RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno

RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (Full Version)

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Sabre21 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:16:51 AM)
The Germans were better trained than their Soviet counterpart at this stage of the war, but by no means were they supermen. I've frustrated quite a few German testers and guys like Pieter and Flavio have learned to do the same. Right now there is enough concentration of German forces in that area to take the city before mud hits. I don't know what the fort levels are but from what I see based on what both of you have here, both hexes of Leningrad should fall in 5 turns, maybe 4 with a little luck. At this point all you can do is hope he makes some grevious mistakes. As for the Soviet deployment, you have nobody digging in on any of the ports that are key to the city's survival and those units along both sides of the Neva should be level 4 forts by know with strong infantry stacks in each. The city is doomed if the German gets across the Neva and takes that port where your Army Hq is. The current Soviet deployment south of the city is just begging to get trapped. The bulk of the strength is on the front row with little real depth and once thru it the panzers will be free to encircle that horde. Oleg..while the Germans are extremely difficult to play against in 41 (as they should be), they can be slowed down to a crawl. There are tactics and counter tactics each side can use to overcome the other. What it boils down to is who makes the fewer mistakes, although the Soviets can actually make a few more than the Germans can and still come out on top.

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:23:37 AM)
Sabre this screenshot is at the beginning of my turn. During my turn I took care of those units "begging to be trapped", but as for the rest of your post, I agree, he will probably take LG. He'll do that by brute force alone, which I am not sure how the game should really work. Some weeks ago the community was saying "LG can't be taken against human" but in recent HvH games we see a trend of LG routinely being taken, by hook or by crook, ie by encirclements and mobility or simply by brute force alone! It appears that taking LG will become a routine thing for German players. It will make this particular game more interesting, so in the name of more readers to this and Senno's AAR let him have it if he wants it this badly... [8D]

JAMiAM -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:26:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I've frustrated quite a few German testers and guys like Pieter and Flavio have learned to do the same. Yeah, I'd say you've frustrated me. By not taking up my challenge of finding a strong Soviet player, that is. Pieter and Flavio too, since neither of them have sent me a turn in almost three weeks. Of course, if that is strong Soviet play - boring a waiting Axis player into submission - than you guys have written the book on it...[:D] Anyhow, since Speedy (who's never played the Soviets before) has taken up the challenge, I hope, and expect, you and the others to coach him safely from the sidelines so that he has all the guidance he needs...[;)] [/thread highjack]

Mynok -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:36:29 AM)
Well, some of us have definitely been coaching Senno up on his use of the Germans. You do want us to show him how to make supermen out of them right? [;)]

Sabre21 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:42:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JAMiAM quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I've frustrated quite a few German testers and guys like Pieter and Flavio have learned to do the same. Yeah, I'd say you've frustrated me. By not taking up my challenge of finding a strong Soviet player, that is. Pieter and Flavio too, since neither of them have sent me a turn in almost three weeks. Of course, if that is strong Soviet play - boring a waiting Axis player into submission - than you guys have written the book on it...[:D] Anyhow, since Speedy (who's never played the Soviets before) has taken up the challenge, I hope, and expect, you and the others to coach him safely from the sidelines so that he has all the guidance he needs...[;)] [/thread highjack] I think we've all been burned out pretty good but I'm regaining another wind here and may in the not distant future look for a game.

Sabre21 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:54:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko Sabre this screenshot is at the beginning of my turn. During my turn I took care of those units "begging to be trapped", but as for the rest of your post, I agree, he will probably take LG. He'll do that by brute force alone, which I am not sure how the game should really work. Some weeks ago the community was saying "LG can't be taken against human" but in recent HvH games we see a trend of LG routinely being taken, by hook or by crook, ie by encirclements and mobility or simply by brute force alone! It appears that taking LG will become a routine thing for German players. It will make this particular game more interesting, so in the name of more readers to this and Senno's AAR let him have it if he wants it this badly... [8D] That's good to hear that this was at the start of your move. Your real weak spot from what I saw was the area just a couple hexes south of the Neva east of his panzers. I'm sure you blocked that. I would be wary of a hook up across the Neva or due east then north to take the ports.

