RE: German and Soviet TOE (Full Version)

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Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 8:43:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Chill out lads, chill out... ;) As the bloke@the Death Star, Moff Jerjerrod, said: "We shall double our efforts!"


Aye Polkovnik Klink. [8D]



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 8:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Colin,

thanks for the answer. I am aware of the "paper strength" and the KStN... Wouldn't it be at least a tad easier for the scenario designers to have those in one XLS or MDB file? Same for the OOB of certain campaigns. Let's presume I want to create a battle of a vital sector on the Ostfront... E.g. State Farm 79, one of the battles along the Chir. Forces involved, maybe one Coprs each, unit size, Battalion. There are plenty of larger scale scenarios where I see, ok. 17.Pz Div, 100 Sqds, yada, yada.. We know the OOB or the organisation of that unit and split it up into the Rgt, Btl, Abt.
That was my idea behind it. :)

Klink

I think that would be very useful to have. The hard work is summing up the available -- and conflicting -- information and converting it accurately into TOAW editor terms.



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 9:18:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Colin,

thanks for the answer. I am aware of the "paper strength" and the KStN... Wouldn't it be at least a tad easier for the scenario designers to have those in one XLS or MDB file? Same for the OOB of certain campaigns. Let's presume I want to create a battle of a vital sector on the Ostfront... E.g. State Farm 79, one of the battles along the Chir. Forces involved, maybe one Coprs each, unit size, Battalion. There are plenty of larger scale scenarios where I see, ok. 17.Pz Div, 100 Sqds, yada, yada.. We know the OOB or the organisation of that unit and split it up into the Rgt, Btl, Abt.
That was my idea behind it. :)

Klink

I think that would be very useful to have. The hard work is summing up the available -- and conflicting -- information and converting it accurately into TOAW editor terms.


It might be more useful if it was unconverted. There are several different theories about how to represent things in TOAW. What I'm saying is that (this is intended for illustrative purposes and is not based on any data at all) that rather than seeing

'Russian Rifle Regiment 1942: 108 Rifle Squads, 36 Med.MG, 12 50 mm mortars, 12 82 mm mortars, 4 76 mm ER guns, 4 45 mm AT guns, four wagons...'

It could be more helpful to have...

'Russian Rifle Regiment 1942: 3108 men, organized into three battalions of three rifle companies and one MG company each. Total arms: 2943 Model whatever bolt-action rifles, 384 Ppsh-39 submachine guns, 123 Model __ machine guns, 38 model __ machine guns...etc.

Usually, Neihorster et al serve quite nicely to resolve any questions about how all this was arranged. For example, 36 of the thirty eight medium MG's will turn out to be in the machine gun companies, while 2 of them might be with the 76 mm field gun battery.

Point is, I'd probably represent the 36 MG's and leave out the 2. Curtis LeMay would probably put in all 38. We both should have the raw data that permits us to apply our theories of how to represent things in TOAW.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 9:59:42 PM)

Thanks Brian!

Support is what ye'ole lad needs. What I have to figure out are... the different import/export functions and filters for the scenario XML dump. I managed to import, filter, remove the non relevant stuff to show you an example how it MIGHT look/work. If I find out, manage, how to export it into a scenario XML again, the scenario designer would just copy/paste and use Notepad++ or Excel to edit the OOB, forces and the rest via the editor in TOAW.

See attched screenshot -> One can filter for the parents HQ, the attached units, the lot...
The cell NAME12 is the parent HQ, in this case the II. SS PzK, NAME18 is the for the units attached to it... etc etc

[image]local://upfiles/28259/3DA77E74C3F2435AB3C5EDB8048079B1.jpg[/image]



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 10:10:41 PM)

I'm being a killjoy, but...

In my experience, if a unit is set at 90% proficiency, it will prove reluctant to break off attacks.

I remember playing Fall Grau -- a hypothetical invasion of North America. Anything that went to 90% or more proficiency was effectively only useful for defense. Put it into an attack -- and watch your turn end.

