RE: Axis Players Think Tank (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:17:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Using HQ buildup multiple times must be hurting him in some way.


It burns through trucks and APs at a fierce rate.

von Beanie, running away from the panzers isn't the answer. Hitting them back is. They are typically quite vulnerable to counterattacks and fatigued after a big push.



1275psi -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:23:33 AM)

well,i am not embarressed to say it - but i have started 6 times so far -and never gotten across the first wall of death west of solomensk?[8|][8|][8|][8|]

let alone worry about the blizzard.

but i do agree - a panzer unit parked in a town well behind the front suffering massive losses in no combat?
Not quite right that...............?



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:28:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I actually lobbied to have the vehicle pool numbers reduced because I thought HQ build up could be used too much.


Piffle. Bring it on, Bob! I'm not scared of your silly buildups!





karonagames -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:47:31 AM)

quote:

Piffle. Bring it on, Bob! I'm not scared of your silly buildups!


It's how I got Smolensk in our Armchair General AAR[;)]



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:54:21 AM)

Sure enough. [;)]

But I made you work for it!



Muzrub -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 11:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Beanie
On a different topic, in the old wargame Drive on Stalingrad, one design aspect that I really liked was "Hitler Directives." A player would be randomly ordered to hold or take such an objective by turn x, and forfeited victory points for each turn they failed. As I recall, the other side would not be aware of the opponent's directive. Such directives could be invoked for both sides by the computer to represent the political costs of surrendering major chunks of territory, or not taking an objective demanded by your leader. I believe such an option would help eliminate some of the unrealistic actions that are occurring with the 20/20 hindsight of history (and it wouldn't be that hard to program).


Agree



Schmauser -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 9:38:07 PM)

Here are some specifics from my game. Please let me know where and how to post game saves if interested.


Game was started with the strategic goal to maximize Soviet unit destruction with minimal Axis losses. The idea being that a greatly reduced Soviet Army would hit later and lighter in winter. Ground was to be taken to increase the resource base, but was usually annexed following reduction of a pocket. Leningrad was the major objective and it was isolated by a deep penetration to the far end of the Finnish “No Attack” line. This occurred on Turn 17 when German forces destroyed a Soviet Fortified Zone and ZOC’ed the last hex. This was a near run thing because mud set in and the pocketing units were outside of supply range. Sevastopol was the secondary objective, but was only to be taken if on the cheap. Breaching the Perekop Isthmus was much more important in my long term planning and was successfully achieved.

Additional details of the game are as follows.

1) I did not direct the air campaign other than to destroy the Soviet Air Force on turn 1. In many cases I was rather lax in bringing forward airbases.

2) I did not modify my command structure very much. Most AP’s went to direct assignment of support units and in several cases I wasted APs as they were unused. The biggest use of AP’s was to assign the Rumanians to AG Antonescu just before Winter to see how that would work.

3) I toyed with fortified zones. Part was based on seeing if they could be used to hold quiet sectors and build entrenchment levels and part was based on getting manpower on the map to train. Train they did, but I’m not convinced it was worth it based on the Winter effects.

4) Infantry was used to breach Soviet lines with the goal to achieve a 3-4 hex wide opening. The armored and motorized troops then made the penetrations by maneuver rather than by force. Most armor casualties were the result of breakdowns and attrition. Pentrations were mostly made in a double column to reduce the likelihood of relieving a pocket. I tried to minimize breaking down divisions into regiments to simulate the restraint that would be required against a human.

5) The AI put up a spirited defense in AG North. A frontal assault against Leningrad was impossible and I was being herded east as I tried to reach the Finnish border. In the end I had to commit and reinforce the 4th Army from AGC to achieve my objective. Leningrad was finally taken in the winter, but only because a percentage of isolated units are destroyed each turn when ZOC’ed.

