Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE

Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE (Full Version)

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Oberst_Klink -> Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE (12/12/2010 6:02:32 PM)
There it is...

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Jagers and 328 (12/12/2010 7:57:37 PM)
Like others I have been following unit histories and here are a few for consideration: 328 Inf (39corps, 2pzG), arrives t80, 7-4-42, but historically arrived with 9th Army 4-42. It went to France 11 or 12-42, returned 6 or 9-43 (which is after the scenario ends). 5 Inf (5corps, 3pzG) was in the central sector with 5 corps, 9th Army until 11-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 5 leichte. Returned to 10 corp, 16 Army, 2-42, redesignated 5 jager 7-42, stayed in the Staraya Russa sector until 1944. In the scenario 5 Inf never leaves and 5 jager (55corp, 2pzG) arrives t80. 8 Inf (8corps, AOK9) part of 8 corp, 9th Army until 11 or 12-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 8 leichte, returned 3-42 and sent to 10 corp, 16 Army, redesignated 8 jager 6-42. In the scenario 8 Inf never leaves and 8 jager (59corps, AOK4) arrives t78 or 79. For both the 5th and 8th, the 'leichte' to 'jager' change appears to have been in name only, so maybe the original Infantry units can withdraw and the Jager versions can arrive later.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: sPzAbt.503 (12/12/2010 8:04:28 PM)
Tigers first arrived on the east front in 8-42 with sPzAbt.502, but were deployed in small numbers and had little effect. At the time of the Stalingrad crisis, available Tigers were organised into sPzAbt.503 and sent to AGS. Maybe in the scenario sPzAbt.503 can enter 1-3-43 (with the original organisation of 20 Tigers and 25 IIIn's). It didn't convert to the 45 Tiger organisation until 4-43. As the scenario ends around that time, it probably doesn't need to be represented. A suggestion: [image]local://upfiles/24850/8CC0B6341602408AA21A12087B871549.jpg[/image]

briantopp -> RE: Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE (12/12/2010 8:33:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink There it is... I like the new German and Russia chrome quite a lot. Just a small bit of regret you didn't work from the latest file so a number of edits (including a couple of tricky and time-consuming ones) aren't in the events. I'm going to do a little inventory of these and see how tricky it is to get this file up to date.

briantopp -> RE: Jagers and 328 (12/12/2010 9:31:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Like others I have been following unit histories and here are a few for consideration: 328 Inf (39corps, 2pzG), arrives t80, 7-4-42, but historically arrived with 9th Army 4-42. It went to France 11 or 12-42, returned 6 or 9-43 (which is after the scenario ends). 5 Inf (5corps, 3pzG) was in the central sector with 5 corps, 9th Army until 11-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 5 leichte. Returned to 10 corp, 16 Army, 2-42, redesignated 5 jager 7-42, stayed in the Staraya Russa sector until 1944. In the scenario 5 Inf never leaves and 5 jager (55corp, 2pzG) arrives t80. 8 Inf (8corps, AOK9) part of 8 corp, 9th Army until 11 or 12-41 when it was sent to France to refit as 8 leichte, returned 3-42 and sent to 10 corp, 16 Army, redesignated 8 jager 6-42. In the scenario 8 Inf never leaves and 8 jager (59corps, AOK4) arrives t78 or 79. For both the 5th and 8th, the 'leichte' to 'jager' change appears to have been in name only, so maybe the original Infantry units can withdraw and the Jager versions can arrive later. Good ones got 'em.

briantopp -> RE: sPzAbt.503 (12/12/2010 9:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Tigers first arrived on the east front in 8-42 with sPzAbt.502, but were deployed in small numbers and had little effect. At the time of the Stalingrad crisis, available Tigers were organised into sPzAbt.503 and sent to AGS. Maybe in the scenario sPzAbt.503 can enter 1-3-43 (with the original organisation of 20 Tigers and 25 IIIn's). It didn't convert to the 45 Tiger organisation until 4-43. As the scenario ends around that time, it probably doesn't need to be represented. A suggestion: [image]local://upfiles/24850/8CC0B6341602408AA21A12087B871549.jpg[/image] A fun unit and another excellent piece of chrome. Let's do it.

briantopp -> RE: Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE (12/12/2010 9:32:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: briantopp quote: ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink There it is... I like the new German and Russia chrome quite a lot. Just a small bit of regret you didn't work from the latest file so a number of edits (including a couple of tricky and time-consuming ones) aren't in the events. I'm going to do a little inventory of these and see how tricky it is to get this file up to date. Ok this wasnt too bad. PO orders are going to take awhile but worth another look in any event.