Klydon -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:39:37 AM)
Getting to the point that a hook attempt is going to be a trap.

Apollo11 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 10:28:31 AM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko Now if someone tells me Germans are not supermen.... Leningrad, he just bulldozes his way forward, no subtlety, no flanking, no manouver, just brutal force attacking forward. And he will probably get there. His forces suffer no morale loss... Obviously, since the morale in WITE is gained by winning, and having to fight day and night away from home with your buddies dying bad food no toilet paper and your wife back home leaving you for the drug addict member of the motorcycle gang does not affect morale as long as you win battles. Fritzes have no supply problems, no feelings, no brain, no soul, they fight like goddam robots.... Fatigue, if they suffer any, I must conclude it has no or negligible influence on their combat performance... I really don't see what could I have done differently regarding LG defence. If anything, I alotted MORE units for this sector, and better units. I even transferred some of them very good Kiev tank and mech units here since his southern opening was pretty weak. I put them in good defensive terrain. I let them build forts, best commanders, tons of support units, best available C&C structure, whole nine yards.... *He didn't outsmart me, he didn't flank me, he didn't do anything I could not predict....* And yet, his god in this game appears to be simply stronger than my god and there is nothing I can do. (May be logical after all since commies are atheists LOL!) In the memorable words of Mongol leader Hulagu: "Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations. Only those who beg our protection will be safe. Hasten your reply before the fire of war is kindled. Resist and you will suffer the most terrible catastrophes. We will shatter your mosques and reveal the weakness of your God and then we will kill your children and your old men together." Now, imagine old von Leeb, AGN leader, saying this in his message to LG Front Commander LOL This is funny and if you know von Leeb and imagine him saying this it's even more funny. BTW I didn't see Hulagu on the list of WITE beta testers but he appears to have played WITE beta because above description is incredibly accurate regarding German soldiers in WITE summer 41! WHAT DOES THIS FREAKING GAME WANT ME TO DO TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT SUPERMEN ON EQUAL TERMS? OK, lets forget fighting on anything remotely resembling equal terms, what do I have to do to inflict casualties, fatigue, bad omens, TOE losses, constipation, diarhhea, ANYTHING to these ubermen??? German supermen are simply unstoppable, and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. OK rant over. Having said all that, I don't feel too bad about LG. If he takes the city by brute force, there will be no encirclements and I will retreat in good order. Since his position elsewhere is not too threatening, him taking LG might in fact make the game more interesting long term. So, let him have it but the way the game allows him to take it - by ubermen force - frankly leaves bad taste in my mouth. Nevermind, the blizzards will come and then I will have my own supermen. Hulagu will then be Mother Theresa compared to what my hearless ubermen will do to his German winter wussies. Elsewhere, not much happened in the last couple turns. My retreats described above worked like charm, and he spent lots of MPs to just take the area I left. He had some half hearted and not entirely successful attempts at enciclements in the south, but the most interesting development is around LG at the moment. [image]local://upfiles/1633/471FB15F3BAF42368A72B09A9CB214C5.jpg[/image] Ahhh... Oleg... The Leningrad is 99% sure gone... Both Andy and I told you that you need to dig around Leningrad very early (preferably on day 1 of campaign)... BTW, two very very important axioms: #1 Never ever underestimate your opponent! #2 Hope for the best but plan for the worst! Leo "Apollo11"

karonagames -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 2:02:27 PM)
#3 A bad workman blames his tools.