6) The AI left AG South pretty thin after the destruction of the forward forces. Pushing forward my Rumanian allies proved as much of a challenge as pocketing the Soviets. The goal in this area was to spread casualties to the Rumanians as well as increase their effectiveness through combat. My intent was to build them up so that they could hold the southern part of the line while 11th Army was Wintering in the Crimea.

7) Most Soviet casualties occurred in the area of AG Center. They tried to establish a line at the Dnepr and then fell back on Moscow. I probably could have taken Moscow had I not been fixated on Leningrad. Holding Moscow would have been impossible.

8) Advances were made with the intent to convert rails to the east at the maximum rate. I believe I was mostly successful in this as I only had a few units that went out of supply on the first mud turn. This was easily rectified and I never had any out of supply units in the Winter.

9) I had the goal of using my armor for 3 turns followed by a turn of rest. This mostly worked, but I had quite a few instances where the armor did not resupply. I believe this is the result of enemy ZOC’s interrupting supply flow.

10) I experimented with resupplying by air. This seemed to have minimal effect and resulted in many transport losses due to interdiction. I then switched to using the armored spearheads to overrun the Soviet HQ’s and airfields. I gained far more fuel and a little more supply using this method as compared to airdrops.

11) Pocketed troops were to be mopped up by advancing infantry. I focused on using a couple of divisions or perhaps a particular Corps so that the rest of an army could continue the advance.

12) I avoided the Pripet Marshes. AG Center went north and AG South went, well South of the marsh. I only used the Cavalry division to advance the rail line in the marsh. Soviet forces in the Pripet Marshes were pocketed and destroyed when I took Kiev.

13) I avoided using deliberate attacks wherever possible. They burn too many movement points and most of the Soviet units are fairly weak at the start. Most deliberate attacks were used to force river crossings.

14) Supporting infantry was pushed to the maximum to stay up with the armor. Triple rations of moleskin was issued to the Landsers and much appreciated.

15) All efforts were made to maintain command integrity. Each Corps and Army had their defined zone on the map. Part of this was to maximize efficiency and the other part was to minimize the Germanic propensity for Wanderlust. [;)]

16) Taking Leningrad was to have the added benefit of Finnish troops occupying the northern part of the line in Winter. The Finns were never pushed back and have insane CV’s.

17) I tried to winter my armor in cities, and towns. When necessary, motorized units were used to patch the line to reduce AFV losses. On 2-3 occasions I had to use armor and they were pushed back with dreadful AFV losses.

18) Winter defense was based on strong points in every other hex. Fortified zones were initially built in those hexes to increase fort levels and were then disbanded before they could be attacked. Hexes with towns were used when possible and I made best effort to rest troops in towns. Defense of alternate hexes was designed to increase CV per hex and to make best advantage of low Soviet mobility. Seems to me that Guard Cavalry has the best mobility at that time.

19) Winter reinforcements were fed into the line as a last resort. They were left entrained in Poland to delay the blizzard effects. I think I had 6-8 uncommitted divisions to push forward on the first snow turn. They were desperately needed to prevent the loss of Kursk, Orel and a couple of other cities.

20) Mountain divisions were broken down into regiments so that they could cover 3 times the frontage. They eventually wore down or had to retreat to avoid being cut off. Once retreated, the lack of fort levels makes a regiment vulnerable.

21) At no time was the front seriously breached. Holes were opened and plugged and on occasion I had to reshape part of the line. Not sure how bad it would have been without the Finns. To me they were worth 15-20 divisions.

22) It probably took the AI 2-3 weeks in December to start attacking. The number of attacks in the first couple of turns was also small. I am hopeful that this is the result of the heavy losses I inflicted. Then again, it could also be the result of low movement points.

23) I have saved games for every turn from 24 to 38. Turn 24 is important since it is the last turn before blizzard. As you can see, I had a healthy Wehrmacht with low losses and the Red Army was seriously under strength due to heavy losses. In turn 25 the Axis just melts without any meaningful Soviet action and gets a little worse each turn. I can understand the intent to model the winter, but my problems with this are as follows.

