Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf?

Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 1:45:14 PM)
The latest patch is out which is basicly all a German nerf. AGN is uneffected [:)] HQ build-ups are not needed in this area of operations, because of the lower cost of rail repairs. The rail lines in AGN's area are only more then 20 MP from rail heads for one turn, but not a port. So if they are needed they always be withen range anyways. AGC will have to make a few minor ajustments but should't be to big of an issue if you plan out railheads better, only a few turns lost. [:)] AGS area of operations has been hit with a huge German nerf stick to say the least [&:] This will really unbalance the game vs good SHC players. Now the south is not really a factor any more, the distances that need to be covered are to huge to simply get to the historical lines of November 1941, which will never happen vs a average to good Russian. Now the Russian player can draw off at least 20+ divisions and not be hurt at all in the south. The the distances can't be covered if the Russian simply put up a minimal screen of troops. Conclusions: This means that the Russian player can make getting even close to the historical Leningrad or Moscow lines close to impossible and 100% impossible to get to the historical southern lines. Because the SHC can transfer atleast 20 to 30 divisions from the south to center or north on the first turn and send 75% of reserves to center or north the following turns. The south will be totally under control for the SHC evn with 20 less divs, because a screen of units is more then enough to delay the German advances. This in turn will free up a huge # of AP points for the SHC because they will not need to move as many factories. This will lead to more stronger SHC units before winter, many more troops and lines that are not close to the historical lines of Nov 1941. This of course with the new lower MP costs for SHC units in the winter will make for a much larger then historical defeat for the GHC during the blizzard of 1941-1942 and not close to historical lines for the spring of 1942 ect ect down the line. The last several patchs have over reached for one side then the other, which is normal with any new game. They are always headed in the right direction, but always over reaching for one side or the other each patch. Keep up the good work. I have to say that after the last patch the GHC was over powered for sure, but now we are back to the SHC being over powered during he winter months. I think that from 1942 on the game is about right, but the really hard part is getting the 1941 results close to historical. Which historical is not really the point of the game, its the what ifs that make it worth playing. What if GHC really pushed for Leningrad, what if GHC really pushed in the center or south ect ect. I think this patch is over reaching and has unbalanced the south, which in turn has unbalanced the center and north. I think this last patch should have not included: 1. MP decrease for SHC units in winter. Why this was needed? The cav units alrdy can exploit any breakthrough. I think this last patch should have included: 1. A nerf to the over powered SHC rail system. As far as the HQ build up goes yes it was 100% way over powered, but now its usless on all fronts. I think if you simply only let the GHC use 1 or 2 HQ build-ups per turn this would have solved the HQ build-up problem which was unbalancing the game in the GHC favor. Now you have over reached with this patch the SHC is way over powered. Just my thoughts I would like to hear yours. I really like the game an will be playing for yrs to come and don't mind public beta testing. So I will see you on the battle field [8D] Pelton

Ketza -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 3:58:43 PM)
I really felt that 1941 was pretty close to where it should be. The HQ buildup change and the decreased Soviet movement in the winter just puzzle me as to why they were needed changes at all. I have had no problem at all stopping the Axis in my Soviet games except one of the first I played. In my most recent game I have actually been giving ground and units on purpose in the hope that the game actually goes past turn 18. You are correct that nerfing the HQ buildup allows the Soviet more flexibility in shuffling forces in my opinion. It also makes it easier for the Soviet as you do not have to defend in depth as deep. Also I have only seen one or 2 AARs where the Axis runs rampant and its usually because of a different level of game knowledge. Even then the Soviets bounce back. There has only been one AAR (I am pretty sure)where the Soviet was in such a bad position that they surrendered in 1942. I love the game however and like the fact they continue to tweak it. I am indeed looking forward to the day its balanced and complete.

Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 4:53:14 PM)
It was felt that HQ buildups were too easily abused via leapfrogging tactics that more or less allowed the German to ignore his logistics and keep his spearhead moving at full MP each and every turn.