Better to go with 85% and drop everyone else by 5%.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 10:26:14 PM)

I basically agree -- 90% proficiency units behave erratically.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 10:27:28 PM)

Wouldn't it be more straightforward to just set up model units in the editor and save the unit files? They could then be downloaded and imported into TOAW like lego blocks.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 10:42:06 PM)

Gents... it was just an example I used from the Frozen Steppes 42-43 scenario... I am not a developer or coder... I am just trying to make it easier for the lads who spend hours just looking for OOB etc...



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 11:16:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

... I am just trying to make it easier for the lads who spend hours just looking for OOB etc...


But that's the fun part. Looking for oob.



Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 12:14:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

... I am just trying to make it easier for the lads who spend hours just looking for OOB etc...


But that's the fun part. Looking for oob.


[:D] You are certifiably insane.

Looking for TO&E for anything under brigade for Soviet units has been an exercise in frustration.



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 12:32:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

... I am just trying to make it easier for the lads who spend hours just looking for OOB etc...


But that's the fun part. Looking for oob.


[:D] You are certifiably insane.

Looking for TO&E for anything under brigade for Soviet units has been an exercise in frustration.


Nonsense. It's a challenge. Don't you like challenges?

There's Neihorster, and there's Glantz. No problem -- or at any rate, no worse than the Commonwealth.

Real problem is determining just how far off units are from the TO&E. For example, at one point in the Summer of 1942, the 'Fourth Tank Army' was jokingly known as the 'four tank army.' That was a fairly accurate count for a while.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 1:40:51 AM)

In my latest elmer-to-elmer playtest, the Soviets basically wiped the Axis off the map in the last third of the game. Possibly not inaccurate. However, it has me looking at the re-allocation of forces on the Axis side at the time.

It would seem that 11th army under Manstein was deployed to Leningrad after victory at Sevastopol. And then, in late 1942, it was disbanded and its divisions scattered among AGC and AGS (two of its divisions already enter this scenario as reinforcements).

Is it plausible that in a "Moscow first" strategy, 11th army would be re-assigned in say October 1942 to AGC, rather than (mostly, in pieces) to AGS?

If so, then the following would deploy to this theater, seems like:

HQ AOK11 Manstein

L corps Kleffel
50th
225th
45th
SS-Norway

LIV corps Hansen
250-Spanish
SS-Polizei

XXVI corps von Leyser
170th
22th
5-gebirgs

XXX corps Fretter-Pico
24th
132nd

Would probably balance the back half of the scenario somewhat.



r6kunz -> Soviet TOE & strength (12/1/2010 3:40:48 AM)

  It looks like we are getting there as far as German TOE (well, to the point we are grognard nit-picking stage?).

  A much bigger question, and with a much greater impact on game play, balance and ultimately, modeling, is the Soviet side.   Soviet TOE (Shtat) is less complicated-Zaloga The Red Army Handbook, as well as Nigel Askey, cited above, give reasonably precise numbers for the various Shtat of 1941-2.   But what percent fill for these emergently raised divisions, as well as force parameters? Any ideas?  David Glantz and others have made various references to 50 to 70% strength.  Most of the Soviet divisions in September 1941 were either worn-down veteran, or hastily formed units.  And what about proficiencies? Alex aka AMVAS at his RKKA project site, gives specific tank strengths, but not so specific concerning rifle division strengths:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/

I think member input concerning references/opinions/gut level feelings would be welcomed.



Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 4:05:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

... I am just trying to make it easier for the lads who spend hours just looking for OOB etc...


But that's the fun part. Looking for oob.


[:D] You are certifiably insane.

Looking for TO&E for anything under brigade for Soviet units has been an exercise in frustration.


Nonsense. It's a challenge. Don't you like challenges?

There's Neihorster, and there's Glantz. No problem -- or at any rate, no worse than the Commonwealth.

Real problem is determining just how far off units are from the TO&E. For example, at one point in the Summer of 1942, the 'Fourth Tank Army' was jokingly known as the 'four tank army.' That was a fairly accurate count for a while.



