RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/21/2011 3:15:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Yes, attacking and redeploying at the same time is tricky, but you do have the advantage of moving first in the blizzard turn, so you can get the panzers out of the front line even if you don't get them into winter quarters straight away.


If you do that, though, won't they be exposed to a turn of attrition outside? I thought you had to move them in the last Snow Turn to avoid that. Tank losses are heavy in Blizzard, even if you're just sitting outside.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/21/2011 3:21:08 PM)

I don't mind the tank losses so much. Right now I am sitting with mostly old tanks (and supposedly one panzer div had 4 T-26's in it...), or low on TOE. However, I do want them to be strong in the cities near the front for late Blizzard smash and scoot attacks from their warm hidey holes. Hard to have them ready in time if they start off in bad shape.



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/21/2011 4:09:24 PM)

quote:

If you do that, though, won't they be exposed to a turn of attrition outside? I thought you had to move them in the last Snow Turn to avoid that. Tank losses are heavy in Blizzard, even if you're just sitting outside.


It will depend on the circumstances - I had a shot at Moscow and Rostov on T24 and went for it. Like PDH I am not too worried about attrition on old models, the panzer div TOE changes to the new models and 3 months of mud is enough time to fill them out with the new models.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 4:43:30 PM)

Snow! While it is not clear, it is a final chance to hurt my opponent. Lots of attacks, lots and lots of routes. Armor races forward to re-route. I count at least 65 routed units, perhaps a fifth of the Soviet total strength. Snow is a chance to take advantage of the time and hurt the enemy. Encirclements are hard to pull off safely, but the Soviets are weakened by the long campaign, and it is the last chance for the German infantry to shine before they turn into popsicles. I should make 4 million casualties by the end of snow.



Mynok -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 4:50:57 PM)


I agree. Whack 'em hard. Use those infantry while they actually do damage. Especially beat on cav units.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 5:22:28 PM)

Boring stuff, but an idea where I sit

Losses, turn 22:



[image]local://upfiles/23503/7E845B0C9E56466CBD37CF25FD39A33D.jpg[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 5:22:52 PM)

Destroyed:



[image]local://upfiles/23503/0443C7FED88645728D3A5A5712597AA5.jpg[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 5:23:21 PM)

OOB - Turn 22:



[image]local://upfiles/23503/E9708CE21F7846478686E0822B31A068.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 5:29:15 PM)

I think I'm going to have to write a soviet survival guide - my guess is he has a ton of manpower in his pool, and too much artillery in his SUs.



Klydon -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 7:24:33 PM)

Going to be interesting to see what sort of winter offensive he can mount against you after a beating like that. 



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 7:34:38 PM)

I hope that soviet players don't start complaining that the balance has swung against them, but I think PDH has run a textbook Axis offensive, and should rightly gain his prize of surviving the blizzard in decent shape.

The breakthrough to Stalino was a classic move.



76mm -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 7:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I think I'm going to have to write a soviet survival guide - my guess is he has a ton of manpower in his pool, and too much artillery in his SUs.


This might be helpful, as it is rather counter-intuitive how building too many artillery units would lead to a buildup of unused manpower. You would think that ordering too much artillery would result in a slow build-up for artillery units, not a million soldiers sitting around without rifles...



Encircled -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:07:01 PM)

They are more than enough artillery units to go around in '41 surely without building more?




Klydon -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:14:26 PM)

Historically, the Russians were short artillery during the 41 counter offensive. This is one of the reasons the German hedge hogs worked. The Russians simply did not have the artillery to break the strong points of dug in Germans. 



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:17:05 PM)

I don't want to hijack an AAR thread, but there is some debate amongst the testers about the amount of micromanagement that is needed with regards to manpower and armaments points. In the past, it has only been a necessity after the the blizzard, when both sides have to decide where they want to be strong and can afford to be weaker.

Having to do it in 1941 before the blizzard is a new experience, but it looks like something players on both sides need to be thinking about and making plans for from turn 1.



Encircled -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:20:46 PM)

I haven't got past Turn 13 yet as the Soviets, so I'm only basing my experience on that.

I've not really gone above 4 artillery/howitzer units per army, and that still left a few in reserve



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:24:28 PM)

It's not the number of artillery units, it is the number of artillery pieces in the units, and only by adjusting TOE%s can you divert Armaments points away from artillery and into rifles.



Encircled -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 9:27:06 PM)

Got it

I shall pay careful attention to that from now on



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/22/2011 11:42:04 PM)

No worries about hijacking this AAR, it started out hijacked and went downhill from there



Altaris -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 1:22:46 AM)

I think you'll easily lose Moscow come blizzard though. That's a rather big salient to the south of it. If you haven't experienced the blizzard yet... just wait. Two turns under current implementation, and anything outside of a city or size 4 town will be withered and useless. All I can say is make sure you pull out of Moscow with enough time left to actually get the forces out.

