RE: 1.59 (Full Version)

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briantopp -> RE: 1.59 (11/27/2010 9:27:52 PM)

Here is another build of this scenario. Very grateful for any comments.

New:

I've tried to implement new Axis infantry TO&Es consistent with the "wave" information and AT issues discussed above.

Broke out sicherung divisions into their component units and tried to rejig the Axis PO orders so that it garrisons its rear area more effectively.

Corrected 29-motorised corps designation. Corrected some artillery units.

Revisited equipment editor to tweak equipment transitions. Tweaked relative supply balances.

To come:

Very interesting discussion of pz TO&Es above. I'm going to post my interpretation of it and see if it makes sense before trying to implement it.










briantopp -> aufklarungs/kradschutzen (11/27/2010 10:00:06 PM)

So I last looked at these TO&Es a looong time ago. Here is what the scenario currently has, and what I can make of the discussion above so far:

Current aufklarungs (scout) and kradschutzen (motorcycle) units (basically, I averaged them, and use different unit symbols. very unsatisfactory):

27 motorcycle
6 engineer
16 sdkfz 231-6
6 MMG
6 37mm AT
6 50mm AT
2 75mm gun
30 truck

What I can make of the suggested kradschutzen battalion:

68 motorcycle
3 37mm AT
2 75mm gun
1 light infantry
6 82mm mortar
Presumably 10 trucks or so?
What I can make of the suggested aufkalrungs:
16 sdkfz 221
3 231
3 232
Does this seem correct?



briantopp -> panzerjager (11/27/2010 10:02:05 PM)

Current TO&E:

5 smg
18 37mm AT
12 50mm AT
6 75mm AT
30 trucks
0/10 marder II/III

Suggested:

18 light infantry
20 quad 20mm AA
8 20mm AA
24 37mm AT
9 50mm AT




briantopp -> schutzen (11/27/2010 10:04:44 PM)

Current:

72 rifle
20 smg
8 engineer
24 20mm spaag
9 stum III41
12 halftrack 81mm
8 37mm AT
8 50mm AT
12 mmg
12 hmg
31 halftrack
140 trucks
0/8 marder II/III

Suggested:

124 heavy infantry
11 engineer
3 light infantry
7 75mm inf gun
7 150mm inf gun
15 82mm mortar
140 trucks or so?



briantopp -> artillery (11/27/2010 10:06:07 PM)

Current:

24 105mm howitzer
12 150mm howitzer
9 20mm spaag
5 smg
5 halftracks
40 trucks

Suggested:

24 105 mm howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
18 light rifles
36 trucks?



ColinWright -> RE: artillery (11/27/2010 10:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp

Current:

24 105mm howitzer
12 150mm howitzer
9 20mm spaag
5 smg
5 halftracks
40 trucks

Suggested:

24 105 mm howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
18 light rifles
36 trucks?



You'll get maximum speed with 22 trucks in the first example and 27 trucks in the second. I'm not sure what the exact formula is -- there seems to be some variation -- but one truck for every two pieces that don't already move at the motorized rate will max out your movement rate. However, you do need one horse team for every one piece to be moved to max out.

I've gone over to putting in light rifles myself -- if the artillery is in a unit by itself. Else quite unrealistic things will happen if enemy units break into your artillery park.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: panzerjager (11/27/2010 10:29:06 PM)

I was just starting to look at the PanzerJager units. Usually I start here for a good general idea:

http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/pzjgabt.htm

So far I had only looked into the '616-mot.AT' of the 4th Panzer Group. It had the fine Czech 47mm mounted on the Pz I chassis. This looks like the PanzerJager I in the TOAW tank equipment. The unit would have an establishment of 27 of them, and going by an online TO&E, it had nothing else but some command cars and messengers. This unit had the same organization thru the timeframe of this scenario.

PzJg I production/conversion had stopped in Feb. 1941 but remained in service into 1943. A few other Abt's in addition to the 616th had them. I can look thru some more if you like.



r6kunz -> German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 2:25:35 AM)

Here is a  helpful site that has a lot of information by Nigel Askey ,“who has worked as a consultant for Talansoft Inc, on war games in their Campaign Series. The Campaign Series were tactical-operational military simulations of which the most well known are ‘East Front’ and ‘East Front II’.” His website is a preview of a book he is authoring: Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Statistical Collation and Military Simulation,


http://operationbarbarossa.net/
It includes TOE lists that are almost “TOAW ready”, and have served as the basis for RtM TOE.  Has anyone else had a look at this site?  



