RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago...

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Altaris -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 11:51:08 PM)
I didn't mean to insult your opponent, BTW, though I can see how the comment got construed that way. I really wasn't referring to your opponent at all (whom I know nothing about). However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly. I'd venture to guess that your opponent did himself a dis-service if he counter-attacked a lot. While it's a good idea to hit panzers that stick out too far, the Soviets get far better bang for their buck in defense. I'd much rather have a well-rested Soviet division sitting in a lvl 2 fort, wooded hex than to counter-attack and burn him out, even in the event it was successful. Looking back through this AAR, I definitely think your opponent was way behind on pulling his forces back. He had a lot of units in forward positions well after you had surrounded his flanks... that's destined for disaster. Just having the large majority of those forward units pulled back to slow down your pincer movement would've likely been enough to avert that encirclement.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/24/2011 12:23:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch I don't know how many cavalry divisions the soviets have, but I have destroyed 23 of them. I think this will mean a bit fewer of the cavalry corps initially. On turn 10 I had 41 on the map + 4 destroyed + 8 which will arrive as reinforcements until the end of 1941 = 53 divisions

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/24/2011 12:25:03 AM)
(I can add in that I am hunting and routing as many cav divs as I can in the snow too)

76mm -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/24/2011 4:36:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Altaris However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly. Not sure if it is as easy as you make out--have you played as Soviets?

Altaris -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/24/2011 10:44:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 76mm quote: ORIGINAL: Altaris However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly. Not sure if it is as easy as you make out--have you played as Soviets? Yes, been playing a HtH solo game playing both sides, just to see what's possible. It's not hard to go from 0 to 2 forts in 2 turns, even with only 1 division in the hex. 0 to 1 fort is very easy to do in 1 turn. 1 to 2 requires some RR construction support units to get committed to go up in 1 turn with only 1 division in the hex, but it's definitely doable. You can make a lot of progress on that 3rd turn towards lvl 3 too, especially near the cities where population really helps out a lot. This does mean the Soviet has to have a plan of getting troops to the hexes where they want to build, and keeping them static to dig in. The best way to do this is to have the checkerboard defense in your expendable front areas those first few turns, build your first defensive line of 2-3 hexes deep, and keep pulling back. With a good build plan, the Germans are doomed to be stuck in carpet fort hell by August. You can't pull off the type of encirclements PDH has if you have a carpet of Soviets 5 hexes deep in lvl 2-3 forts. It's just not possible. But I do think PDH has the right strategy as Germans to kick out east hard and fast, and keep the Soviets off balance. Still, a Soviet player that has a strong grasp of what to expect can counter those forward movements.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/24/2011 11:38:48 PM)
Altaris, I only see a little problem with your argument [:)] Imagine you want to create such a carpet in x front - a front of 5 hexes would need 25 divisions - a front of 10 hexes would need 50 divisions - a front of 15 hexes would need 75 divisions The thing is you cannot cover the whole front. It's mathematically impossible. And er, given that the Germans have a lot of mobility (4 panzer armies), they simply flank this carpet and keep advancing. As I see it (and that's how I use the carpet thing) you have to choose what route you want to deny to the Germans. You carpet the place and that's all: you are "inviting" the Germans to choose another path. You can also use a carpet to defend a very important place (Moscow, Leningrad, etc.). A last stand that is. That you can do it in x, y and z places: the 10%, 20% of the whole front? [;)] But you CANNOT do that along the whole front. You can't be strong everywhere. It's totally impossible (and I am thinking about the Blitzkrieg). The Germans will simply choose another route or target (and that per se might be a Soviet victory). I'm a carpet psycho and I can tell you I am WEAK in many parts of the front [:)]

