RE: Axis Players Think Tank (Full Version)

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Walloc -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 4:01:23 PM)

ill look, i have a bad habbit of saving in the same slots so newer games tend to take over.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Schmauser -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 4:39:44 PM)

I think people need to understand that there is a different dynamic for AI play versus MP which will hopefully help them to feel less frustrated. The AI is usually scripted which allows things to be both limited and predictable (for good and bad). MP is all about fun (and defeating your hated enemy!!). Players think in terms of how far they can push something or beating history. This presents a much bigger challenge to the developer as players will lose interest when something is no longer fun. What complicates things in WITE is mirroring the 41 Winter without guaranteeing Soviet destruction or crippling German offensive capability in 42. Given that the winter effects are hard coded in the game and humans will not try to repeat the mistakes of history, this means that tweaks will likely have to be made in secondary areas. It is evaluating the cause and effect of each of those tweaks that requires prudence and patience.


I would like to know how much discussion was given to supply capture. Perhaps this is one area where a tweak can be made to reward rapid advancement on a limited scale.

Forward deploying a large army like the Soviets in 41 would require significant prepositioning of supply dumps at transportation centers. In many cases the pace of the advance was too fast to allow evacuation or destruction of those grain silos, depots, warehouses or rolling rail stock filled with goodies. Additionally, an advancing army will take advantage of foraging opportunities to replace or augent what is provided by their supply trains.

Perhaps this could be reflected in the capturing of supplies (foodstuffs) and fuel at transportation centers in a similar sense to overrunning HQ's and airbases. This would put those items into the Corps HQ's to sustain the rate of advance while still requiring ammo to be lugged from the Fatherland. IMHO, this effect should'nt allow more than a turn or two advancement beyond the normail railhead limits (look at the oversupply of your units on turn 1 as a comparison). On the flip side, the availability of this supply would decrease over time if the Soviets held those locations. This would reflect their use of the forward deployed supplies since it would be unlikely that STAVKA would push forward supply knowing that their troops are falling back to a new line.



pompack -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 5:36:55 PM)

BigA:

FWIW, I am playing GC first time as Russians, Normal, 1.03Beta2. For T11 the Event log is showing "5700k Soviet population has migrated". I have noticed similar numbers in excess of 4500k for at least the previous four turns.

If this message truly indicates the pop evacuated, then I have seen over 20,000,000 just in the month of August. If it doesn't indicate that, then what is it saying?



Farfarer61 -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 9:13:07 PM)

One quick and simple PBEM measure would be to not have a SOV move on turn one. This was sort of the case in the board game. You could do it immediately as a house rule. The SU human player is not "shocked" by the German attack, and reacts superbly under the circumstances ina current game. However, with a total turn one freeze, the human SOV player will really feel the strategic surprise impact, encirclements will be bigger, retreats will not be as effective or possible.

This is a quick simple semi-fix without changing a the basic essence of the game.



Klydon -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 11:06:46 PM)

The German Second Army and also 2nd and 5th panzer divisions.

Second army is mostly an infantry formation. Historically, it went in south of AGC north of 6th Army.

2nd and 5th Panzer went in for operation Typhoon when they showed up towards the end of September.

What are some German thoughts on these as they are probably the two biggest decisions you have to make from a re-enforcement standpoint of view.



Joel Billings -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/26/2011 11:10:36 PM)

IIRC, the migrated total is the game to date total, not the amount for the turn. So that number should keep increaseing each turn.



JAMiAM -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 12:06:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The German Second Army and also 2nd and 5th panzer divisions.

Second army is mostly an infantry formation. Historically, it went in south of AGC north of 6th Army.

2nd and 5th Panzer went in for operation Typhoon when they showed up towards the end of September.

What are some German thoughts on these as they are probably the two biggest decisions you have to make from a re-enforcement standpoint of view.