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 4:17:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Here is a  helpful site that has a lot of information by Nigel Askey ,“who has worked as a consultant for Talansoft Inc, on war games in their Campaign Series. The Campaign Series were tactical-operational military simulations of which the most well known are ‘East Front’ and ‘East Front II’.” His website is a preview of a book he is authoring: Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Statistical Collation and Military Simulation,


http://operationbarbarossa.net/
It includes TOE lists that are almost “TOAW ready”, and have served as the basis for RtM TOE.  Has anyone else had a look at this site?  


That's a very good panzer division to&e -- very different than what we've been discussing here to date! And as you say, almost toaw-ready. I'll try a translation tomorrow and post here.



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 11:56:10 AM)

Really? At least the Panzer Regiment looks close to what I've posted.
45 Pz II(February 1941) or 51(November 1941)
71 Pz III
28 Pz IV
6 PzBefWg
They just differ a bit because he include the Staffel for each Abteilung, question is should they be included?




samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 12:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Really? At least the Panzer Reginment looks close to what I've posted.
45 Pz II(February 1941) or 51(November 1941)
71 Pz III
28 Pz IV
6 PzBefWg
They just differ a bit because he include the Staffel for each Abteilung, question is should they be included?




I figure they were with the division at the front, and so were bound to end up being used. I've found many examples even of the training battalion ending up in action quite early in the war, so why not these tanks?[:)]

On a related note, when the PzBefWg were upgraded to the Pz III chassis, did they keep their main gun? If so it might be proper to add six more Pz III's to the division.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 3:59:42 PM)

Usually the command vehicles had the main guns removed to make room for radios.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 4:23:35 PM)

I guess this would qualify as a grognard point: 82mm mortars are shown in the toaw equipment editor as soviet equipment. The germansvused 81mm, seems like?



samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 4:27:00 PM)

About the mortars: if that's what it says, then that's what it is. I just plucked 82mm from memory without checking it.



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 5:13:29 PM)

Righto many thanks



briantopp -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 5:22:54 PM)

Here is askey's take on a pz division, reformatted a little and omitting a few ants:

Scout:

Motorcycle 26
Engineer 3
sdk 247 2
260/261 5
230/231 6
221A 8
222 8
263 4
253 3
LMG 19
HMG 2
50mm mort 19
81 mm mort 2
37mm AT 3
75mm gun 2
Trucks

Motorcycle bn:

Motorcycle 61
Engineer 3
260 2
LMG 55
HMG 14
50mm mort 9
81 mm mort 6
37mm AT 3
75mm gun 2
Trucks

panzerjager:

Motorcycle 8
LMG 18
37mm AT 24
50mm AT 9
Light halftrack 15
260/261 2
Trucks

Artillery:

LMG 22
Motorcycle 20
Halftrack 45
253 22
105mm how. 24
150 mm how. 12
Truck
Horse

panzer bn:

pzI (as discussed above)
pzII
pzIII
pzIV
LMG 12
motorcycle 13
engineer 4
skd 251 1
Halftracks 11

Schutzen regiment (includes half of pioneer bn):

Heavy inf 54
Engineer 18
Motorcycle 24
LMG 56
HMG 28
50mm mort 18
81mm mort 12
37mm AT 6
75mm hun 4
skd 250 26
sdk 251 77
Trucks



samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 7:21:19 PM)

The layout of your Pz.Div really depends on how detailed you want to be. The Pz.Rgt is fairly standard, according to Dr. Leo, but the infantry Rgt.'s have varying amounts of armored infantry in there, and the AT and Recon units vary quite a lot in some cases.

The symbol for the armored car units often have a letter inside them, which is not always the same. Unfortunately, i have not been able to figure out what they mean yet. Maybe someone here knows?

What i do know, is that the unit symbols are the same for all the different armored cars, and that the armament of the vehicles is shown underneath in the same way as for an infantry unit. Thus, 7th Pz.Div has two companies of armored cars with 24 37mm guns and 26 LMG's each, while 1st Pz.Div has one company with 10 37mm's and 25 LMG's.



samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 8:39:33 PM)

It gets even more complicated if you go deeper. I asked around about some of the things i couldn't figure out:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=172397



sPzAbt653 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 8:56:07 PM)

How come there are no Anti Aircraft guns in any of the TO&E's?

Here are a few more PzJg's.