- The Soviets did nothing and I have 700,000 fewer fit troops in one week. Communicable diseases don’t spread that fast and I doubt that Wehrmacht casualty rolls support this effect. (Please note that I was born in Winnipeg (Canada) and know something about 50 F below zero.)

- You can defer this effect in a city, town or the Crimea to some degree. The thing is that once you get the winter adjustment you are just as dead.

- You will never get back the disabled troops at 1% per week. In fair weather your weekly attrition rate is twice that. I challenge the developers to show me that 1,000,000 nearly permanent disablements resulted from that winter.

- Strength losses lead to combat losses which lead to morale/experience losses which complete the cycle with more permanent losses. The game engine then feeds replacements back into these units further increasing casualty levels. Net effect is that you wind up with a smaller and less effective army since the game engine kills your quality.

- Troop losses also result in equipment losses. I would be curious to know if equipment is returned to the pool. My sense is that it isn’t.

- A review of my units starting on turn 38 shows that rifle and support squads take the beating from winter. It also appears that they are coming back at 30-40 experience as compared to what they were before being Winterized. Can the developers confirm if a squad returns from the disabled pool at their original experience level?

- Please note that the turn 38 Axis OOB statistics are somewhat misleading if taken at face value. That is because they don’t account for the roughly 150000 to 200000 new troops that are received as reinforcements during the winter turns. Without them your numbers of fit troops would be atrocious.








AXIS Statistics:

TURN 24 TURN 25 TURN38

Total OOB: 3696093 3718368 2993092
Fit OOB: 3650493 3037849 2802626
KIA: 152009 156937 248477
Captured: 7596 8078 24418
Disabled: 258024 272151 1249753


SOVIET Statistics:

TURN 24 TURN 25 TURN38

Total OOB: 4502844 4621651 5456114
Fit OOB: 4395547 4515089 5282353
KIA: 443499 4335171 991155
Captured: 3047160 3067332 3118070
Disabled: 799589 818451 1097899








kevini1000 -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 9:57:03 PM)

Actually I now wonder if it is possible that the axis players might be making certain mistakes on the opening turn that might be hurting them.

Sath



Joel Billings -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:02:53 PM)

I would expect you to beat up on the Soviets in 1942 given where the armies stand as of turn 38. Was this at Normal versus the AI?

Any elements that come in as replacements from the pool do come in lower, however Gary has always claimed that the experience of the element getting replacements is a big factor in where the experience ends up after getting replacements (i.e. high experience units can take replacements without losing much experience).



Schmauser -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:09:57 PM)

All players make mistakes and I am sure I made my fair share. Not sure if turn 1 is the be all end all though.


This was only my second game and I knew that I couldn't do everything so I focused on the land warfare aspects.

How far can I push the rails?

How many Russians can I kill?

Can I take Leningrad?

How many units can I pocket?

How much loathing will I have after my first Winter? [8|]


I'm sure I can do a little better next time. Especially with not getting bogged down in the swamps and perhaps shifting the northern panzer group south to pocket soviets in front of Moscow. My river crossing also need some work. Reading the manual 3 or 4 more times will also help.





karonagames -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:10:54 PM)

@Schmauser: thank you for a great post. You have pretty much written the script for how I approach the game as the Axis against the AI.

I would be interested to hear whether you think your "alternate hex" defence would work against a human. I used this in my most recent test, and found it worked very well, apart from cavalry divs sometimes slipping through the line. The other testers thought a human could crack this easily.

I would be grateful to see the T 24 and T38 saves. PM sent.




Schmauser -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:15:18 PM)

Yes normal and AI.

I'll play it into 42 and likely start a new game. I believe my challenge will be that I'll have to use my armor to punch more holes in the line as compared to where I could use infantry to do almost all of it in 41. I think I'll call this "Steel before Blood".



bwheatley -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:23:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

@Schmauser: thank you for a great post. You have pretty much written the script for how I approach the game as the Axis against the AI.