I'm very familiar with Leo's site. No TO&E for the things I need. Glantz's books all cost money which is in short supply at the time. Not sure if his has TO&E for what I need anyway. Asked for info in the RKKA forums. That was of some help. [;)]

I did finally get a lead on Soviet engineers. Again, no TO&E. I think to find the TO&E for all the different units would cost more money than I could possibly justify for a scenario.

In the year+ that I've been researching I've compiled well over 100 web sites. Collected the information for all the air forces and all units from company to Front. What's missing are the TO&E for some things. It's getting to where I feel I may have to make things up. I hate to do that though. I prefer some kind of historical accuracy.

The Soviet side of things is a real mess of conflicting information. Like I said earlier, you have to settle on one thing and go with it. Otherwise you end up going in circles.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 4:09:56 AM)

quote:

Is it plausible that in a "Moscow first" strategy, 11th army would be re-assigned in say October 1942 to AGC, rather than (mostly, in pieces) to AGS?


I think L and XXVI Corps would have remained as part of 18th Army at Leningrad in order to fight of the Soviet counter attacks there. Those corps weren't part of 11th Army in the Crimea.

The original 11th Army had XXXXII Corps (which was left in the Crimea after Sevastopol fell), and XXX and LIV Corps, which moved to Leningrad initially but only with four divisions as others were needed to shore up defenses elsewhere.

So I am thinkiing that the deployment of the 11th Army solely to AGC might not have been possible, considering that many of its divisions were needed elsewhere. Maybe in 9-42 just the XXX Corps could be given to AGC with the 72nd Inf, 170th Inf, 28th Leichte, and 22nd Panzer Divisions?



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 4:15:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Is it plausible that in a "Moscow first" strategy, 11th army would be re-assigned in say October 1942 to AGC, rather than (mostly, in pieces) to AGS?


I think L and XXVI Corps would have remained as part of 18th Army at Leningrad in order to fight of the Soviet counter attacks there. Those corps weren't part of 11th Army in the Crimea.

The original 11th Army had XXXXII Corps (which was left in the Crimea after Sevastopol fell), and XXX and LIV Corps, which moved to Leningrad initially but only with four divisions as others were needed to shore up defenses elsewhere.

So I am thinkiing that the deployment of the 11th Army solely to AGC might not have been possible, considering that many of its divisions were needed elsewhere. Maybe in 9-42 just the XXX Corps could be given to AGC with the 72nd Inf, 170th Inf, 28th Leichte, and 22nd Panzer Divisions?


22nd Panzer wound up as a reserve for AGS. Very low on tanks, anyway -- 40 at the end of June, as I recall. Mostly Pz-38's, to boot.



r6kunz -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 4:44:16 AM)

Brian, (re: Posts your #255) Looks very good.

Re: LMG, MMG and HMG.

I would reiterate discussions in Posts #224, #226 and #238 re: LMG, MMG, HMG.
Like Colin, I would not have any TOAW HMG: I use the MMG for the MG34 in the heavy weapons platoon/company. That leaves the issue of the second MG34 in the Heavy Rifle Squad (both have a two man crew, often belt fed). I have used the formula of 70% the number of rifle squads for the number of additional MMG. (I believe it was Colin who used a similar formula on a long lost Forum topic).

A similar discussion would apply not using HMG in the Infantry division.
I appreciate this is a designer decision and a case could be made for any organization.
(edited to address to Brian, Post #255)



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 7:17:16 AM)

Well:

L corps Kleffel stayed with 18. Armee
50th stayed with HG A
225th moved to II Korps 16. Armee in January 1943
45th already on map
SS-Norway not sure I think it stay in front of Leningrad till dissolving in May 1943

LIV corps Hansen stayed with 18. Armee
250-Spanish stayed with 18. Armee
SS-Polizei stayed with 18. Armee

XXVI corps von Leyser stayed with 18. Armee
170th stayed with 18. Armee
22th moved out of theater in, on 1st August 12. Armee in Greece
5-gebirgs stayed with 18. Armee

XXX corps Fretter-Pico moved to 9. Armee in December 1942(OK latter to the south but without Stalingrad there seems no need to go south)
24th stayed with 18. Armee
132n stayed with 18. Armee


