Generals getting killed (Full Version)

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turska -> Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 9:46:54 AM)

Just started to wonder what are the odds for corps/army commanders to get killed as i seem to lose plenty of generals. Im in turn 18 and i think i have lost 8 or 9 generals so far.

Last turn Von Kluge got killed while being army commander and some 5-6 hex'es away from the enemy zones. Plus those zones were some empty corners of the almost cleared pocket wich havent had turned to me yet.

This turn i lost Von Thoma while commanding a panzer corps.



Banzan -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:09:19 AM)

It seems to be a bit strange sometimes. I already stopped a game where i lost 2-3 commanders each round from turn one onward. Most of them died in save areas (lost 3 commanders in AGN and AGC in the first 2 turns, with all of them at starting point and not moved at all).
I don't really belive in "bad luck" anymore as it seems to be borked once started - you lose serveral commanders in one turn, great chance to lose serveral commanders every turn from now onward.

So, i guess there is a bug, but i guess it will be very hard to track down. :)



turska -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:14:02 AM)

Okay and now one turn forward and one German infantry corps commander is dead and one Rumanian general is dead.

<edit>
Also checked location for both hq's and they werent in front line. Friendly unit beetween the hq and the enemy.



Joel Billings -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:14:28 AM)

I don't think it's a bug, it just may be that the percent chance of getting killed based on distance to the enemy may be too high and will need adjusting downward.



karonagames -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:16:04 AM)

Joel has noted this issue in the development forums, so it is being looked at. It is the same on both sides.



MengJiao -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:23:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Joel has noted this issue in the development forums, so it is being looked at. It is the same on both sides.


Can you add some code that keeps Vatutin alive more often?



karonagames -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:25:47 PM)

As long as I can have Manstein![:)]



MengJiao -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:37:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

As long as I can have Manstein![:)]



Did he get shot? Or run over?



joey -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:39:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I don't think it's a bug, it just may be that the percent chance of getting killed based on distance to the enemy may be too high and will need adjusting downward.



I agree. I doubt the death rate of leaders was statistically anywhere near as high as the game protrays. I do think it needs tweeking down by a reasonable factor - perhaps by a factor of 5 or 10.



paullus99 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:40:21 PM)

I read somewhere that the Germans lost, on average, a general a week during the war - commanding troops at all levels seemed to have been extremely hazardous to their health.



ComradeP -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 3:55:59 PM)

The proximity to the front resulting in leader death feature was recently added and is at least theoretically based on the real number of deaths (I know because I posted those). However, I have no idea how the proximity check formula works in practice. It seems results can vary extremely wildly.

Keep in mind that the game doesn't include divisional commanders, so solely higher ranking general officers are included.

Previously, leader casualties were much too low as they could essentially only die through displacements or in battle.



Grouchy -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 4:54:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I read somewhere that the Germans lost, on average, a general a week during the war - commanding troops at all levels seemed to have been extremely hazardous to their health.


From the internet:

# Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
# Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
# Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
# 84 German Generals were executed by Hitler



joey -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 4:59:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I read somewhere that the Germans lost, on average, a general a week during the war - commanding troops at all levels seemed to have been extremely hazardous to their health.


I read that also, but I wonder if the facts bear this out. Many low level divisional commanders did die, but few generals of higher commands did. They were too far from the front. Somethings you cannot take things at face value.



joey -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 5:10:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I read somewhere that the Germans lost, on average, a general a week during the war - commanding troops at all levels seemed to have been extremely hazardous to their health.


From the internet:

# Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
# Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
# Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
# 84 German Generals were executed by Hitler


Based on these numbers, it appears then that the death ratio is statistically set 4 to 8 times too high.



Walloc -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 5:19:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy


From the internet:

# Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
# Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
# Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
# 84 German Generals were executed by Hitler


Lately i've seen alot of dead generals too. If above is correct only 26 corps+ commanders died assuming they all be generals. Ofc this is only combat deaths, but non the less. For example some was captured that wouldnt be included in the above figurs.
I'd say i at leased have 15 if not 20 killed by end of first winter. Including axis allied tho.
So it does seem the latest tweeks might have gone a bit overboard.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



ComradeP -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 5:47:18 PM)

quote:

Based on these numbers, it appears then that the death ratio is statistically set 4 to 8 times too high.


The problem is that it isn't "set". It can vary widely. My leader losses have never been as high as those reported by some of the people here.

I believe the chance a leader dies when he has to make a proximity to the front check is simply 100 divided by the distance in hexes, which would lead to a rather high chance of death most of the time. As said I have no idea what makes the actual check happen/what determines whether a leader will be checked.



amatteucci -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 6:15:25 PM)

Hmmm... didn't got many leaders killed.
Mainly generals shot for "incompetence" (but Pavlov always managed to survive) and some commander lost because of enemy action (i.e. HQ forced relocation after being in contact with enemy units).