For me, the 2nd Army usually goes between 16th and 9th Armies, or 16th Army and PzGp 3. I usually use it to guard (or advance into) the region comprised by the Velikie Luki-Rzhev axis, plus or minus 50 miles. Sometimes, when I'm AP rich, I'll assign it to AGN, to relieve the burden on AGC. It never really gets stronger than two full Corps though, since that starts overloading whichever AG it is assigned to,

The 40th Pz Corps (2nd and 5th Pz Divisions) goes to whatever area needs a reinforcement of success. It's hard to pass up using two full strength Pz divisions for a JOMP...Just One More Push...[;)]



pompack -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 12:28:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

IIRC, the migrated total is the game to date total, not the amount for the turn. So that number should keep increaseing each turn.


Thanks, that makes a lot more sense




Walloc -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 4:53:35 AM)

Once thing i've noticed in the manual that if i understand it correct isnt working.

21.1.10.2. MANPOWER EVACUATION AND MIGRATION
Manpower factory points in German and Soviet nationality town, city and urban hexes may
evacuate/migrate when the hex is captured by enemy units. For purposes of migration, each
manpower factory point represents 50,000 people. In any one turn, up to five manpower
factory points can migrate from one town, city or urban hex to another.

If i understand that correctly i means a max of 5 manpower can evac from a hex per turn.
I seen plenty a cases from since the first version where that isnt upheld. Just 2 mins ago, in game. Kiev went from 16 to 9 MP points after being overruned being non occupied. Thats by my math 7.
Too boot if u attack/occupy a hex more than once in the same turn it gets several rolls of evacing. In hexes with a large manpower base that more or less garanties that rule is broken by a fairly large amount.

Maybe it some thing to discuss in the tester forum if i understand the essence of the rule correctly, cuz its not working like that atm and should it work like that.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Senno -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:06:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The German Second Army and also 2nd and 5th panzer divisions.

Second army is mostly an infantry formation. Historically, it went in south of AGC north of 6th Army.

2nd and 5th Panzer went in for operation Typhoon when they showed up towards the end of September.

What are some German thoughts on these as they are probably the two biggest decisions you have to make from a re-enforcement standpoint of view.


For me, the 2nd Army usually goes between 16th and 9th Armies, or 16th Army and PzGp 3. I usually use it to guard (or advance into) the region comprised by the Velikie Luki-Rzhev axis, plus or minus 50 miles. Sometimes, when I'm AP rich, I'll assign it to AGN, to relieve the burden on AGC. It never really gets stronger than two full Corps though, since that starts overloading whichever AG it is assigned to,

The 40th Pz Corps (2nd and 5th Pz Divisions) goes to whatever area needs a reinforcement of success. It's hard to pass up using two full strength Pz divisions for a JOMP...Just One More Push...[;)]



That's pretty much what I do as well. I didn't know that 2nd Army's assignment was it's historical assignment. Just the gap that developed screamed out for troops in my first game, and that's where I put it.



Joel Billings -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:22:41 AM)

Manpower can be destroyed. Up to 5 can migrate, but any number could be destroyed as well (not sure if there is a limit on destroyed, usually not too many during any given attack or when the city is captured).



Walloc -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:48:06 AM)

Ok thx Joel, but try making multiple attacks(not taking it) on a hex like the largest manpower hex in Moscow. I'd say i see repeatly the multiple evac messages on each attack easily going beyond the limit per turn of 5. I assume such an msg equals a migration not a destroyed. There might be atm an enforced max of 5 per attack, but doesnt seems so per turn.

Dont have any save of that, but i guess thats testers are for [:'(]

Kind regards,

Rasmus



bwheatley -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 6:23:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

no Im saying, run away to the rivers and leave certain stuff in checkerboard, whatever that you dont mind losing...but Im running away with those early units that I think I can salvage into something.  Balance between giving up units for time and space but also preserving something that can form up behind natural defense lines.