My idea to beef up the HG Mitte is to check how many divisions Italy, Romania, Hungary & Slovakia send in 1942(additional to the ones already in the front) and for 3-4 of these divisions you could pull out a German division, either one that stayed with HG Süd the whole time or a new division that was intended as reinforcement to HG Süd.
-Romania... unfortunately I couldn't find out how many division they send, it also seems they also rotated some out of the theater so I can't get a clear picture of how much surplus compared to 1941 is there, has anyone a good source for infos about them?
-Hungary send 10 of these 3 are already in the game so 2 German divisions could be pulled out.
-Italy send 6 divisions, 3 brigades & 1 security division, again 2 German divisions could be pulled out.
-Slovakia did not sent any additional units in 1942.
Well 4 divisions not much but I bet Romania send a bunch of divisions maybe we get another 4 out making it a total of 8, not sure if these should come in or be available as reinforcements by using TOs.
Still not much but there is the 225th that can come in for the 16. Armee and one could think about an additional Hungarian Korps "to keep contact with HG Süd" for the southern edge.

BTW in the Elmer test play did the German side used the reinforcement options at all?

Also I think the German side needs a capable player to keep the Russians at bay I'm not sure if Elmer is good in the style that is needed to achieve this so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
If H2H show the same that it could be a problem but even than would it really be(Moscowgrad)?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 7:45:40 AM)

quote:

Romania... has anyone a good source for infos about them?


Don't know how 'good' it is considered, but we used this site for most of their oob in D21:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/

quote:

Also I think the German side needs a capable player to keep the Russians at bay ...


This is true as the Axis have limited units to cover the front and has to do some strategic juggling in order to hold any line. That's not something that Elmer can do (yet!).



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 12:55:23 PM)

Big duke -- excellent research and very interesting. In the run I did yesterday I activated all of the emergency reserves except 22 & 23 pz. I agree Elmer is no Manstein and I don't mind leaving the game balance as an overwhelming challenge to thevsoviets in 1941 and to the axis in 1943 . That's the core attraction of this theatre. Just want both oobs to be historically plausible and without glaring omissions. We are theorizing here that ags is standing on it's April 1942 line and will not conduct Blau. So if the rumanians, italians and hungarians are featheredvinto the line, I guess what that would do isvfree up a corps from aok6 and perhaps elements of 1pzg to push towards, say, Voronezh?

Kunz -- I agree on hmgs.





ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 7:36:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Brian, (re: Posts your #255) Looks very good.

Re: LMG, MMG and HMG.

I would reiterate discussions in Posts #224, #226 and #238 re: LMG, MMG, HMG.
Like Colin, I would not have any TOAW HMG: I use the MMG for the MG34 in the heavy weapons platoon/company. That leaves the issue of the second MG34 in the Heavy Rifle Squad (both have a two man crew, often belt fed). I have used the formula of 70% the number of rifle squads for the number of additional MMG. (I believe it was Colin who used a similar formula on a long lost Forum topic).

A similar discussion would apply not using HMG in the Infantry division.
I appreciate this is a designer decision and a case could be made for any organization.
(edited to address to Brian, Post #255)



I actually use a 'Schutzen' squad I created with the bio-editor to handle those two-MG squads in the Panzer division schutzen regiments and such. An AP strength of 5, as I recall.

The bio-editor is a wonderful thing. Once you get the hang of it, it takes about five minutes to implement your latest inspiration, and with TOAW III, it imposes no burden to speak on on the players, so...



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/1/2010 7:46:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Romania... has anyone a good source for infos about them?


Don't know how 'good' it is considered, but we used this site for most of their oob in D21:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/




I like that site. Unlike certain 'national' sites, its claims are relatively restrained, which suggests a likelihood that the material contained therein is likely to be similarly accurate.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 1:32:23 AM)

Here is the latest build of this.