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 2:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BigAnorak #3 A bad workman blames his tools. True, but with bad tools even a good workman can't do much [;)] If you think 25=78 stack is OK, after daily fighting through bazillion forts and swamps for many turns (weeks), with shining green morale, then fine, I rest my case. These guys don't suffer anything from their war experience - no losses, no morale drop, no nothing. Fatigue? If they are fatigued, I don't see it affects them much. For me these are supermen, and the game gives me zero possibility of counterattack, seriously reducing my options to digging and retreat. I can work with that, Big, and I am doing pretty good in this game overall. However it still leaves bad aftertaste, and being opinionated and loudmouthed I will keep on repeating that....

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 2:58:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 #2 Hope for the best but plan for the worst! Leo, with 1=1 ants vs German supermen that's all I do.

karonagames -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 3:25:06 PM)
Sorry, forgot to put the "I'm-not-being-serious" smiley.[:)] But, to be serious, and without seeing the fort levels on the hexes, the defence of Leningrad is not making best use of the available resources, if there are no entrenchments protecting the rail-line into the city, and the hexes north and south of the river just east of the city, then the back door to the city is wide open - just like my game with Trey. edit: My standard digging plan by turn 6. Speedy's supermen didn't cross the Luga, let alone get in the back door to Leningrad. [image]local://upfiles/21516/A1778587936E46D998CA3CA57E087CCF.jpg[/image]

Apollo11 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 4:09:46 PM)
Hi all, Oleg, try best to secure all ports to the north-east - this is needed for supply! Leo "Apollo11"

Q-Ball -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 4:19:57 PM)
I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents. In my game vs. Von Beanie, I think I'll take it, but his defense was much tougher this time, despite the fact that I committed lots of extra stuff to AGN. And in the end, he made one mistake, and I was only able to take advantage of it because I got lucky. I bet that's the last time he loses Leningrad to anyone, the way he played it otherwise. Level-4 forts along the Neva defended by 3-deep stacks are very tough to beat. That should be the goal of any Soviet player, even if it means an early withdrawl to the Volkhov for the rest of the front. I think you made some mistakes in your defense Oleg, that if you hadn't made, you would be in better position. Even so, I look at your situation, and I still you could be OK, but you need to buy time to dig. Stack 9 division-sized units along the Neva, no less, and get some construction units into the HQ there. Start digging along the Volkhov, and make a withdrawl there. I do think keeping Leningrad land-connected IS very difficult against a good German opponent. That ship has probably sailed for you. Your critical mistake was not digging-in at the Neva Backdoor hex. A good Soviet player won't make that mistake, not after seeing a few AARs......

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 4:32:39 PM)
I appreciate all the advice given... [:D] but some of you seem to miss my point... Germans should not be able to take LG the way Senno did (or most probably will) in this game. Shining green with morale, happy and merry, after slugging thru swamps and forts.... Having said that, in fact I think LG will fall to Axis routinely, and taking it is not hard at all. My preferred method is going far to the east and south, concentrating AGN + 1 corps borrowed from AGM NE of Velikye Luki and linking with the Finns. VERY VERY hard to stop for Soviets, because he HAS to man the Luga approach in any case. This approach has additional benefits that if it succeeds it bags lots of Sov units in the LG area. Bulldozing approach does not encircle many units. Try it as German it's surprisingly easy, and makes all his defensive preparations in the Luga area moot. To stop this, Soviet would have to send many many units to Velikye Luki area right from the turn one, something Sov players will be reluctant to do.

Speedysteve -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 4:40:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BigAnorak Sorry, forgot to put the "I'm-not-being-serious" smiley.[:)] But, to be serious, and without seeing the fort levels on the hexes, the defence of Leningrad is not making best use of the available resources, if there are no entrenchments protecting the rail-line into the city, and the hexes north and south of the river just east of the city, then the back door to the city is wide open - just like my game with Trey. edit: My standard digging plan by turn 6. Speedy's supermen didn't cross the Luga, let alone get in the back door to Leningrad. Don't forget though Bob I was 'nerfed' by Uber Swamps and the Armaments thing during our game....those damn tools and bad workmen [;)]

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:07:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Speedy Don't forget though Bob I was 'nerfed' by Uber Swamps and the Armaments thing during our game....those damn tools and bad workmen Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)?

