RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (Full Version)

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Klydon -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/6/2011 11:38:03 PM)

He may have some strategy in mind, but has not been able to get it going because PDH remains at least 1 step ahead of him either anticipating what may happen (big snow offensive wrecking most any blizzard offensive plans the Russians may have had) or doing things that the Russians were not expecting at all (big drive to the SE towards the Stalino area seem to catch the Russians napping for instance). 



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 12:32:59 AM)

For the record, I am sick and tired of the old canard "you are doing well because your opponent is awful" followed by "had you played a real player this would not have happened."

The basis of this seems to be the following logic chain: Player A is able to do things that I cannot do --> I am a damn good player, I have read my history, therefore Player A must be playing a weak player.

I admit, I am not the best player. But I have faced broken encirclements, carpet defenses, multiple lines of defense, fall backs, many attacks. I got lucky more than once in recognizing openings, but I have also been stymied in things I wanted to do. That Stalino lunge? I had the 1st and 2nd Panzer Groups ready to attack toward Tula and begin the outflanking of Moscow, but due to an extremely well placed defense that became apparent through air recon, I had no chance to get close. So I struck another way. That way was open because of the defense.

Sometimes, it is about how we react to what is given to us rather than simply stating things are broken or pointing fingers that leads to success.



Aurelian -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 1:53:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

For the record, I am sick and tired of the old canard "you are doing well because your opponent is awful" followed by "had you played a real player this would not have happened."



Yeah. Really no need for that.



mikemcmann -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 5:06:05 AM)

Geez....I must be a "bad player" too since yer whopping me pdh!

It couldn't be that you actually have had some well orchestrated attacks and excellent maneuvering. It has to be your opponent is a half wit troll that just smacks the keyboard with his knuckles why drooling on the mouse.........



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 4:35:58 PM)

Mud

In the Fall I hated the mud, in the Spring, the mud is welcomed. My infantry was in bad straights, my tanks broken down, and my planned "March Snow Madness!!!!" game was not a success. Still, ground had been gained, Soviets surrounded, bridgeheads taken. All in all, while it hadn't worked out to plan, the snow season did help.

Here is a map of the front. You will note that I have bridgeheads across the Don and the Oka. Each of these is at least two hexes deep, so there is less of a movement penalty for crossing the river (no ZOC) once the ice cracks.

The astute and thinking reader will note that in the last turn of Snow Cpt Flam came close to pinching off the Oka bridgehead - I had reserves there, but it was a game attempt, and cause me consternation. Mud should make new attacks much harder here, I had to focus 5 divisions in deliberate attacks just to cause retreat to a single division in order to get rid of these incursions - 170 CV to 12 CV initial...but mud make attacks so much harder.

Now that the lines are straight, I expect far fewer problems, I will no longer attack of course, and I don't think he will either.



[image]local://upfiles/23503/8D13A8559E7344CA90C376E372BF4D48.jpg[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 4:37:37 PM)

One other thing to note. The front is not a nice, even one as I have seen in many AARs. I have bulges, salients, and maybe an isthmus in there somewhere. This will make for a more interesting clear season...



IdahoNYer -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 5:47:47 PM)

That Tula Salient just BEGs to be encircled once good weather returns!



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 6:23:12 PM)

Now you know why I put so much effort into the major river bridgeheads that had rail lines across...



sillyflower -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/7/2011 6:43:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

Geez....I must be a "bad player" too since yer whopping me pdh!

It couldn't be that you actually have had some well orchestrated attacks and excellent maneuvering. It has to be your opponent is a half wit troll that just smacks the keyboard with his knuckles why drooling on the mouse.........

He can't be whippin' your ass more than I am Mr McMann!



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 2:21:24 AM)

The problems of spring have been made clear in other AARs. Once the mud clears there are the alternating turns of Clear-Mud...that is to the benefit of the Soviets. I need two things before summer - 1) rested infantry to hold the line and perhaps make spoiling attacks, and 2) not to get tied up in attacks that don't help me.

The German player needs to know that there will be oodles of level 4 forts everywhere, rather than fearing them, be ready to figure out ways to breach them. Whether a carpet or multiple lines, the fighting is far different in 1942 than 1941. I might have pushed my units too hard in the snow turns, and this could harm me in the coming months. We shall see.

I do have one thing on my mind, the cunning and nastiness of age. While that Tula-Voronezh bulge looks ever so inviting, it is also going to have 3 months of buildup to defend. I don't have to attack there, and if my past record is any indication I will attack elsewhere. Panzer Armies don't have to attack the multiple lines of defenses, they can go elsewhere.

I hope summer is rather interesting.