169th, with 2nd Panzer Army, 27 PzJg I's, disbanded 6-20-42 to form PzJgAbt of 17th Pz Div. [not in the scenario]
521st, went to AGS after Typhoon, but if it stays in BfM, 27 PzJg I's with 0/18 Marder II's (or swap out in 6-42). [24th pz 2pzG]
559th, with 4th Army, 27 PzJg I's, 6-28-42 re-equipped with 12 Marder II's and 24 towed 75 PAK's (could be swapped out). [57 pz 4pzG]
561st, with 9th Army, 18 PzJg I's plus 9 37mm AT guns. [27th corps AOK9]
611th, with 4th Panzer Group, 27 PzJg I's, June 1942 added 12 Marder II's and went to AGS. [35th corps 2pzG]
616th, with 4th Army, 27 PzJg I's. [4th panzer Group]
643rd, with LVI Corps 3rd Panzer Group, 27 PzJg I's. 3-26-42 becomes part of GD. [5th corps 3pzG]



samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 9:00:32 PM)

The infantry divisions don't show any organic AA assets. The Pz. divisions have a few AA half-tracks each. I guess most of the AA assets were in separate units at this point in the war.



samba_liten -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/28/2010 9:32:52 PM)

Ok... on 22/6-41 the 11th Army had:
Fla-Btl.22, Fla-Kp.1./47 (Heer)
and
Flak-Rgts.Stb.18, Flak-Abt.(gem.) I./14, I./43, I./64 (Luftwaffe)

My conclusion is that flak was an army level asset, and also that i have absolutely no idea where to find this info for the dates of the scenario in question. If you are interested, i can copy paste the rest of the flak assets for 22/6.



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/29/2010 12:56:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Ok... on 22/6-41 the 11th Army had:
Fla-Btl.22, Fla-Kp.1./47 (Heer)
and
Flak-Rgts.Stb.18, Flak-Abt.(gem.) I./14, I./43, I./64 (Luftwaffe)

My conclusion is that flak was an army level asset, and also that i have absolutely no idea where to find this info for the dates of the scenario in question. If you are interested, i can copy paste the rest of the flak assets for 22/6.



You can go hunting at http://www.ww2.dk/ . That information's organized in a rather impenetrable fashion, but it's there.

This will only cover the Luftwaffe flak units. For the Germans, bear in mind that there are Luftwaffe and Heer Flak units. Two different peoples... Usual tactical units are battalions, and they were generally assigned at the Corps level.

However, the Germans definitely did use flak extensively for ground support (particularly when enemy airpower wasn't a concern), and you definitely want to find it all.

As a note, starting in 1942, Flak units with 88's and 2cm guns were permanently assigned to all panzer divisions as a fourth battalion in the artillery regiment.



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 3:02:35 PM)

Some more small recommendations:
-Rename "3HunCorps 2PzG" to "3HunCorps AOK2" It never served with the 2.PzA.


-More info regarding 7,5cm Pak 97/38 & 7,5cm Pak 40:
***
A source(KTB Org.Abt. III) states this:
20.5.42 - "Bis Monatsende gingen in Durchführung o.(bigens) Programms folgende s.Pak an die Heeresgruppen ab:
Pak 40:
H.Gr. Süd - 280
Pak 97/38:
H.Gr. Süd - 342
H.Gr. Mitte - 295
H.Gr. Nord - 150

4.6.42 - "Die Zuführung .. konnte auf die folgenden Zahlen gesteigert werden"
Pak 40:
H.Gr. Süd - 360
Pak 97/38:
H.Gr. Süd - 425
H.Gr. Mitte - 295
H.Gr. Nord - 150

And a different entry states(in the diary 11.-20.7.42):"um den 20.7.42 herum wurde die "Festlegung der Verteilung des zweiten Tausends Pak 97/38" beschlossen"
***
So you see till June 870 7,5cm Pak 97/38 reach the troops in the east and that is already a bunch more than the 700 overall production some sources state, furthermore the other entry speaks about the second 1000 Pak 97/38 and how they should be allocated so Hahns(Fritz Hahn "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945" 1942=2854 & 1943=858) numbers for the 7,5cm Pak 97/38 seem much more realistic. Also interesting is that almost half of them were placed at HG Süd I guess this percentage should reach HG Mitte in this scenario.

***
"Überblick über den Rüstungszustand beim Heer"
Abnahmezahlen 7,5cm Pak 40 (in brackets, how many of these are with Räderlafette)

1942=2126
1 –
2 – 15 (3)
3 – 10 (10)
4 – 156 (156)
5 – 251 (251)
6 – 93 (20)
7 – 176 (33)
8 – 175
9 – 185 (347 ?? maybe 8-10 together)
10 – 307
11 – 290 (100)
12 – 468 (434)

1943=8740
1 – 500 (337)
2 – 551 (490)
3 – 610 (480)
4 – 651 (525)
5 – 700 (592)
6 – 751 (621)
7 – 800 (700)
8 – 850 (662)
9 – 800 (676)
10 – 950 (841)
11 – 645 (481)
12 – 932 (929)
***
Here you can see that the first were taken off in February 1942.

