffic lights.

All new players should just get on top of the standard game mechanics first before even contemplating any additional complexity.  Learn the various relationships first manually before using any third party software which by being automated, tends to obscure the relationships.

Alfred



LGKMAS -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 3:32:18 AM)

Thanks Alfred.
I am trying to read the various Combat reports, Op reports and Sigint reports. They do continue on for a few pages. It seemed to me that Tracker or whatever might enable me to do a printout of all the report. Is there any way they can be printed off? Other than "prt sc" and pasting to Word?
regards



Alfred -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 4:00:11 AM)

They are all simple .txt files found in the sub-folder "archive" which is within your "save" folder.

When clicked on, they are automatically opened by Windows "Notepad" program and can be edited and printed from that program.

Alfred 



LGKMAS -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 4:11:20 AM)

Alfred
this is perhaps the best news I have had all week. I am a user of computers, not a programmer. I had no idea these things existed. Thank you again for this. It will make my job of understanding what happened so much easier.

regards



fcooke -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 8:59:23 AM)

I hate automatics. It is getting harder and harder in the US to buy a manual/stick, though the wife scored a six speed Mini Cooper earlier this year after I trashed my SAAB 900 convertible on a tree. And don't get me started on people who do not know how to change a tire.....or jump a battery.



traskott -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 10:31:36 AM)

I love manuals, but afer 20 years, I bought an automatic. It makes the driving more confortable (and boring).


I never used tracker or such. I agree with alfred: game itself gives all the info you needed. Other thing is what you do with that info, which is I use to be in trouble... [:o]



Alfred -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 10:34:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I hate automatics. It is getting harder and harder in the US to buy a manual/stick, though the wife scored a six speed Mini Cooper earlier this year after I trashed my SAAB 900 convertible on a tree. And don't get me started on people who do not know how to change a tire.....or jump a battery.


I understand why someone who only drives in large city traffic, with constant stops and starts at traffic lights, might find it convenient to just drive an automatic transmission car with the lever just left in the "D" position, but even that slight benefit is not sufficient to make me like automatic transmission cars. These automatic owners are not being kind to their vehicle.

1. Driving in such conditions does not generate the high engine temperatures needed to keep an engine in tune. Spark plugs (for ye oldies who remember double declutching on a Model T Ford), fuel injectors, even the engine cylinders, all need that heat generated from 1-2 hours of constant travel at 75mph on country roads.

2. City driving rarely requires (and nowadays with revenue conscious governments keen to reduce speed limits) going above third gear, nor going above 3k revs (which most auto transmissions change gear well before that level). Not only does one miss out on generating the heat to clean the engine but that sweet sound of an Italian engine at 4-5k revs is never heard by the driver. Somewhat akin to an individual who has only ever heard Mariah Carey singing Xmas songs and missed out on hearing Mozart/Beethoven/Bach.

3. It is too easy to lose concentration when all that is required of the driver is to steer. I don't want my left leg to go to sleep by not having anything to do. Being aware of road conditions, of when it may be necessary to downshift to overtake or tackle an incline, or get the torque up to more safely negotiate a windy road (through hill country), these and many other factors involved in driving a manual help to maintain driver alertness.

Learn to drive a manual and one can always step into an automatic. But I haven't seen too many who have learnt to drive an automatic who then subsequently bother to learn how to handle a manual.

Alfred



traskott -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 11:04:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I hate automatics. It is getting harder and harder in the US to buy a manual/stick, though the wife scored a six speed Mini Cooper earlier this year after I trashed my SAAB 900 convertible on a tree. And don't get me started on people who do not know how to change a tire.....or jump a battery.


I understand why someone who only drives in large city traffic, with constant stops and starts at traffic lights, might find it convenient to just drive an automatic transmission car with the lever just left in the "D" position, but even that slight benefit is not sufficient to make me like automatic transmission cars. These automatic owners are not being kind to their vehicle.