Altaris -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 2:57:45 AM)

I'm very interested to see how this plays out too. Do you think it's worth attacking further east at this point, especially now that you have Moscow? To me, it would seem that trying to knock down lvl 3-4 forts everywhere and the devastation of counter-attacks by Soviets against weak German units would make attacks at this point too expensive for any gain they might net. I've wondered if it wouldn't be better to really dig in everywhere and let the Russians come to you. Basically bleed them white for any advances they might make. I just don't see any advance going far enough to be worthwhile (which is pretty historical, and largely what cost the Germans so dearly in actual 1942).



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 3:21:25 AM)

That is not really my way. I an a bit too pugnacious. However, I also feel that sitting back plays into the hands of the Soviets in 1942. Far better to use the uneven lines I have created to attack, cut off, and destroy as much of the Soviet army as I can. My units are still on average stronger than the Russians, and nothing matches the Panzer Armies.

1942 is the time to hurt the Soviets, maybe take some more cities and deny them as long as possible...and maybe, just maybe, break the Soviets.



Mynok -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:08:04 AM)


Cut off small chunks in appropriate spots. Don't bother with the big pockets. You haven't got the grunts for it anymore.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:17:01 AM)

Who knows what I will do? I don't, and I am in charge. Most of my "strategy" is running around having fun.

One thing I do know is that the Soviets are at about 4.3 million men when mud hits, fewer than other games or real numbers. I know that units I destroy are both manpower and units that will have to be AP rebuilt. I have concentrated armor, two army groups with 2 Panzer Armies each. It should prove interesting.



Klydon -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:42:50 AM)

The game dynamic also changes in 1942. The Russian must now be careful of his units because he no longer gets them back for free. Command point limitations also mean that infantry and tank corps will be slow to form. To me, the Germans need to be on the look out for guards units and also corps and try to bag and kill them. Wacking a corps just cost a Russian 1/3 of their command points in a given turn plus the amount to replace the units. (In the case of the a infantry corps, it would be 50 overall by the time you pay 10 each division and then 20 to rebuild the corps).

I think 1942 is a year where the German looks to kill absolutely as many Russians as he can and not really worry too much about geographical objectives because the way this game is, there really isn't any single objective beyond Baku (good luck with that!) the Axis can take and lay a meaningful long term hurt on the Russian economy. Kill enough units so he has to choose between corps formation or rebuilding divisions, then maybe the Axis are getting someplace.



ComradeP -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 11:55:47 AM)

My compliments for establishing those bridgeheads, well done.

One thing to watch out for is that, even though fortified hexes can still be cracked, casualties will be higher, which is more of a problem than the CV the forts give the Soviets. Losing ~500 men per attack adds up when you're attacking across at least half the frontline.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 3:26:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The game dynamic also changes in 1942. The Russian must now be careful of his units because he no longer gets them back for free. Command point limitations also mean that infantry and tank corps will be slow to form. To me, the Germans need to be on the look out for guards units and also corps and try to bag and kill them. Wacking a corps just cost a Russian 1/3 of their command points in a given turn plus the amount to replace the units. (In the case of the a infantry corps, it would be 50 overall by the time you pay 10 each division and then 20 to rebuild the corps).

I think 1942 is a year where the German looks to kill absolutely as many Russians as he can and not really worry too much about geographical objectives because the way this game is, there really isn't any single objective beyond Baku (good luck with that!) the Axis can take and lay a meaningful long term hurt on the Russian economy. Kill enough units so he has to choose between corps formation or rebuilding divisions, then maybe the Axis are getting someplace.


My thoughts precisely. Currently trying to do that on a 42 GC I'm playing as the Axis. I can only add to what Klydon said that another change is that the RKKA now can pack some *real* striking power but have a glass jaw. Best opportunities arise from Soviet offensives where the RKKA units break their horns. Just like Kharkov in 1942.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:02:50 PM)

Squads as of the 2nd mud turn. Manpower seems alright for now.



[image]local://upfiles/23503/772E277F8C7544CC87ADF2A225B85DA8.gif[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:04:14 PM)

OOB turn 43. Counting the Romanians and Hungarians, I totally outnumber the Soviets!


[image]local://upfiles/23503/5751F714D78C4664B8EE5C4030FBA1E7.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:24:23 PM)

PDH, what do the Romanians and Hungarians look like in terms of morale? You're probably perfectly aware of it, but if you put them on refit their morale can and will go to 50, so over time their experience will go there too. A number of units start close to 50, but some start with only 35 or so experience, which is pretty awful. Fortified ~50 experience/morale Romanian infantry divisions can generally hold their own against Rifle formations, but they're naturally screwed when the on-map artillery units show up, like all the other Axis units.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 4:40:18 PM)

The Romanians have been refitting since turn 1. Yeah, I learned this early one, and before 1.03 they used to get astronomical morale through cleaning up pockets and refitting.

-edit- quick check shows one Romanian div with a CV of 7, a bunch with 5-6.