Panama -> RE: Blank objectives RU/DE .SCE (12/12/2010 10:10:50 PM)
Don't know how badly this would mess things up but... All of the Soviet 76mm divisional guns were also AT guns. They were the 76mm AT guns you see in the Soviet AT brigades and their secondary role in a division was as an AT gun. The F22 was the one the Germans used until their own PAK 40 became widely available. I suppose they might have used the F22 USV also. Not sure. About 3000 F-22 at wars start. About 9800 F-22 USV from 1939 to 1942. ZIS-3 was the most common from February 1942 to wars end. About 15000 during your scenario. Most of the F-22 and F-22 USV that began the war were lost (early on). So maybe just going with the ZIS-3 would work best. Of course you would have to edit the unit db. [sm=00000028.gif]

briantopp -> BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 3:08:48 AM)
Here is the current build. This scenario: - provides a comprehensive re-label of both OOBs into German and latinized Russian, courtesy of Obert_Klinck with many thanks. Took a little while to get used to it but it's growing on me... - all of the formations have revised PO orders. This is a first draft of this redo -- no guarantees -- just starting to playtest it. Basically, I'm experimenting with looser, less detailed orders to see how Elmer does with them. - some previous edits folded back into this file (tank arrivals; 8-panzer fixes; various other tweaks and corrections).

BigDuke66 -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 4:22:39 AM)
Really nice build, I especially like the German naming now it's like I'm used too. Is anyone taking a look at the Luftwaffe? Would be nice to have real Geschwader names, also I wonder if smaller units(size of a Gruppe) are needed/not needed. @sPzAbt653 Nice findings, I really didn't think about divisions that converted. I mentioned the 328. ID already but afaik it was dispersed among 9. Armee not sure in how small groups so maybe it wouldn't be bad to stay with July 42 as arrival date.

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 11:26:08 AM)
I did look at the Luftwaffe. I planned to look at the VVS as well. Then i caught the flu.[:(] As a result i've done little but [>:] for the last few days. Now that i am more or less recovered i will try to figure out the VVS as well, and we will see where that leads.

Oberst_Klink -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 12:16:47 PM)
You're busy with your project, too. In case you got the Lw/VVS Units, let us from STALAG13 have a look and we'll start integrating them, with your and Brian's kind permission, into Battles of Moscow 41-43.

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 12:43:11 PM)
What i did for the LW is in this thread already. I've still got the open office spreadsheet in case you want it. I haven't got anything on the VVS yet, but i have a couple of sources to look through, thanks to yourself and Panama.

briantopp -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 2:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink You're busy with your project, too. In case you got the Lw/VVS Units, let us from STALAG13 have a look and we'll start integrating them, with your and Brian's kind permission, into Battles of Moscow 41-43. I'm all for an historical treatment of both air forces. The challenge here is that both must be done concurrently to preserve game balance. The current build is modelled on "Guderian's Blitzkreig II" by the Gamers, which abstracts the air war to some extent (artillery units are also basically abstracted in this build).