The hardest part for me in sov pbem is dealing with the clutter in the opening turns. I think one way to reduce it is to go checkerboard and let the stuff die and parcel out units that you start to notice and "care about lol",... give them the good leaders and move them to the rear defense areas.


Heh losing 4 million in the first 15 turns really de-cluttered up the board for me. :)
Of course it also gave me nightmares trying to figure out how to slow the damn german beast down...without putting myself in position to be encircled. It's a real dilly of a pickle but a fun one.



Walloc -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 6:27:43 AM)

Ok tested it.

Pic pre attacks. Manpower 50.

[image]local://upfiles/22745/85C3673142F9466CB56CB9A850A48FFF.jpg[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 6:28:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I generally expend the frontier armies west of the Dnepr and dig in with reserves and reinforcements. The only stuff I try to get out is the motorized divisions, and that's for AP farming purposes.

Many Soviet players have this mistaken idea they should be saving the tank divisions. These are rather useless. It's the rifle divisions that really matter in 1941.





Yea compared to your start tank divisions the tank corps you get in early 42 are still leaps and bounds over. I used them last turn to repulse a german panzer division on the other side of a river. I lost 80 tanks but i did manage to make him retreat and kill 56 of his :)

Just the ability to have more then 18 MP is a godsend. I can finally attack and run away behind the lines so as not to get destroyed the next turn.



Walloc -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 6:29:21 AM)

Pic post attack. Same turn. Manpower 1. Counted lotsa evac msgs and looking at soviet side before and after it adds up too at leased 42 evaced manpower points.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

[image]local://upfiles/22745/F430499FCCF84754834C0BDC3C36CC8E.jpg[/image]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 12:57:27 PM)

i send it and most of the OKH Inf Div reinforcements to take the terrain features west of Leningrad and then Leningrad itself. It is a meatgrinder approach using 9 units plus 9 reserve vs powerful 3 stacks each turn, but works. As soon the port of Olitsovo (?) on Ladoga falls, isolation happens, then victory and Finns released etc. Then I send the second army and 2 -3 corps back to east prussia for the winter.
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The German Second Army and also 2nd and 5th panzer divisions.

Second army is mostly an infantry formation. Historically, it went in south of AGC north of 6th Army.

2nd and 5th Panzer went in for operation Typhoon when they showed up towards the end of September.

What are some German thoughts on these as they are probably the two biggest decisions you have to make from a re-enforcement standpoint of view.


For me, the 2nd Army usually goes between 16th and 9th Armies, or 16th Army and PzGp 3. I usually use it to guard (or advance into) the region comprised by the Velikie Luki-Rzhev axis, plus or minus 50 miles. Sometimes, when I'm AP rich, I'll assign it to AGN, to relieve the burden on AGC. It never really gets stronger than two full Corps though, since that starts overloading whichever AG it is assigned to,

The 40th Pz Corps (2nd and 5th Pz Divisions) goes to whatever area needs a reinforcement of success. It's hard to pass up using two full strength Pz divisions for a JOMP...Just One More Push...[;)]





Mynok -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 3:59:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Bob, I'm trying to drive a stake through the heart of the runaway vampire here. And to show that this is an Axis non problem.




While this seems like a Soviet-oriented point, it really does belong here. I have not seen one suggestion as to how an Axis player is going to deal with a Sir Robinevskey strategy. I've been pondering it myself.

While my experience is limited so an AI GC and a lot of scenario playing, I'm coming to realize I need to make the following changes in my Axis methodology:

1) Pay attention to details. It is easy to overlook possible means that the Soviets can disrupt your LOC and your pockets. I'm two turns behind now in my RTL game against a human. [:-]

2) Get better at logistics, which essentially means get better at rail repair. This is very hard because we don't control most of our rail repair.

3) Know thy enemy. I need to play the Soviets more.



wac29 -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:06:49 PM)

It would seem the debate on the blizzard severity has to have a solution, if there is a change, that forces the German player to make a very heavy tradeoff. Otherwise, if you give a new way to alleviate the special attrition then what sane axis player wouldn’t do it? Coming into 1942 so much stronger vs. 5-15 hexes west seems like an easy decision. It will become very ahistorical.