1. Driving in such conditions does not generate the high engine temperatures needed to keep an engine in tune. Spark plugs (for ye oldies who remember double declutching on a Model T Ford), fuel injectors, even the engine cylinders, all need that heat generated from 1-2 hours of constant travel at 75mph on country roads.

2. City driving rarely requires (and nowadays with revenue conscious governments keen to reduce speed limits) going above third gear, nor going above 3k revs (which most auto transmissions change gear well before that level). Not only does one miss out on generating the heat to clean the engine but that sweet sound of an Italian engine at 4-5k revs is never heard by the driver. Somewhat akin to an individual who has only ever heard Mariah Carey singing Xmas songs and missed out on hearing Mozart/Beethoven/Bach.

3. It is too easy to lose concentration when all that is required of the driver is to steer. I don't want my left leg to go to sleep by not having anything to do. Being aware of road conditions, of when it may be necessary to downshift to overtake or tackle an incline, or get the torque up to more safely negotiate a windy road (through hill country), these and many other factors involved in driving a manual help to maintain driver alertness.

Learn to drive a manual and one can always step into an automatic. But I haven't seen too many who have learnt to drive an automatic who then subsequently bother to learn how to handle a manual.

Alfred


This. I have a friend who, although had a manual, always went in very high gears, and never push the engine a bit. Two years later, had to spend several hundred euros because engine was blocked.

I never miss the chance of hear a good engine roaring!! Good for driving at every level.



Blackhorse -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 11:12:03 AM)



Alfred

quote:

I have never met an individual who learnt to drive and pass their manual drivers licence test who was incapable of driving an auto transmission car.  Whereas I have met many who only learnt on an auto transmission car and possess only an auto transmission drivers licence who have no idea how to drive a manual transmission car.  Some of these auto drivers can't even do a kangaroo hop at the traffic lights.


Alfred,
Your automatic-manual analogy is spot-on. I've been driving a 'stick' for 30+ years. But for the benefit of those of us who learned our driving slang stateside, what on earth is a "kangaroo hop"?



traskott -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 12:56:43 PM)

You drop the clutch at slow speed/low revolutions.



Kull -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 1:15:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

For new players who are trying to learn the game mechanics, these third party programs do not make the game mechanics any easier to understand.  How does the new player reconcile the screenshot found in the manual with what appears on his monitor after installing a mod.  A recent thread on the main AE forum has dealt with navigable rivers.  Page 37 of the manual has a screenshot of all the terrain types (also found on map, top right hand corner), including how a navigable river is depicted.  Are all the map mods using the same visual identifier, and then how easy is it for a new player to associate the page 37 depiction with whatever is present in that particular map mod.

All new players should just get on top of the standard game mechanics first before even contemplating any additional complexity.  Learn the various relationships first manually before using any third party software which by being automated, tends to obscure the relationships.


Amen to that and amen again. I almost literally grind my teeth every time I read a post in which an AE veteran sends a brand new player off to get map mod X or (worse) game mod Y. Congratulations, you've now made it almost impossible for a new player to correlate depictions in the manual with those he's seeing on-screen.

And speaking of grinding things, grinding gears is a wake-up call that you are not paying enough attention to your driving. [;)]



rockmedic109 -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 2:47:56 PM)

Good luck finding a stick anymore. I've only owned standard trans trucks till 2017. Then, I could not find a truck with options I wanted that did not have an automatic transmission. I read somewhere that the percentage of vehicles sold with standard transmissions in U.S. is now slightly less than 5%.

I've never used Intel Monkey or Tracker. I tried Intel Monkey once and fumbled the install and deleted it without trying again. I figure it would've been a nice to have, but not a need to have. I've stopped using signint for the most part. When the allied sigint screen notifies me that radio transmissions have been detected at Vancouver, I had a vision of a Japanese sleeper agent blending in as a used car salesman in Canada and passing along vital secrets on the Canadian fishing industry. Subs would make more sense but since I had no sub attacks, nothing spotted in the nets or washing ashore, I wrote that off and went with the Japanese spy story.



