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Walloc -> RE: Generals getting killed (12/27/2010 2:23:29 PM)
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At the request of Joel and after a short correnspondance with Elmo3. I've over the last few days compiled a full list of all german generals exported from the game. To make reference point to how many was/should be killed for the dev team to use. If wanted. Ill post here as a .csv file with comment as doing the list things pop out. The raw data is in the file for dev team to use as please. Their subjective opinion on what constitudes a KIA/POW/WIA might be different then mine.
Note this is only german generals and not axis allies but as germans was in the thick of action through out the war it makes a good reference point IMO.
Disclaimer. Since i go by the list of generals in game. It could happen that a general on the eastern front is KIA and not recorded by me. The list seems fairly exhaustive, but no garanties from my side.
Out of the 255 on the list generals there 3 cases of incomplete info. Reasons in the raw data. Shouldnt throw off the data a whole lot tho.
Terms.
Ill introduce 2 terms cuz of the way the game engine as i understand it handles leader casulties in 2 different ways and cuz i think it has an impact on how many leaders should be killed by the 2 different ways. Either leaders can be killed by a roll that apparently takes places between the turns and its noted in the log.
Also a leader can be killed if its HQ, (possibly needs to be isolated) takes part in combat during the turn.
DDT = dead during turns
DBT = dead between turns
Raw data terms.
lived = Not applical for a KIA result in any way. Many of these are ofc captured at the end of the war. Any PoW in late 45 is in this category not the PoW category or else the results would be wholely inaccurate with a near 100% POW rate.
Ppl made PoWs in the Ruhr, Courland pockets and so on is in this category too.
Died = can mean just about any reason. Notes should note if on eastern front and if in command there for applical for KIA result, (died) means i dont think its applical and reason why in Notes. Fx died while in fuhrerreserve or what ever.
PoW = captured, but this can be any where. Notes should note if applical aka if on eastern front and in command. (PoW) means not applical to game IMO since taking PoW on western front or such.
KIA = killed and again (KIA) means not applical IMO, reason in notes like KIA on western front.
I've had to set some subjective parameters for generals on the list to fit into being KIA of the game engine. Ppl and devs might ofc differ with those but u will hafta go in with ur own and look at raw data to come up with ur numbers then.
So my numbers are lot less than those on the list actually died or PoWed. Problem is for example when u have ppl on the list being in führerreserve commeting suicide. Do they count or not. Is a general on the list taken PoW in Tunis applical for a KIA result on the eastern front. If so u ofc drive up casulty rate tho not per say to do will KIA rate of generals on the eastern front.
My parameters is that u hafta have been in command some how at the time and on the eastern front. This makes for an accurate kill rate per turn, but doesnt reduce the pool of officers as it should. Problem is if u multiply the numbers by those that is on list and die/pow to any cause the chance of a Model, Guderian in command on the eastern front gets killed is much higher than it should be. How devs want to deal with that dilema is up too them [:)]
For a resume of applical KIA/POW in game as i see it.
1941(all of it): 2 generals on list KIAed. 1 army commander killed in plane crashing in mine field and 1 korps commander killed in air attack. Both died to the DBT rolls IMO.
1942(all of it) 0, yes zero(u could argue for 1, but he isnt in command at time)
So after first 72ish turns u if using history as a bench mark should have 2 KIA generals. Not counting statisical uncertainty ofc. Sorta interresting to compare with Elmo3s test.
1943(defending sucks, for KIA rates of generals apparently)
Jan: 1, KIA Korps commander killed by blue on blue fire. DBT roll
Feb: 5, 1 WIA/KIA and 4 PoWs(all Stalingrad), KIA DBT and 1 army commander 3 korps commanders DDT rolls IMO. Even if considered DBT rolls its sorta special in that they'd be very close to enemy units through out jan 43 by nature of being in a pocket. If DBT have a range modifier.
March-July 0
Aug: 1, KIA korps commader DBT
Sep-Dec: 0
By end of 43(124ish turns) we on 9 in all 5 DBT and 4 DDT
1944:(pockets and ruptured front makes living harder)
April: 1 KIA DBT army
June: 3 KIA korps commander DBT, 1 korps PoW DDT
July: 1 KIA korps DBT, 3 PoW korps DDT, 1 PoW army DDT
Aug: 3 PoW korps DDT, 1 KIA army DBT
Sep: 2 KIA korps DBT, 1 PoW DDT Korps commander
16 in 1944, 8 DBT and 8 DDT. 3 Army commanders in all.
Note all but 2 of this losses occur as a result of either destruction of AGC or the rupture of the front in AGS. Which will in game terms make alot of DDT cuz of pockets and overrunned HQ. 7 of DBT also occur during that phase where again alot of HQ will be close to enemy in range cuz of the shattered fronts.
1945:
Jan: 2 KIA korps DBT
Feb: 1 PoW (commanding Budapest defences) DDT
March: 1 KIA army DBT
4 in all.
Through the war thats 29 in 225 turns. Of those 13 are DDT leaving 16 to the DBT rolls or 1 in every 14 turns.
No Army groups commders died, but 4 army commanders did. Rest with the Budapest exception are korps commanders.
Clearly the majority of casulties are taken not only defending but especially when fronts are shattered/ruptured. IMHO this should be shown as the in game DDT rolls.
Lastly a discussion about a modifier on DBT rolls where range to enemy count negatively the closer u are.
This might seem like a good idea and i can find many arguements for it. Just that 7 times as many corps commaders as army commanders and no army groups commanders die is an obvious one.
I do find one major reason going against this. If u look at commaders killed in Pz and later russian OMG thrusts, where units go deep into enemy territory and by nature of it gets close to enemies. If and i repeat if it from devs point of view is "best practice" to move the HQ of those formations up with the units for supply purposes. U many times cuz of the narrowness of these thrust only really have 1 place to put them and thats on units. Meaning by default they most of the time wil be close to enemy in range.
Problem then becomes that empericallly this wasnt dangerous in terms of KIA, not a single Pz korps commander is killed/POWEd during these deep operations through out the war on the eastern front.
Just wanting to note that issue.
Hope is of use and kind regards,
Rasmus
P.S the csv file is zipped and uploaded in support forum as it wouldnt take here.
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