I would be interested to hear whether you think your "alternate hex" defence would work against a human. I used this in my most recent test, and found it worked very well, apart from cavalry divs sometimes slipping through the line. The other testers thought a human could crack this easily.

I would be grateful to see the T 24 and T38 saves. PM sent.





The alternate hex defense was pretty nice. When i was the soviets i could rarely slip through those enemy ZOC. Soviet troops have atrocious morale in the first winter.



Schmauser -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:38:57 PM)

Thanks

Hopefully others might find some useful bits in their games or tips to improve mine.

To me it is about CV's and odds. I'd rather have an opponent beat me when I'm strong as compared to being beat in detail one unit at a time. Ultimately it's about trading casualties and space for game turns. FWIW it was typical to see 2000 inflicted casualties before my units retreated. Retreat casualties of course made things a lot worse in the end, but that is the winterfest.

I believe the limitation to a human would be to find and employ enough soviet units with high enough movement to infiltrate the line because with reserves you can ZOC the leaker. Doing so will then force them to find a high enough CV to beat the reserves or switch tactics and widen the hole at the base. This is all moot if the Soviet strength is so high that they can just beat the whole line like a drum.

I'll send the saves tomorrow since I'm at work.



Ketza -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 10:51:23 PM)

Great thread I am learing a lot about the winter impact on the German army. I dont have much to add that has already been said except it seems to me the Soviet player can change history by running to avoid casualties but the axis player can seemingly do nothing to stave them off. The seems to be a very lopsided approach.

This solution seems to be a political/strategic point system of some type linked with territory ownage. Both sides need some type of reward for actually holding different areas of the map other then the resource/industry factor. Strategic/political points that could impact raising extra troops on the part of the Soviet or spending points t as the Axis to prevent troop withdrawals. Just some suggestions.



Mynok -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 11:11:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmauser

Yes normal and AI.

I'll play it into 42 and likely start a new game. I believe my challenge will be that I'll have to use my armor to punch more holes in the line as compared to where I could use infantry to do almost all of it in 41. I think I'll call this "Steel before Blood".


That would certainly change the nature of the game for the Axis.



Pford -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 11:52:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza


This solution seems to be a political/strategic point system of some type linked with territory ownage. Both sides need some type of reward for actually holding different areas of the map other then the resource/industry factor.


Yes, and I think the proliferation of partisan units should follow the fortunes, or misfortunes, of German arms. The more reverses, the more partisans. Not sure if the game does this. Probably not.



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 11:55:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Great thread I am learing a lot about the winter impact on the German army. I dont have much to add that has already been said except it seems to me the Soviet player can change history by running to avoid casualties but the axis player can seemingly do nothing to stave them off. The seems to be a very lopsided approach.

This solution seems to be a political/strategic point system of some type linked with territory ownage. Both sides need some type of reward for actually holding different areas of the map other then the resource/industry factor. Strategic/political points that could impact raising extra troops on the part of the Soviet or spending points t as the Axis to prevent troop withdrawals. Just some suggestions.


Sigh.

Running away is a pure novice Soviet move that only works on novice Axis players. No political stuff needed here. We just need more Axis players who figure out how to punish the runaway...and more Soviets who figure out how to stand and fight.

Prediction: within a few weeks or months we're going to get people complaining about Soviet counterattacks and walls and carpet defenses.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/25/2011 11:59:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Soviet player can change history by running to avoid casualties but the axis player can seemingly do nothing to stave them off.


This seems to be the current Axis Fanboi Club tagline.... [>:]

How about the in-game mechanics (ie rule) that says German defensive fire always (AND I REPEAT: ALWAYS) causes significantly higher Soviet casualties than the other way round?

Is this also the case of "player seemingly unable to stave casualties off"? If it is why don't I see Club regulars complaining about it?