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 12:55:51 AM)
And as TD has said, you threaten what he wants, and voila! You can smash what you might want. And here is the kicker...a really hard drive in the first 5 (yes, 5 - I have said elsewhere how do to do this) means that the carpet is weaker still. Finally, a rested Panzer Group can smash a carpet, and a second one can exploit...and the defender better pull out of all of those lovely entrenchments or else he will lose a lot of units. Playing the Germans means being ruthless with your units, even the panzer, in my opinion.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 1:15:50 AM)
Sabre clearly said it: the carpet defense CAN be destroyed in one turn. It is not the most perfect system. If PeeDeeAitch says he can do it too, I believe him [8D] According to [again] Sabre, successive lines of defence are the way to go. And in fact that's what the Soviets did on 1941 to protect Moscow. Yes, they massed many armies in the center but they were defending in depth. Which means I MUST learn that type of defence [sm=00000622.gif]

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 2:34:12 AM)
End of the Snow I attacked and advanced through the mud and snow - my squad strength shows this. There will be big hits coming, I know. Still, I have added many hexes of distance to my lines. Perhaps it is just maskirovka, be in certain places recon shows him to have weakness. This will not stop my plan of retreating the Oder and holding out til 1945. [image]local://upfiles/23503/0A5633A9956F439D84533BCAD8BE9931.gif[/image]

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 2:37:59 AM)
OOB - Turn 24 Here is the OOB at the end of turn 24. Soviet reinforcements have brought their strength back up over the German numbers. Still, I feel pretty good about what has happened. [image]local://upfiles/23503/BC002EC751074C3FABEA0754D430A72E.gif[/image]

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 4:53:33 AM)
No screenshots (because I have given my last snow turn to Flam and await the blizzard start - I don't want him to see my defenses), but a couple of thoughts. I pushed further here, not just Moscow which fell (yes, with successive lines of defense and a carpet of defenders) to two panzer groups and a railroaded in 18th Army) but south of Moscow and north. I do not plan to hold all of this, or even the first 100-150 miles of this. The gain is my buffer. As I have said, just as the Soviets are not encumbered with their Leader who has a funny mustache, neither am I. I don't need to hold fast, to lose virtually all my tanks in the first winter, or to get portions of my army surrounded. I can fall back. I have never tried such a systematic defense before (and frankly if I pulled back just a few hexes in some fronts I could make it at least 4 weeks I believe, given how much I hurt the enemy), but I also promised to try some of the Rubber Band. We have already seen one AAR that has a better off German Army after winter - and that one basically held fast after causing many casualties. I am going a different route. I want to see Color's numbers in a real situation, and see if my army is indeed battleworthy come Spring 1942.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 1:44:44 PM)
BLIZZARD! OMG! My first thought is to disband the entire army, this will save manpower. Then, I figure I should just diband the panzers, because they do poorly in snow. Finally, I actually look at the map and start my plan. Thankfully my line of entrenchments at the Polish Border are still there!

Josh -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 2:04:07 PM)
Yeah that will take him off guard! Disband the entire army and send them all to Paris, for a little R&R at the Moulin Rouge. Your opponent will think at first that his recon is to blame, then when he will find your troops are in "la plus belle France" the Russian hordes will race him to get there first. Obviously, considering the poor state of Russian transports, this army will break down because of attrition. They will be sitting ducks for your totally refreshed troops straight from France. They will never know what hit them. You'll be in Vladivostok before summer. Promised. [8D]

CapAndGown -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 2:11:02 PM)
I would like to see a front line trace at this point. Thanks.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 2:57:48 PM)
Ask and you shall get. Front before I fall back to Warsaw. [image]local://upfiles/23503/A706C0D5CCBC4BE183CD18B2FF2772CA.jpg[/image]

paullus99 -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 3:07:14 PM)
You've got plenty of space to trade for time - you've hurt him pretty bad, so I think you'll get through this in good shape.

Q-Ball -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 3:11:16 PM)
3.4 mil is very low for the Soviets. You can surrender 12 hexes everywhere, and be back at the historical line. You'll have no issues.

karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 3:16:31 PM)
Hold fast! - make him fight for every hex!