So I'm amazed at the leaders loss rates some players get. BTW, I presume that German leaders should have a bonus against ending up being executed, or if they do, they should be based on a random basis (maybe after 20 June 1944) since, IIRC, many were shot for conspiracy and treason but no one because of incompetence on the field.



Klydon -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 6:53:45 PM)

It does seem Generals are getting wacked at a pretty high rate.

One note on tying this to where the HQ is at. Especially in the case of many German commanders, they are almost never at the HQ except first thing in the mourning and late in the evening overnight. Other than that, they are typically out among the troops where they think the critical spots are to get a first hand look. I have seen books comment on how Rommel had a knack of being right where the action was at and able to often rally his troops and/or personally direct the battle. Guderian led from the front in France (no reason to think he didn't do the same thing in Russia). V Manstien's book talks about being out among the lower commands, even when he was commander of 11th Army.

Something probably just needs to be tweaked a bit.



Joel Billings -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 7:18:35 PM)

Captured have to be considered the same as KIA for game purposes. I would really like to see numbers on corps and above leaders killed/captured or incapacitated during the war. I agree it is too much at the moment, just trying to figure out by how much.



elmo3 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 8:17:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Based on these numbers, it appears then that the death ratio is statistically set 4 to 8 times too high.



You need to run a lot of test games before making that assertion. One or two games is not enough due to the randomness involved.



bwheatley -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 8:20:53 PM)

Yea my 2 cents. i've lost about 18 generals through turn 34. Guderian died..which sucks.

The way i cope with it in my head is that some generals like rommel and the like enjoy leading from the front. So maybe you can tie in the leaders initiative rating into how often they go to the front to check things out and thus are at a higher chance of dieing.

Other then that a low initiative commander should never die unless his hex is bombed by air attack. If he is far from the front i mean.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 8:45:58 PM)

What was Guderian commanding? Was he in direct combat?
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Yea my 2 cents. i've lost about 18 generals through turn 34. Guderian died..which sucks.

The way i cope with it in my head is that some generals like rommel and the like enjoy leading from the front. So maybe you can tie in the leaders initiative rating into how often they go to the front to check things out and thus are at a higher chance of dieing.

Other then that a low initiative commander should never die unless his hex is bombed by air attack. If he is far from the front i mean.




elmo3 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 8:52:01 PM)

Think of the HQ unit as being a general location for the activities they perform.  It's certainly possible for a leader to be away from his HQ checking on the front.  The closer the HQ is to the front the more likely it will be for a leader to be killed.  Even leaders farther from the front get killed for various reasons (accidents, air attacks, vengeful husbands, etc).



bwheatley -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 9:09:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

What was Guderian commanding? Was he in direct combat?
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Yea my 2 cents. i've lost about 18 generals through turn 34. Guderian died..which sucks.

The way i cope with it in my head is that some generals like rommel and the like enjoy leading from the front. So maybe you can tie in the leaders initiative rating into how often they go to the front to check things out and thus are at a higher chance of dieing.

Other then that a low initiative commander should never die unless his hex is bombed by air attack. If he is far from the front i mean.




he was commander of a panzer army about 13-15 hexes back. and no air attack. I mean it can happen look at how often rommel went to the front. And almost died as well. :) but i think that should be based off leader initiative.



joey -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 9:28:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Based on these numbers, it appears then that the death ratio is statistically set 4 to 8 times too high.



You need to run a lot of test games before making that assertion. One or two games is not enough due to the randomness involved.




No need for any test games. I am speaking of history on the Eastern Front. It is purely a matter of numbers.



ComradeP -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 9:31:08 PM)

Of course it isn't a matter of numbers. Due to the extremely variable losses, one person could lose 300 leaders whilst another person could lose just 1. How is that just a matter of numbers?



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:40:33 PM)

Thank, I was just wondering.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

What was Guderian commanding? Was he in direct combat?
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Yea my 2 cents. i've lost about 18 generals through turn 34. Guderian died..which sucks.

The way i cope with it in my head is that some generals like rommel and the like enjoy leading from the front. So maybe you can tie in the leaders initiative rating into how often they go to the front to check things out and thus are at a higher chance of dieing.

Other then that a low initiative commander should never die unless his hex is bombed by air attack. If he is far from the front i mean.




he was commander of a panzer army about 13-15 hexes back. and no air attack. I mean it can happen look at how often rommel went to the front. And almost died as well. :) but i think that should be based off leader initiative.





Grotius -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:44:49 PM)

Does the game model Hitler executing generals? Just curious.

Also, is there a way to see which enemy generals have been killed? In my recent play of "Minsk," a Russian general died, but the combat report went by so fast that I didn't catch the name. Now I can't find it in the "losses" screen.



elmo3 -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/23/2010 10:50:37 PM)

Yes Hitler and Stalin will both order executions as needed to improve morale. [:)]



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