BBfanboy -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/30/2019 7:01:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse



Alfred

quote:

I have never met an individual who learnt to drive and pass their manual drivers licence test who was incapable of driving an auto transmission car.  Whereas I have met many who only learnt on an auto transmission car and possess only an auto transmission drivers licence who have no idea how to drive a manual transmission car.  Some of these auto drivers can't even do a kangaroo hop at the traffic lights.


quote:


Alfred,
Your automatic-manual analogy is spot-on. I've been driving a 'stick' for 30+ years. But for the benefit of those of us who learned our driving slang stateside, what on earth is a "kangaroo hop"?



That sounds like standing on the brake and revving the engine and engaging the clutch just enough to make the rear end rise up; release and repeat to make the hop. I think that only works if you have a rear wheel drive, manual transmission vehicle.

In defence of the automatic tranny - in a country like Canada where ice and snow are present up to six months of the year and many country roads are loose gravel, there is a lot of benefit to having the modern technology that senses slippage and applies power in a manner to keep the vehicle from spinning out. I am not sure if a manual transmission vehicle can do that.
Besides, it's easier to use your cell phone while driving if the transmission is automatic! [;)][8|]



floydg -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/31/2019 4:34:09 PM)



quote:

Tracker reads the complete saved files to provide the same information as does AE in its various information screens. The only real difference is that because it obtains its data directly from the saved files, there is no Fog of War ("FOW") present in Tracker and therefore it's information is 100% accurate. If a player sets up AE to play with FOW turned off, then he too would receive 100% accurate information. It is remarkable how almost every player chooses to play AE with FOW turned on but then sees no inconsistency with using a third party program which completely negates the point of selecting FOW on in the first place.


There are two FOW areas that I am aware of that are presented in WitPTracker:
- aircraft losses
- sunk ships

For the aircraft losses, the exact number and distribution (air-to-air, flak, etc) are from the save file. It's not clear (to me) how the game presents this FOW aspect, so we just present what's in the save file. I don't know what else to do here, but I don't see this as a major FOW factor.

For the ship losses, the save file has specific attributes for reporting FOW information. If the ship is on the other "side", I carefully present this information (false reports of sinking, delay in report of sinking, reporting another ship sunk in its place). I spent a good amount of time on that code, so if it's not working, I can try to fix it.

I am not aware of anything else that could compromise FOW by using WitPTracker.

Floyd



Trugrit -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/31/2019 6:28:24 PM)


I have seen a slight difference in the numbers for air loss.
I don't think it makes a big difference in the game.

The picture below is with Fog of War turned on.


[image]local://upfiles/49386/02E3946AD1CD45789F7222EA6B931C0D.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/7/2020 1:55:27 PM)

Once I seriously decided to try Japan, I set up Intel Monkey to see how the research was going. As Allies, I never used it.

I learned on an automatic, then I learned to use a manual transmission. Due to health reasons, I will stay with the automatic. I would drive at 70+ mph every few months or so. My father taught me that you had to rev the engine to help keep it clean by burning out the carbon.



LGKMAS -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/12/2020 6:29:08 AM)

Senior moment folks! I know there is somewhere on the forum an Italian (Spanish??) fansite that has a large number of WitP-AE topics summarised (in English!) My google-fu has deserted me and I cannot find it among my histories. I thought I had downloaded it but it does not show up anywhere. It was about 160 pages long, if my failing memory hasn't completely deserted me. Any leads?

regards



LGKMAS -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/12/2020 7:33:43 AM)

Stop looking, I found it. Though why I saved it in that particular file is beyond me! yet another senior moment I suppose!



witpqs -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/12/2020 4:08:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Once I seriously decided to try Japan, I set up Intel Monkey to see how the research was going. As Allies, I never used it.

I learned on an automatic, then I learned to use a manual transmission. Due to health reasons, I will stay with the automatic. I would drive at 70+ mph every few months or so. My father taught me that you had to rev the engine to help keep it clean my burning out the carbon.