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 3:19:40 PM)
I think what did it for me was the Stalino Dash. Without the files to look back, I believe that all the armaments factories were there. Having two fully rested and gassed up Panzer Groups that could have dashed for Moscow from the south (as two were approaching from the north) meant that Flam had to reinforce the center - it was a series of lines and entrenchments. When Stalino fell and the south was encircled the next turn, the balance really swung to my favor - lots of late destroyed troops, a hurt to the armaments, and the ability to advance in the south.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 3:20:39 PM)
I can't hold fast initially - in some places I am spaced out too much and will be infiltrated to death. I do have a fall-back line though that is not too much in the rear. I do not really plan to pull back every turn... -edit- I really did push as much as I could in mud and snow, so in some places if I just stopped I would be a wonderful dream for the soviet cavalry and tanks I can see.

Klydon -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 5:33:07 PM)
Just looking at that big map; did you get across the Kerch straits? Looks like you have a couple hexes on the other side.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:05:39 PM)
Yes, I crossed, and have some wee entrenchments there - but only infantry to hold it. I expect to be back at Kerch by the new year.

randallw -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:06:34 PM)
You will be tempted to buy those big fur hats in the kitsch shops, but it is just a trick, since they will fall apart easily.

jzardos -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball 3.4 mil is very low for the Soviets. You can surrender 12 hexes everywhere, and be back at the historical line. You'll have no issues. What is low? The loses of 3.4 million for Soviets? What is a med and high value for Soviet loses before end 41? Just trying to gauge the metrics of the game as I'm starting a CG41 campaign. BTW: this AAR was very helpful and I only hope I can do as half as wells as your axis have done so far. [&o]

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:28:31 PM)
The Soviets were at 3.5 million troops at the beginning of December and the blizzard. I did well in lowering their numbers, with total losses for the Soviets at 4m.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:31:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: randallw You will be tempted to buy those big fur hats in the kitsch shops, but it is just a trick, since they will fall apart easily. Ha! I am way ahead of you. I used the money that would have been spent on worthless winter clothing on investing in a refrigerator-freezer for every company in the army. They will need those when it warms up again.

jzardos -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:33:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch The Soviets were at 3.5 million troops at the beginning of December and the blizzard. I did well in lowering their numbers, with total losses for the Soviets at 4m. oh, ok I was thinking you were commenting that the Soviets had 3.4 million loses and that was a LOW number. But what you're really saying is that the Soviets have an OB of 3.4 million men and that is low for starting 42? Won't they be back up to 5-6 million by spring? thanks.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 6:38:51 PM)
Oh, the Soviets will have many millions by spring, something like 100,000 airplanes, and 35,000 tanks - they always do. The goal in 1941 is to cut this down as much as possible in order to cut it down further in 1942. Eventually, even the Soviets will run out of gentlemen, I am told.

pompack -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 8:41:22 PM)
Old rule of thumb (hopefully it will be better with 1.04 when it arrives) Two Million: You WILL Lose Three Million You MIGHT Lose Four Million: You probably won't lose Five Million: You might win Six Million: You will win Where Lose means Russians in Berlin, Win means German auto-victory and everything else is neither of the two.

bevans -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/25/2011 10:20:43 PM)
My plan (vs AI at Difficult) was to pull all the Panzers out at the start of the blizzards and just fall back as the Soviets pushed forward. The plan has sort of worked: all my Pz and Mot divs are at 80+ TOEs and 10- Fat so they will be ready for a renewed offensive come summer (actually, I will counterattack during snow; if such a thing exists in the first winter). The fall back bit has proven to be more difficult than expected. I have had issues keeping a continuous line and falling back fast enough, so I chose the former and some divisions have taken a beating because of it. However, few surrenders, no destroyed units and even a couple of successful local attacks, although I will be back between 100-200 miles everywhere. It is the start of Feb and I have about 3.2 million in my OB, the SU about 300K higher, so I think your 'Oder strategy' will work. You are way east of historic and the SU player has taken a lot of losses so you should be able to get through the winter in good enough shape to finish the job in '42. If not, then the first winter really is broken.

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