Sabre21 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 5:04:44 PM)
What Flavio said. There was no nerf. The area down south is pretty much unaffected due to the proximity of the Rumanian border and that supply base. Pieter and myself are currently playing a pbem with me as the Germans. We are on turn 3 so far. Pieter by the way is a very experienced Soviet player. I would rate him in the top 3 Soviet testers we have. None the less, and despite checkerboarding, on T3 I am 50 miles north of Pskov, at the river bend in the center, and sitting on the outskirts of Kiev and Odessa with Tarnopol, Proskurov and Vinnitsa in my possesion. I have yet to use Hq-build-up although I am in position with 6 different panzer corps, 2 in each army group capable of using it next turn if I choose to do so.

JAMiAM -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 5:23:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton I think this last patch should have not included: 1. MP decrease for SHC units in winter. Why this was needed? The cav units alrdy can exploit any breakthrough. Actually, this was always in the game. The problem was that it was not documented anywhere in the manual. Neither in the terrain effects table, nor in the First Winter rules. In other words, it was a "hidden rule" that once discovered, we determined should be made known to the players. For what it's worth, I think the HQ Buildups should be on a slightly longer leash, of 30 MPs from railhead. Other than the too short a leash of 20 MPs, I think that the rule change was a good compromise solution. You should have seen what Andy was arguing for...[X(][;)]

Helpless -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/21/2011 5:27:32 PM)
I think the build up in current form should disappear. The only reason it is not yet, because appropriate solution requires a lot more complex changes to the game code.

sillyflower -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 12:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx It was felt that HQ buildups were too easily abused via leapfrogging tactics that more or less allowed the German to ignore his logistics and keep his spearhead moving at full MP each and every turn. +1

Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 12:59:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 What Flavio said. There was no nerf. The area down south is pretty much unaffected due to the proximity of the Rumanian border and that supply base. Pieter and myself are currently playing a pbem with me as the Germans. We are on turn 3 so far. Pieter by the way is a very experienced Soviet player. I would rate him in the top 3 Soviet testers we have. None the less, and despite checkerboarding, on T3 I am 50 miles north of Pskov, at the river bend in the center, and sitting on the outskirts of Kiev and Odessa with Tarnopol, Proskurov and Vinnitsa in my possesion. I have yet to use Hq-build-up although I am in position with 6 different panzer corps, 2 in each army group capable of using it next turn if I choose to do so. There was no nerf? Lol do you think we are that stupid to beleive that fairytale? 100% of the changes were 100% to nerf the GHC, thats the facts jack. EVERYTHING in this patch was to nerf the GHC, there was nothing in the patch to address a single SHC issue other then positives. Yes yes your at them positions big deal any average GHC player can get to them, now you are stuck. Barely in reach of your supply heads that move 3 or 4 hexs a turn, in other words your out of options other then the boring small breakthoughs. North: The normal right hook in the north is 100% not possible. It will take way to long to move railheads past the lake, which gives the SHC way to many turns to stop you. In other words your now stuck with the historical BORING seige of Leningrad. Center: Your at the land bridge big deal again, your waiting on the railheads, PLUS the south is 100% not safe, there is noway the GHC can get close to the normal historical Nov 1941 lines. Which means you will be facing atleast 20+ more units. The normal Marsh incirclement is 100% not doable by turn 5-7 now. So in other words the center is now BORING, you got to wait on railheads or waste 100"s of tanks tring to pound out a few hexs a turn for very little space. The historical lines of Nov 1941 are clearly not doable vs a good SHC player. South: Again your stuck doing gimp incirclements and waiting on railheads where u are now. The Nov 1941 lines are just not even close to doable vs a good SHC player. In other words Boring after turn 3-5. You play tested to turn 3? I alrdy play tested vs myself to turn 7 now 2 times. I have a job 3 kids, their are no magic bullets for the SHC, its a basic defence, checher board and counter attack when possible. The game needed some minor tweaks bro, but this is really way way over reaching. Before the patch vs a good SHC player the South historical Nov 1941 lines were not doable to start with. Center was about right and the North, Leningrad was a good possiblity. So on balance the game was close to historical with a few what ifs, now its just a bore. There are no options after turn 4 other then very gimp pockets and grinding out a few hexs a turn, which will cause uber high losses, which will lead to a disaster for the average to beginner GHC player. This patch will be a big turn off for many new comers to the game that want to play the GHC side. Clearly this patch was not play tested at all, thats why your doing it after the fact. It was based more on politics of mismatchs and not what was needed to balance the game. Pelton