Scook_99 -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 12:02:05 AM)

I am in a PvP game with my friend, we started about the release date, and we are playing v1.0 still. I really haven't played vs. the computers, for me once I play a human, I have a hard time with AI, in any game. However, my friend has played ahead on both German and Russian, so he has a good idea what has been going to happen. We have just entered 1942, and I am having serious doubts if I will have a German Army come May 1942. We are planning on playing through at least 1942, though, just so my compadre can build Soviet tank corps and overrun me. some data notes:

-End of November German casualties ~ 752,000 troops
-Beginning of January 1942 casualties ~ 1.6 million troops
-Last three turns of winter, beginning turn casualties: 96,000, 105,000, and 123,000 (this last figure from the 1st week, Jan 1942)

Every hex of Axis troops is being attacked every turn. I am employing a slow fall back strategy to maintain a line in front of the Russians. I feel my casualty figures are going up each turn from the withdrawal, as units are not hunkering down in towns and cities, but exposing themselves to the cold. There are some local counter attacks on tank brigade who stick their noses out a wee bit far, but that's about it. I don't know what it will look like, but my fear is a phantom army of depleted units. A lot of this is my fault, though.

#1 I guessed when rain was starting and wasted 3 clear weather turns. My army was in good shape heading into bad weather, but in hindsight, very pointless.
#2 I could have been even more aggressive during the summer offensive. I had 2.8 million Soviet casualties at end of September. I think I could have added a million more without working hard. Every Russian casualty here is one less to attack me in winter.
#3 I made no headway in the south. I pulled up short of Kiev, and took Odessa only on the last turn before severe blizzards. I need to make more effective headway and take less casualties while securing objectives.
#4 I probably gave my tankers too much rest. I felt they needed it, but they can rest when it rains...

There is more, I am sure, but will think of it later.



Ketza -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 1:04:22 AM)

I am not an Axis fanboy. I enjoy the game as either side I have 3 pbems going two as Soviet. I only have time for one AAR which I chose to use my Axis game. I am finding it much easier to play the Soviets and I can look forward to (according to the AArs and posts) the Axis army being severly impacted through no action of my own of which they cant seemingly do nothing to stop it.

Playing as the Soviets seems much more forgiving if you make some mistakes.

Just my 2 cents from the experience I have had so far.



Aurelian -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 1:41:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Great thread I am learing a lot about the winter impact on the German army. I dont have much to add that has already been said except it seems to me the Soviet player can change history by running to avoid casualties but the axis player can seemingly do nothing to stave them off. The seems to be a very lopsided approach.

This solution seems to be a political/strategic point system of some type linked with territory ownage. Both sides need some type of reward for actually holding different areas of the map other then the resource/industry factor. Strategic/political points that could impact raising extra troops on the part of the Soviet or spending points t as the Axis to prevent troop withdrawals. Just some suggestions.


Sigh.

Running away is a pure novice Soviet move that only works on novice Axis players. No political stuff needed here. We just need more Axis players who figure out how to punish the runaway...and more Soviets who figure out how to stand and fight.

Prediction: within a few weeks or months we're going to get people complaining about Soviet counterattacks and walls and carpet defenses.



I agree. And as I said before, I did run away. Turn 7 and my PBEM opponent is a hex or two from Leningrad. Need to learn when to fight and when not to.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:19:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I am not an Axis fanboy. I enjoy the game as either side I have 3 pbems going two as Soviet. I only have time for one AAR which I chose to use my Axis game. I am finding it much easier to play the Soviets and I can look forward to (according to the AArs and posts) the Axis army being severly impacted through no action of my own of which they cant seemingly do nothing to stop it.


Well this game has plenty of rules that "player can do nothing to stop". How about extra frustrating limited Soviet MP rule? It's as if Sov units are cripples, sometimes the enemy encircles me not due to his tactical prowess, but simply due to my units being severely impaired and MP-decimated. Do I complain? No.

One German cavalry units "emits" a ZOC so strong it effectivelly closes off my tank units simply by WALKING through some hexes (enemy hexes require so many MPs they are nigh on impassable. Do I complain? No. (For the record, this post is not complaining about the game itself, it's complaining about whiners.)

quote:


Playing as the Soviets seems much more forgiving if you make some mistakes.