I believe that was to blow out part of the carburetor. Not sure if more modern carburetors need it, but fuel injected engines like many are now don't need it.



BBfanboy -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/12/2020 4:41:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Once I seriously decided to try Japan, I set up Intel Monkey to see how the research was going. As Allies, I never used it.

I learned on an automatic, then I learned to use a manual transmission. Due to health reasons, I will stay with the automatic. I would drive at 70+ mph every few months or so. My father taught me that you had to rev the engine to help keep it clean my burning out the carbon.

I believe that was to blow out part of the carburetor. Not sure if more modern carburetors need it, but fuel injected engines like many are now don't need it.

I understood it to be actual carbon from oil and poorly burnt gasoline. In the old days the combustion chamber was sealed from the oil splashing around by the piston rings and molybdenum metal walls of the cylinder. Over time the rings and cylinder wall wore down and oil would get into the combustion chamber. Time for a ring job and maybe a cylinder re-bore and lining.

I have never seen a modern engine require a ring job or re-bore, nor have I seen one emitting blue/black oil smoke. So your point about not needing to blow out carbon might be valid, but I wonder about residue from other fuel additives or dissolved dirt in the gasoline.



witpqs -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/12/2020 6:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Once I seriously decided to try Japan, I set up Intel Monkey to see how the research was going. As Allies, I never used it.

I learned on an automatic, then I learned to use a manual transmission. Due to health reasons, I will stay with the automatic. I would drive at 70+ mph every few months or so. My father taught me that you had to rev the engine to help keep it clean my burning out the carbon.

I believe that was to blow out part of the carburetor. Not sure if more modern carburetors need it, but fuel injected engines like many are now don't need it.

I understood it to be actual carbon from oil and poorly burnt gasoline. In the old days the combustion chamber was sealed from the oil splashing around by the piston rings and molybdenum metal walls of the cylinder. Over time the rings and cylinder wall wore down and oil would get into the combustion chamber. Time for a ring job and maybe a cylinder re-bore and lining.

I have never seen a modern engine require a ring job or re-bore, nor have I seen one emitting blue/black oil smoke. So your point about not needing to blow out carbon might be valid, but I wonder about residue from other fuel additives or dissolved dirt in the gasoline.

Beats me. You're way beyond my knowledge.



ITAKLinus -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/13/2020 12:47:15 PM)

[OT: SORRY BUT I CANNOT RESIST]
Manual transmission always. Even on small scooters, always preferred the manual transmission (my first vehicle has been a Vespa 125 from 1979...).

I like the control it gives you. And that feeling of "driving".

Also, on consumption, I might be dumb as hell but I tend to consume way more with the automatic than with the manual.


For large, straight, clean US roads, automatic makes perfect sense, for the tortuous Italian streets/roads I definitely prefer the manual transmission.


If you go on very bad terrain, also, being a very good manual driver gives you an edge. I have little experience with the automatic, but I wouldn't be able to negotiate terrains such as the ones in which I work in Africa.
This is a main road [:D]:
[:D][:D][:D]

[image]local://upfiles/59041/F79952C47D6D4410AD5C9188B57C11E2.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (1/13/2020 2:46:54 PM)

The blowing out of carbon was before modern computer control with fuel injection. Fuel did not always burn completely and would leave carbon residue behind in the cylinders and on the spark plugs.

Automatic with cruise control for me. Bone spurs on my right foot with a partial amputation. It would be too painful to drive for hours otherwise - too much pain and I am not a safe driver. Besides, most of that would be the same speed on a nice highway. In congested traffic, I do not use cruise control.



sajm0n -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (5/2/2020 9:33:29 PM)

this really should be a sticky thread btw[:)]



RangerJoe -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (11/30/2020 12:08:57 PM)

Another bump for the sale,



RangerJoe -> RE: Useful Info for Beginners (12/28/2020 8:02:33 PM)

Bump it again.



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.3125