Oberst_Klink -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 3:01:20 PM)
No problem. I'll have a look before I change the names anyway. The advantage is, that we can use the Geschwader (air wings), not the Gruppen (groups/squadrons). So, KG7 - He-111, KG1 - Do17 or a similar approach. Funny thing is... I never saw anybody complaining, that we can't divide the air groups in TOAW! :)

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 3:33:39 PM)
Depends on how close you want to be to history. You see, in many cases only parts of the Geschwader were on the eastern front. An example that springs to mind is JG26 of channel front fame (The Abbeville Boys). Most of the Geschwader stayed in the west while I./JG26 was sent east for about a year. An other example worth mentioning might be JG54, which was usually based just south of Leningrad, and thus outside the scope of the scenario. However, during the period of the scenario parts of it did come south. While i am on the topic, i did not have time to check which Geschwaders were in the area the scenario deals with. I excluded one or two that i know for a fact were never there though. Now, on to the VVS. I can tell you which aviation divisions belonged to which front, and which army. This on a monthly basis. I can tell you which aviation regiments were in existence during the period of the scenario. I can, as yet, NOT tell you which regiment belonged to which division, nor what they were equipped with.

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 4:09:56 PM)

VVS part 1

Front	Army		Unit			Source:http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19411001.html
Western Front			23 bad			
			31 sad			
			43 sad			
			46 sad			
			467 sad			
Reserve Front						
	24th		38 sad			
			10 iap			
			163 iap			
			66shap			
	43rd		10 sad			
			12 sad			
Bryansk Front			24 bap			
			6 reserve aviation group (1shap+1 bap)			
	13th		11 sad			
			60 sad			
			61 sad			
South-Western Front						
			36 iad pvo			
			14 sad			
			19 sad			
			63 sad			
			75 sad			
			76 sad			
			316 rap			
			1 reserve aviation group (3 iap, 3 bap, 3 shap)			
			4 reserve aviation group ( 2 iap, 1 shap, 1bap)

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 4:10:59 PM)

Part 2 Explanation of terms to follow shortly.

Separate Armies						
	4th					
			2 reserve aviation group (2 iap, 1bap, 1 shap)			
	51st		182 iap			
			247 iap			
			253 iap			
			21 bap			
			507 bap			
			103 shap			
Long Range Bomber Aviation			22 bap			
			40 bap			
			42 bap			
			50 bap			
			51 bap			
			52 bap			
			81 bap			
Moscow Military District			6 IAK PVO (17 iap)			
			77 sad			
			441 iap

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 4:18:49 PM)
iad = fighter aviation division bad = bomber aviation division shad = ground attack aviation division As above but ending in p (e.g. iap) = regiments PVO = a special formation intended to defend against enemy aviation A regiment had 40 a/c A division had 3 regiments + 4 spare a/c. = 124 a/c In May '42 the aviation was reorganized into aviation armies, each consisting of 5 or more aviation divisions. see here for my source and some pretty pictures of VVS fighters.

Panama -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 6:01:38 PM)
Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail.

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 6:30:31 PM)
The above is true. It should be less of a problem if you depict soviet air units at the regiment level, as the units in the same regiment usually had the same purpose, whereas the divisions might have 1 fighter regiment and two bomber regiments, for example. Admittedly that is probably more unit slots than most designers would be prepared to spend on air units.

briantopp -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 8:16:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail. That's been my view up to now, and I've seen that discussed before heading to the same conclusion. The current build of this scenario basically breaks the AFs out by aircraft type, and creates "virtual squadrons" by stacking. Some technical issues arise from mixing aircraft types, like -- what kind of unit icon should the unit have, if it is a mixed type? If folks have energy to do more digging and continuous improvement (and this scenario has certainly benefited enormously to date) I think it would be at least at interesting to get the artillery on both sides in better shape. Artillery is also currently abstracted in this build to a considerable extent. The game system rewards historicity there, much better than with the air units.

BigDuke66 -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 8:34:04 PM)
In what way is the artillery abstracted? Is it the load-out or the way they ware organized?