Speedysteve -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:08:33 PM)
Affected both SU and Axis

karonagames -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:20:23 PM)
quote: Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)? I was a million men light until turn 14, so I was fighting with one arm tied behind my back, but Speedy feels bad enough already.[;)]

76mm -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:23:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents. I think you're probably right, but it is still easy to screw up (speaking as someone with experience). For the Sovs it is a difficult balancing act between defending the city itself and defending the ports (and the Finnish border) to the east. Since you need to dig in as deeply as possible, to a certain extent you have to decide on your deployment on Turn 1, before knowing where the Germans will focus their attack, whereas the German can adjust his attack on the fly to a much greater extent. Throwing a bunch of unfortified 1 CV units in the path of the attacking panzers is pretty much useless. One thing which exacerbates the problem for me is that my recon planes often only fly a couple of flights, and it can be difficult to tell what the Germans are up to as the approach Lgrad. Why my bombers and other planes refuse to fly recon missions sort of escapes me... [EDIT] And I tend to agree with Oleg that it seems to be too easy for the Germans to simply bull their way into Lgrad.

Sabre21 -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:27:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents. In my game vs. Von Beanie, I think I'll take it, but his defense was much tougher this time, despite the fact that I committed lots of extra stuff to AGN. And in the end, he made one mistake, and I was only able to take advantage of it because I got lucky. I bet that's the last time he loses Leningrad to anyone, the way he played it otherwise. Level-4 forts along the Neva defended by 3-deep stacks are very tough to beat. That should be the goal of any Soviet player, even if it means an early withdrawl to the Volkhov for the rest of the front. I think you made some mistakes in your defense Oleg, that if you hadn't made, you would be in better position. Even so, I look at your situation, and I still you could be OK, but you need to buy time to dig. Stack 9 division-sized units along the Neva, no less, and get some construction units into the HQ there. Start digging along the Volkhov, and make a withdrawl there. I do think keeping Leningrad land-connected IS very difficult against a good German opponent. That ship has probably sailed for you. Your critical mistake was not digging-in at the Neva Backdoor hex. A good Soviet player won't make that mistake, not after seeing a few AARs...... Your statement is generally true unless the German player throws a lot of additional force to the north, then nothing the Soviet player can do can stop it. But then the Germans will sacrifice elsewhere to gain the city. I begin the defense of the city right on turn 1 and it continues to grow until such time the Germans have either advanced to it or have abandoned their attempt. Time is essential so slowing the advancing forces by whatever means possible is key to survival. The early construction of forts along both sides of the Neva, defending in depth, reorgoanization of the C&C, and the placement of adequate forces in theatre are but a few of the steps needed.

Speedysteve -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 5:34:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BigAnorak quote: Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)? I was a million men light until turn 14, so I was fighting with one arm tied behind my back, but Speedy feels bad enough already.[;)] Bob's in a teasing mood today so I won't rise to it [:'(] Affected both parties but the SU more. P.S. Bob you better hope I never woop your **** at one of our games [:'(]

Ketza -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 6:17:38 PM)
I am of the opinion that if the Axis player commits enough extra resources that Leningrad should indeed fall. If in 1941 AGN had an extra Panzer army at its disposal and another 5-10 infantry divisions they would have rather easily mopped the place up. I mean they came rather close without the extra assets most Axis players commit in this game. The only question then is what negative impact does this have on other parts of the front. thats what the Soviet player needs to think about if that amount of power gets focused on leningrad.

Q-Ball -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 6:20:51 PM)
Without giving away too much, I am living this right now in my AAR with Von Beanie. I committed an extra Panzer Corps turn 1, and sent pretty much all the Infantry Reinforcements that way. Plus, all the Heavy Artillery that starts in 4th and 9th Armies. The result? I should take Leningrad, but I am suffering on other fronts. Choices of war. It is an interesting RL question: Could the Germans have taken Leningrad if they put more of a priority on it? I think YES, though that would have meant giving up the drive on Moscow IRL probably.