ComradeP -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 5:08:13 PM)

OK, good. In August 1943, the Hungarian light divisions will become more useful too as they get an extra infantry regiment and become regular infantry divisions.

Some things/trivia you might not be aware of:

1) The Romanians have 2 different kinds of cavalry brigades/divisions, one is a bit better than the other. Their 1944 TOE's are the same I believe.
2) The Romanian "pioneer" battalion morphs to a sort of reinforced infantry battalion in 1942, with less assault squads but more ground elements.



Schmauser -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/8/2011 8:48:34 PM)

You have played extremely well and have given yourself many options for 42.

A couple of small things to think on. My sense is that your primary objective is to destroy his army since you are unlikely to enjoy a better manpower ratio.

1) Low Soviet manpower means that he has a lot of understrength units on the map. He may be able to form carpets, but those units won't have much staying power or punch. For now.

2) Keep attriting his formations. Take small bites out of the line in the clear turns and mop them up in mud. The bottom line is to keep him from adding a million reds to his force levels and to burn ap's rebuilding lost formations.

3) Pull your best infantry divisions out of the line for rehab. You have done yeoman's work preserving your forces and you should still have some 85+ exp units around. Once refit, form several corps to use as shock troops and use them to break his lines and hold the shoulders of the penetrations.

4) Stay on top of your rail conversions with the eye on maximizing lateral movement.

5) Create the impression of pressure along the entire line. Your maneuverability will allow you to quickly show up and decimate his units in "quiet sectors" before he can shift in his reserves.

6) Concentrate SU's. The STUG, panzerjager and Pioneer BN's need to be with the assualt elements and not the 4 CV infanry divisions that are rehabbing.




PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:23:36 AM)

Conventional wisdom - I should use all four Panzer Armies to try and isolate the Tula-Voronezh Bulge.

The pros are obvious: I would isolate many hundreds of thousands of hapless Soviet troops, lines would be straightened out, the war would be over by Christmas.

However, it is so obvious I am quite sure that it would be stopped quite easily. Certainly Cpt Flam is still hurting when it comes to armaments - he states there is plenty of men in the pool - and the weakened Soviets are perhaps ripe for attack. However, it is also easy to build plenty of defenses in the snow to stop this - and a half-open pocket is no better than what I have now, in some ways worse as I would be stretched out.

Here is a simple graphic of such a move - it would have to be in two parts, the smash one the initial turn and the breakthrough on the following (if possible)


[image]local://upfiles/23503/9181DA3F80EA499881DDC6FEDAD03E96.gif[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:36:36 AM)

I would try it [:)] After all... you know in the end there's going to be the Soviet steamroller... so have fun now that you CAN [8D]

If you manage to form and kill the guys of the pocket, that would be amazing.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:37:27 AM)

However, part of the fun of this game is that the conventional need not happen. Two panzer armies north and south can do damage on their own without needing to help one another. Smaller encirclements are possible, or deep penetrations that need to be covered. Even a seeming move to cuy the bulge can lead to other things.

Another type of plan, perhaps more ambitious but not on the same kind of rigid timetable is below. This one does not expect to gain a lot of encircled units intitially, but it does gain fluidity in the lines - something that is key when starting off with massed entrenchments. The infantry advances shown are not expected, but rather lines of attack that should get the Soviets worrying about encirclement.

The goal of this is an early advance and seeming "just missed" plan that causes the front to become open again. August/September in this plan would be decisive.


[image]local://upfiles/23503/2E04F12FB4D14DCC90BC20BB340D0D62.gif[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:43:54 AM)

Finally, I have all these railroad that I focused on capturing in the snow for a reason. Could I possibly have the gall to get 3 or maybe 4 panzer armies together for a huge fist? The thought is tantalizing...

Note that this only shows the two stages, assault and breakthrough of the four armies. After this the same goal as in the 2nd plan is clear. The front is fluid, and the threat of thousands of tanks and all my panzer divisions driving like madmen is the assumed problem that opens up the whole theater.

This is the plan that makes my ego smile.



[image]local://upfiles/23503/D2FA588330114C1A8D3680C15446F88C.gif[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:46:48 AM)

Now, I don't say that any of these are what I would try. Cpt Flam is always welcome here, and so I try to not give away what I will do. However, my goal in these is to show that thinking small in the position I am in is not the way to win out. I do not think I can win this outright, but there is a golden chance now to maybe make the 1943-44 problems not as troubling for me.

It is up to you do decide if I really mean any of these plans - or if it is just disguise from me.

Really, if you want the truth, I just like colored arrows.



Sabre21 -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 3:58:48 AM)

Heck..I would just bulldoze my way to the urals and cut the map in half and then take his unit entry points...lol.

Seriously though, kill units and take out his manpower centers.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (4/9/2011 4:14:22 AM)

I have so many options I might just have to surrender!



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