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:07:37 PM)

Mynok, one thing Andy does in the face of a pure runaway is to double up the FBDs on priority rail lines and concentrate the air transports in those same areas. If the German is knocking on Moscow's door with plenty of clear weather turns remaining...

You can't let the Germans advance at will. A stand must be made no further east than the Dnepr to buy time. And I mean a stand, not a checkerboard. You cannot throw up checkerboards until mud and just dial it in against a good Axis player.



Joel Billings -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:25:29 PM)

Do you have a save before the attack on Moscow that caused it to go from 50 pop to 1 pop? I would have guessed the 5 limit was per attack or capture, but we shouldn't see it go from 50 to 1 from one attack. If you have a save, please send to 2by3@2by3games.com. Thanks.



MrLongleg -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:28:24 PM)

I think the major problem for PBEM is, that a smart Russian player can avoid a lot of harm form the Germans by retreating East fast. That happened in my game. There is no point for a Russian player holding any ground before Kharkov, Moscow and Leningrad, except maybe using the Dnepr in the South for some delay action. When the Germans finally arrive there the Russians can have decent defenses, while the Germans struggle with Logistics.

In my game against Miller41 part of my problems certainly have to do with the fact, that this game is my first GC. Never played one before - even against the AI. All in all I think is is too easy for the Russians to avoid major beatings in 41 - except for the very first turns.



Mynok -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:29:29 PM)


Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.




MrLongleg -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:31:22 PM)

But is there any real penalty for the Russian player if he decides to evacuate Moscow? There is still plenty of space left further East.

Another thing is the evacuation of population every time you take a town. Did that happen in the war?



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:40:34 PM)

Evacuating the Moscow factories will seriously stress the Soviet rails. (Easily exceeds the per turn rail cap, and will take multiple turns to do.) There's a huge complex of armament factories in Tula as well. If the Soviet is being forced to evacuate these areas on top of what he would usually do, something has to give. And Moscow puts out a lot of manpower that will be missed.



gradenko2k -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:46:13 PM)

quote:

I think the major problem for PBEM is, that a smart Russian player can avoid a lot of harm form the Germans by retreating East fast. That happened in my game. There is no point for a Russian player holding any ground before Kharkov, Moscow and Leningrad, except maybe using the Dnepr in the South for some delay action. When the Germans finally arrive there the Russians can have decent defenses, while the Germans struggle with Logistics.


I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.



MrLongleg -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:51:16 PM)

quote:


I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.


You miss a couple of counter attacks - but you save a lot of forces. Just avoid combat and only fight on river lines to delay. The Blizzard will do all the dirty work for you [:D]



MrLongleg -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:54:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Evacuating the Moscow factories will seriously stress the Soviet rails. (Easily exceeds the per turn rail cap, and will take multiple turns to do.) There's a huge complex of armament factories in Tula as well. If the Soviet is being forced to evacuate these areas on top of what he would usually do, something has to give. And Moscow puts out a lot of manpower that will be missed.


Isn't the population evacuated to some towns in Sibiria?



Flaviusx -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 5:57:11 PM)

Some of the pop will get out. But not all of it.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Axis Players Think Tank (1/27/2011 6:07:57 PM)

Part of this is true, the tanks will hit the line eventually, but then again the Germans will know where it is through air recon. If the USSR is truly just fleeing, the mobile units will be cutting out huge swaths of land to be clear of control the next turn. The infantry will be behind, but not that bad as they are moving forward at 12-16 per turn. Sure everything is strung out, but it will come together soon enough - often in a goodly compacted masses.

With a lot of time left in the campaign season, air supply, and prioritized RR repair (as mentioned above)...I would be licking my chops as the Axis player. In 1941 the USSR can be pushed around, a fall back defense would mean just starting closer to the goals.



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