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 6:48:49 PM)
Q-Ball, my advice to you and my opponent Senno would be the same. However he's my opponent and it would be stupid of me to advice him [:D] You're not so I can. I don't know what units Senno borrowed from other fronts, if any, to bulldoze his way to LG, but it's true his position elsewhere on the map is not stellar so he might have borrowed some, being ready to pay the price. You both should have taken only infantry from other sectors, and go for the Velikye Luki then NE way, not bulldozing towards LG proper. VL aproach is truely frightening if it succeeds because it traps lots of units in LG pocket. Compared to that losing LG like this, in orderly manner, seems not too threatening. Still, it feels wrong and frustrating from gameplay POV. Simply can't stop the supermen - not because they outmanouvred me, rather just because they're supermen!

Encircled -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/14/2011 7:01:19 PM)
The VL approach is a cast iron bitch to deal with, as it threatens so much of your line, and you don't have the troops to do a proper defence. If you can slow him right down, then its a disaster for the Germans, but its bloody hard to slow him down!

mmarquo -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/15/2011 2:13:23 AM)
"WHAT DOES THIS FREAKING GAME WANT ME TO DO TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT SUPERMEN ON EQUAL TERMS? OK, lets forget fighting on anything remotely resembling equal terms, what do I have to do to inflict casualties, fatigue, bad omens, TOE losses, constipation, diarhhea, ANYTHING to these ubermen??? " The best thing you can do: stop defeating yourself by granting the Axis "ubermensch" status; this is a defeatest psychology which only breeds defeat. Concentrate on winning, not excusing defeat. Not One Step Back. Fight - Do Not Whine. Marquo [:)]

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/15/2011 2:20:31 AM)
I can't really explain it Marquo, I like your posts and they make me smile even though we happen to disagree on most issues. Maybe it's the smiling commisar in your avatar picture doing the trick? [:D] Anyhow, yes I am fighting here, and not whining, but when something happens that is in my opinion flawed, I will make sure forum knows about it [:D]

bevans -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/15/2011 8:04:54 PM)
The Germans got into the suburbs of Leningrad then Hitler decided he would rather have a few million starved Russians than conquered Russians and South went the panzers and up went the siege lines. Sorry, I think whining about the Germans taking Leningrad in '41 is just that, whining. The Germans can take ANYTHING they want in '41, they just can't take EVERYTHING. It doesn't take ubermen, just the Wehrmacht at the height of its powers vs an SU still suffering the aftershocks of purges, ineffective TOEs and a change in strategic from the Stalin Line to forward defense - and the ensuing quick loss of a million or two soldiers. Most of which is pretty accurately modeled in the game. I don't see this result as ahistoric (except in the sense it didn't happen - not COULDN'T happen), just a different prioritization of goals. And trust me, as a German player, the Panzers really do suffer from fatigue and erosion of fighting power, rendering them less effective as the campaign continues. They are still better than anything the SU has but how exactly that is not an accurate reflection of the early months of the war, I would be interested to hear. Finally, isn't this AAR all about how the Germans can't survive the first winter. Your 'turn' is still to come, when Senno will be whining about Soviet supermen.

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno (3/16/2011 12:51:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bevans The Germans can take ANYTHING they want in '41, they just can't take EVERYTHING. Finally, isn't this AAR all about how the Germans can't survive the first winter. Your 'turn' is still to come, when Senno will be whining about Soviet supermen. Well bevans, I am strating to accept your line of thinking. On some philosophical, Zen, eastern mysticist level that is indeed the best way to accept the supermen of this game [:D] "It is just the way universe works, let him take whatever he wants and wait for my own superman period" LOL

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