A summary of changes since first posted (as far as I can remember):

- Axis infantry & armour TO&E is re-executed.
- Soviet infantry TO&E is re-executed.
- Axis units redeployed to more closely comply with the real situation map.
- German tank park and production is revised.
- German and Soviet OOBs have been tweaked and revised.
- Relative effectiveness of German and Soviet air units adjusted.
- A mechanism is implemented to revise German panzer unit TO&Es about a third of the way through the scenario.
- Some theatre events come and go (spring 1942 resupply is hardwired; a couple of additional optional panzer divisions are available in the late spring of 1942; a theatre event allows you to avoid a victory point penalty by withdrawing 10-panzer and sending it to Tunis).
- Various errors that slipped into the events are fixed, refixed and rerefixed.
- Axis stop line is revised [I need to look at the southern stretch of that line again].
- Weather events are tweaked.
- Victory conditions are tweaked and described in the end of game text.
- Rail repair is revised and Axis gets more accurate complement of pioneers.

Some issues that need looking into:
- Axis flak units need a second look.
- Need to consider plausible transfers from AGN and AGS in back third of the scenario.
- Some details of the heavy equipment deployment and production need to be ironed out.

Almost all of these edits are informed by the discussion above, for which I am very grateful. I'll add some specific credits to collaborators in the notes shortly. I think this is getting closer to being serviceable --




BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 6:29:13 AM)

Great! [sm=Cool-049.gif]

Maybe something for the time when everything else is done but I thought I mention it already.
What about the empty text fields(for example 0,98)? Do they have a purpose or could they be erased?



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 9:06:50 AM)

I just had an idea to smooth the drastically Panzer units changes a bit.
What I and I guess you too don't like is that the units withdraw so any level of equipment your reach rather high or low will be reset as the new units come in already filled with equipment, that is somehow "disconnecting" to what the player achieve up to this point.
So what if you disband the old units and let their material fill up the new units?
OK we would still have some kind of reset has the units would fill evenly but its better than nothing.
Regarding the problem that it will take time to fill up the new units, I would let them appear even more earlier than now maybe 8-10 turns and set the replacement priority higher that the old unit it replaces, in that way the new unit should already begin to fill up as it gets more than the old unit.

Problem is if the old units are disbanded by an event but are marked to Reconstitute will they appear again?



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 2:40:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Great! [sm=Cool-049.gif]

Maybe something for the time when everything else is done but I thought I mention it already.
What about the empty text fields(for example 0,98)? Do they have a purpose or could they be erased?


These are ghost events I killed -- a few not cleaned up properly. I'll do a cleanup shortly



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 2:46:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I just had an idea to smooth the drastically Panzer units changes a bit.
What I and I guess you too don't like is that the units withdraw so any level of equipment your reach rather high or low will be reset as the new units come in already filled with equipment, that is somehow "disconnecting" to what the player achieve up to this point.
So what if you disband the old units and let their material fill up the new units?
OK we would still have some kind of reset has the units would fill evenly but its better than nothing.
Regarding the problem that it will take time to fill up the new units, I would let them appear even more earlier than now maybe 8-10 turns and set the replacement priority higher that the old unit it replaces, in that way the new unit should already begin to fill up as it gets more than the old unit.

Problem is if the old units are disbanded by an event but are marked to Reconstitute will they appear again?


I dont love the mechanism although it isn't entirely ahitorical. Most of these regiments were almost entirely devoid of battle-ready runners by late March 1942, and were essentially rebuilt from scratch. So withdrawing the old shells and replacing them with new ones kind of looks like what happened. In the latest build I did move this event backwards a few turns, earlier in the spring 1942 "mud ceasefire".

They do rebuild if disbanded -- the basic problem with the withdraw event alternative.



Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 3:10:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp


They do rebuild if disbanded -- the basic problem with the withdraw event alternative.


If someone is concerned about losing equipment when withdrawing a unit that is to be returned later why not disband it with one event and withdraw it in a later event?



Telumar -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 6:31:54 PM)

Why not to set it to not reconstitute..? [:D]



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (12/3/2010 6:40:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Why not to set it to not reconstitute..? [:D]

Well that would be an option too, if those panzer units shrink so much it maybe would be better if they don't reconstitute so you have fewer units but with at least some combat worth.



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