briantopp -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 8:36:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BigDuke66 In what way is the artillery abstracted? Is it the load-out or the way they ware organized? Well, the artillery units are labelled "artillery" instead of an historical unit designation (the panzer art units have historical names). And the TO&Es are probably worth a second look to ensure they are reasonably accurate

samba_liten -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 9:51:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: briantopp quote: ORIGINAL: Panama Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail. That's been my view up to now, and I've seen that discussed before heading to the same conclusion. The current build of this scenario basically breaks the AFs out by aircraft type, and creates "virtual squadrons" by stacking. Some technical issues arise from mixing aircraft types, like -- what kind of unit icon should the unit have, if it is a mixed type? If folks have energy to do more digging and continuous improvement (and this scenario has certainly benefited enormously to date) I think it would be at least at interesting to get the artillery on both sides in better shape. Artillery is also currently abstracted in this build to a considerable extent. The game system rewards historicity there, much better than with the air units. On closer reflection, (and with apologies for bringing up ever idea that comes into my head - my justification is that it is teaching me how to build my own scenario better) the soviets did lump different aircraft together. Might the disadvantage of doing so in the game not help preserve the historical ability of the LW to maintain air superiority in spite of having fewer a/c?

Panama -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 10:03:20 PM)
The problems the Soviets had in the air never had anything to do with numbers of aircraft. In 1942 they out produced the Germans almost 2 to 1. It wasn't until 1944 that the Germans were able to come close to matching Soviet air production. The Soviet problem was one of personel and training. Keeping a Soviet pilot alive long enough to become a good Soviet pilot was more the issue. Perhaps proficiency could mirror that. As long as a Soviet air unit remains on the map it becomes better through combat and increasing proficiency. Maybe start them out with a low proficiency and a veteran status to prevent them from becoming good too fast.

Telumar -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 10:38:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama The problems the Soviets had in the air never had anything to do with numbers of aircraft. In 1942 they out produced the Germans almost 2 to 1. It wasn't until 1944 that the Germans were able to come close to matching Soviet air production. The Soviet problem was one of personel and training. Keeping a Soviet pilot alive long enough to become a good Soviet pilot was more the issue. Perhaps proficiency could mirror that. As long as a Soviet air unit remains on the map it becomes better through combat and increasing proficiency. Maybe start them out with a low proficiency and a veteran status to prevent them from becoming good too fast. I think that should be the way to go. And see where this leads to.

Oberst_Klink -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 10:45:00 PM)
I think the way to distribute artillery, like Brian did, was a good solution. To put'm into the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe etc. HQs would be less feasible and practicable. For the scale of the scenario and their role, e.g. Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe/Armiya/Fronta level support, that's the best way. Just MHO. Even with an accurate OOB or TO&E of the different Art.Abt or Batteries attached to the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe sector; you'd use them to support an attack/defense of the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe sector. As you guys might have noticed, I labeled the German Artillery units, the ones attached to the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe as Art.Pk. = Artillerie Park and the heavy bits simply as sArt.Abt. (heavy artillery battalion). The independent Katyusha units, depending on their size, to Katyusha Brigada or Battalion. Before the final release pops up, I'll have managed to send Brian a glossary and a short explanation why/how I used the various German/Russian abbreviations. Anyway. Feedback for my little and first localization effort for TOAW is appreciated. And for the record: I just felt like doing it and I appreciate Brian's positive response very much ^5. Thanks lad!

Oberst_Klink -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/13/2010 10:47:56 PM)
quote: VVS part 1 Front Army Unit Source:http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19411001.html Western Front 23 bad 31 sad 43 sad 46 sad 467 sad Reserve Front 24th 38 sad 10 iap 163 iap 66shap 43rd 10 sad 12 sad Bryansk Front 24 bap 6 reserve aviation group (1shap+1 bap) 13th 11 sad 60 sad 61 sad South-Western Front 36 iad pvo 14 sad 19 sad 63 sad 75 sad 76 sad 316 rap 1 reserve aviation group (3 iap, 3 bap, 3 shap) 4 reserve aviation group ( 2 iap, 1 shap, 1bap) Sehr gut! Очень хорошо!

Panama -> RE: BfM Current build Dec 12/10 (12/14/2010 1:53:44 AM)
Soviet artillery will make you crazy. [sm=crazy.gif] If the numbers are good then what you have is good enough IMHO. BTW, the December 41 Rifle Division TO&E eliminated the 76mm AA gun. The AA battalion was represented by 6x37mm AA guns. The regimental AA was represented by 3 truck mounted 12.7mm DShK HMG. The quad Maxims were also removed at this time.

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