Bases on this info my recommendations are to lower the 7,5cm Pak 97/38 to 14 per turn and the 7,5cm Pak 40 should start in February(turn 37) with 22 per turn but only if none are allocated to the troops, looking at the scenario 1412 are already in the game so you should first pull them out of every unit that is on map or comes in before February 1942 and than see what is still allocated, subtracting these of the 1942 overall production should give you a good number for replacement per turn.


-What about the stop line for 1942?
I think the HG Nord would still stay more or less in place so the stop line near the map edge looks good also the south edge looks OK(I would prefer it a bit closer to the Don, at least the end should be at the Don river) as I don't think that HG Süd would/could keep pace with a new offensive in 1942 the Hungarian III Corps will already have problems pushing forward near the map edge(at least i hope so), but the center should be moved further east maybe even to the map edge.



Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 3:19:17 PM)

Unfortunately, you can look at six different sources and get six conflicting statistics. What has to be done is settle on one and stick with it. At least that's the conclusion I've come to.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 3:40:33 PM)

Lads,

the whole TO&E and OOB business, especially the various post in TOAW, SPWAW, etc forums dictates the following:

A comprehensive, MS Excel/Access based DB. I know it's not an easy undertaking, BUT... Those who're interested should contact me to exchange ideas about HOW to achieve it. The .XML export function for scenarios should make it a lot easier.

I am not a VBA or script geek, but macros or cross linking at Excel or Access I know. The DB could contain the various OOB and TO&E of the participating nations for a specific campaign period. I am still torturing my noggin about, which TO&E works best. E.g. The strentgh of the whole Division or divided into Regiments and the attached Abteilungen/Battalions?

Any feedback is more than welcome!

Klink



BigDuke66 -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 5:32:35 PM)

Well the KTB Org.Abt. III & "Überblick über den Rüstungszustand beim Heer" confirm Hahns numbers, that's 3 in a row so why should you stick with anything else?
Of course some more or some less don't really matter but if one source say 700 and another over 2850 alone for 1942 and that source is confirmed I would stick with it, wouldn't you too?



ColinWright -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 7:47:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Lads,

the whole TO&E and OOB business, especially the various post in TOAW, SPWAW, etc forums dictates the following:

A comprehensive, MS Excel/Access based DB. I know it's not an easy undertaking, BUT... Those who're interested should contact me to exchange ideas about HOW to achieve it. The .XML export function for scenarios should make it a lot easier.

I am not a VBA or script geek, but macros or cross linking at Excel or Access I know. The DB could contain the various OOB and TO&E of the participating nations for a specific campaign period. I am still torturing my noggin about, which TO&E works best. E.g. The strentgh of the whole Division or divided into Regiments and the attached Abteilungen/Battalions?

Any feedback is more than welcome!

Klink



Note that, particularly on the Eastern Front, units were rarely at T0&E.

For my own purposes, I'm interested in the southern sector in the Summer of 1942. Glancing down a list of unit 'fills' pulled from the interval July-Sept in the Don sector, we find only one Soviet unit with more than two-thirds of its theoretical manpower, while the Germans had managed to raise the fill of units assigned to Blau to an average about 85%.

Certainly figuring out how to represent the TO&E is a starting point -- but that's all it is. For example, with my Soviet Rifle Divisions, I set their authorized level at 2/3's of the theoretical TO&E -- after all, they rarely rose to more than that in the period I'm concerned with.

Then -- absent any other information -- I set the assigned equipment at 60% of that. Other information causes me to adjust that up or down or to adjust individual items of equipment for the particular division.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 8:06:00 PM)

Colin,

thanks for the answer. I am aware of the "paper strength" and the KStN... Wouldn't it be at least a tad easier for the scenario designers to have those in one XLS or MDB file? Same for the OOB of certain campaigns. Let's presume I want to create a battle of a vital sector on the Ostfront... E.g. State Farm 79, one of the battles along the Chir. Forces involved, maybe one Coprs each, unit size, Battalion. There are plenty of larger scale scenarios where I see, ok. 17.Pz Div, 100 Sqds, yada, yada.. We know the OOB or the organisation of that unit and split it up into the Rgt, Btl, Abt.
That was my idea behind it. :)

Klink



Panama -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 8:12:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well the KTB Org.Abt. III & "Überblick über den Rüstungszustand beim Heer" confirm Hahns numbers, that's 3 in a row so why should you stick with anything else?
Of course some more or some less don't really matter but if one source say 700 and another over 2850 alone for 1942 and that source is confirmed I would stick with it, wouldn't you too?


Geez dude, not arguing with you. Just sayin. [:D]



Oberst_Klink -> RE: German and Soviet TOE (11/30/2010 8:17:40 PM)

Chill out lads, chill out... ;) As the bloke@the Death Star, Moff Jerjerrod, said: "We shall double our efforts!"



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