But I do congratulate you on a well run offensive. I do have to think that a good Soviet player would've stopped you well short of this line though. For the Soviets, it's all about getting those forts built far enough back to prevent breakthroughs. Lvl 2-3 forts put a real rainy day on any attempted armor breakthroughs, and it's easy to get them up in the area west of Moscow (with lots of woods to help in the defense to boot).



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 1:49:21 AM)

I expect to lose Moscow, it is in the plans.  That salient south of Moscow will be mostly gone by the end of snow, however.  For the record, I have experienced blizzard, and I have played through it without expecting to see things differently.

I do not really like the backhand statement about my opponent, and yes there were level 2-3 forts in the way of Moscow - they can be broken.  There were at least 5 lines I went through to get there, I just was able to maximize forces because of an early isolation of Leningrad.

While I am not the best German player, I do not like to think that "these results would have been different had you played a good Soviet Player" in the way you mean. Of course, even against the same opponent things would have differed, that is the nature of the game.  However, I like to think that I ran this campaign in such a way as to keep a good opponent on his heels, constantly having to move to reinforce areas I threatened, and over-running in places I was not expected.  Capt Flam consistantly counter-attacked, had multiple lines of defense, checkerboards, and methods to slow me down.  He broke the 1st turn Lvov envelopment, and again on turn 2.  He broke my Smolensk gambit, the initial turn of the Uman Pocket and the Kiev Pocket.

I think more to the point is that I have been playing this game since release day, many games (first against the AI, then in the past month against Humans) have helped me learn.  I have never been ready to draw conclusions based on on experience of winter, one campaign, or what have you.



76mm -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 4:45:47 AM)

I agree, will be interesting to see what he can do in the blizzard with so few Soviet troops, I think he'll have to be very selective about his attacks...



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 4:54:18 AM)

I don't know how many cavalry divisions the soviets have, but I have destroyed 23 of them. I think this will mean a bit fewer of the cavalry corps initially.



color -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 10:42:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I don't know how many cavalry divisions the soviets have, but I have destroyed 23 of them. I think this will mean a bit fewer of the cavalry corps initially.


I'm posting this without a serious checking, so I'm out on a limb here . . .

Doesn't the cavalry division just reappear some turns later as reinforcements and then rebuild?

In other words, you just temporary reduced their cavalry striking power.



cpt flam -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 12:11:18 PM)

for some info
actually there is more than 850 000 in manpower pool
ART is on 50 per cent from a good time
but breakthrou create a big hole in armament factories



karonagames -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 12:48:48 PM)

quote:

but breakthrou create a big hole in armament factories


Roughly how many points didn't get evacuated?



cpt flam -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 3:20:26 PM)

from memory about 240 resting
part in repair
never buy any unit or may be 2 RR X



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 9:39:18 PM)

As the Blizzard fast approaches I am left with the fear that maybe I should have played Go Fish instead of this. I am not a coward, when I was little we played with metal-tipped lawn darts, that is hardcore. However, I am not without hope. From reading previous AARs I have devised the following plan:

Step 1 - Try to hold fast in the belief that my entrenchments will save me
Step 2 - Have entire sections of my line collapse
Step 3 - Play lawn darts again

On second thought that is not so good. Instead I am going to try something along the lines of Color's "Rubberband" defense. I was lucky in taking so much territory, and the fact that I can give it back in small lumps is enticing to me. I have never railed against a Russian Player using the "Run and Hide" defense, it is a game after all and they can try if they want to. I, however, also realize I am not that guy with the funny mustache, and I can surrender ground in winter of 1941-42 in order to come out in March with more strength.

That is in effect my plan. Units in the open suffer horribly, units in cities suffer only kinda horribly, but they get cut off. Instead, I plan to allow my men to suffer horribly as I surrender ground at a moderate pace. The Finns in the north will help create a wonderful salient for 1942, and I have 15-20 hexes in the north to fall back to get to the actual 1942 start line.

In the center, I have pushed through snow, and I will push to the last turn - routing as I go. I have at least 12 hexes back to Kursk/Kharkov, and more in some places. Hell, it is just steppe anyway, and kind of boring.

In the far south there is the Romanian supermen...I mean Mountain Corps, the German Mountain units, and the Stalino Line as well as enough level 4 towns to help out. here I think I will be pushed back the least as an energetic defense is possible.

Overall, I am not defeatist about Blizzard, this will be my 4th against a human - and my 1st since 1.03 (though I have had 2 AI games since then). I know, I will end up back on the Bug, but at least I go in like I did the times before: Fat, Drunk, and Stupid.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 9:42:44 PM)

Also, let it be known that I might not actually do anything I talk about here. I sometimes make plans, but I don't follow through - I am more about seeing what the turns gives. I think I am too Right-Brained.



Mynok -> RE: Misplaced Victories - They were here a second ago... (3/23/2011 10:23:51 PM)

You just need lawn darts that pack HE warheads.

quote:

Fat, Drunk, and Stupid


Method actor? [:'(]



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