That's correct, and that's how it should be. That's the difference between two sides. Which does not necessarilly mean Soviets are easier to play. It's just their untrained hordes are more numerous, and playing them is more forgiving than leading elite units in what was basically a "one shot" operation.



2ndACR -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:34:38 AM)

Check your morale Oleg, that and fuel will hamper you. My Romanians do good to get 3 hexes without resistance.



randallw -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:36:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sigh.

Running away is a pure novice Soviet move that only works on novice Axis players. No political stuff needed here. We just need more Axis players who figure out how to punish the runaway...and more Soviets who figure out how to stand and fight.

Prediction: within a few weeks or months we're going to get people complaining about Soviet counterattacks and walls and carpet defenses.



Would it be wrong to believe that much of what people are unhappy about, you feel these things will be worked out through more playing experience ( and do not need coding/rules adjustments )?



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:38:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Check your morale Oleg, that and fuel will hamper you. My Romanians do good to get 3 hexes without resistance.


I know it will I'm OK with anything I went through so far, every humiliating defeat, every anti-Soviet rule, every unit being trampled on by the German hob nailed boot [:D]

My time will come.

So far I haven't seen anything really problematic with the game, except for heavily one sided whining on the forum [;)] Knock on wood, hope to stay that way.



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:42:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Would it be wrong to believe that much of what people are unhappy about, you feel these things will be worked out through more playing experience ( and do not need coding/rules adjustments )?


I think the game has its issues and kinks. I know the developers and testers are discussing many ways to improve it.

But a number of things being raised on these boards are non issues. The runaway is one of them. This is exactly wrong. Some of the testers feel indeed that the game is possibly too rewarding of an aggressive Soviet forward defense.

I have seen thus far only 1 Soviet player who is beginning to understand how to really do this. When more and more Soviet players start doing the same...this runaway talk is going to disappear very quickly and be replaced by new and considerably more accurate concerns.



2ndACR -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:43:52 AM)

I would like to see pocketed units CV decrease a little slower in versus human games. I can see a CV 1 if no supplies left, but to have 40%+ supplies in a unit and it still plummets the next turn. That pocket should have lasted longer. That was 20 divisions. Big ones too.

Wait until the Blizzard and then watch me whine when my CV plummets the next turn. LOL


Oh and the turn is ready.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 3:50:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
But a number of things being raised on these boards are non issues. The runaway is one of them. This is exactly wrong. Some of the testers feel indeed that the game is possibly too rewarding of an aggressive Soviet forward defense.

I have seen thus far only 1 Soviet player who is beginning to understand how to really do this. When more and more Soviet players start doing the same...this runaway talk is going to disappear very quickly and be replaced by new and considerably more accurate concerns.


Flavius, thank gods for a brilliant and reasonable beta/dev team. I've been active in some betas myself, some for GG games, but you guys are the best beta/support team I've seen, probably ever. And boy do you have a patience with all sorts of posts [&o] LOL



bwheatley -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 4:10:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Great thread I am learing a lot about the winter impact on the German army. I dont have much to add that has already been said except it seems to me the Soviet player can change history by running to avoid casualties but the axis player can seemingly do nothing to stave them off. The seems to be a very lopsided approach.

This solution seems to be a political/strategic point system of some type linked with territory ownage. Both sides need some type of reward for actually holding different areas of the map other then the resource/industry factor. Strategic/political points that could impact raising extra troops on the part of the Soviet or spending points t as the Axis to prevent troop withdrawals. Just some suggestions.



If the soviets run away they are giving up manpower production cities. :) I'd imagine you will be sad come 42 if you lose a lot of big cities. I lost leningrad but managad to keep kursk and kharkov and rostov so come 42 i'm 1.1 million over historical right now on my infantry count. That's even with losing almost 5 million before winter.



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