Farfarer61 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 2:18:57 PM)
Of course I use Build Up ruthlessly, but it is sure as heck not IGNORING logistics - it is a massive gamble, once which could lose me the war against my opponent. Burning through 100,000 trucks on the quasi-roads of Russia and expending all my Admin points (zero leadership changes, swapping Sus or other 'luxuries') to do "HQ Leapfrog and re-assignment" is NOT a freebie. It is the ability to make a strategic-operational decision to put the needed resources into an attempt to "win the war by Christmas". As has been commented upon, this leapfrogging also costs all your tanks, so your Panzer Divs are strength 5 motorized infantry with 48 MP and chronic high fatigue by turn 10. My current Sov opponent is very good, using aggressive checkerboard, superb selection of which hexes to fortify or defend. I doubt I could have gotent very far without a god spearhead each turn chopping up rail lines. It is otherwise a good Beta, thanks.

Mehring -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 2:23:02 PM)
I've managed to win both my pbems as German so easily I now play Russian, it's more challenging. And I never used an HQ buid up once. Not even ONCE. Still the lousy wannabe blitzkriegers displacing their own inadequacies onto the game.

Farfarer61 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 2:43:50 PM)
Lousy indeed - that's why I need Build Up in the first place :) Actually an interesting Beta with No HQ Build Up would be any of: a) no ZOC for Depleted and Unready Units b) no ZOC penalties for Axis Armoured/mech units vs ( Non-Guards?) Div size Sov Inf units, and reduced for Inf.

heliodorus04 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 2:51:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Farfarer Of course I use Build Up ruthlessly, but it is sure as heck not IGNORING logistics - it is a massive gamble, once which could lose me the war against my opponent. Burning through 100,000 trucks on the quasi-roads of Russia and expending all my Admin points (zero leadership changes, swapping Sus or other 'luxuries') to do "HQ Leapfrog and re-assignment" is NOT a freebie. It is the ability to make a strategic-operational decision to put the needed resources into an attempt to "win the war by Christmas". As has been commented upon, this leapfrogging also costs all your tanks, so your Panzer Divs are strength 5 motorized infantry with 48 MP and chronic high fatigue by turn 10. My current Sov opponent is very good, using aggressive checkerboard, superb selection of which hexes to fortify or defend. I doubt I could have gotent very far without a god spearhead each turn chopping up rail lines. It is otherwise a good Beta, thanks. While your strategic tradeoff analysis is sound, I think you're overlooking one part of the gamesmanship you engage in: If you succeed, you win the game early (say, 1942 or 1941 is early). If you fail, you can just concede defeat in 1941 (oh, I'm out of trucks, supply range, and replacements - I'm doomed, nice game, I surrender). In both of these cases, you've wasted the Soviet player's time because he never had much of a chance to actually play. If you won, he was bludgeoned by the gamesmanship enabled by HQ buildup, encircled in pocket after pocket without any ability to counter-attack (at least outside blizzard). If you failed, well, you just played about a year's worth of the game in which the Soviet was doing little else but maneuvering his 'ants' (to use Oleg's quite accurate term), the 1-1 divisions of 1941, to try to cost you more in trucks. No disrespect to you intended. It's a valid strategy given mechanics. It's just rather unsporting to your Soviet opponent to use this mechanic thusly. I do think that 20 MPs is ridiculously small for the range of buildup (I'm for the 30 MP/20 hexes distance myself). And as a competent German player, I would put it this way (mirroring some of what Mehring believes, I think): Any competent German player should only RARELY need to use HQ buildup to accomplish his goals. If you know how to maneuver units to maximize your supply situation, a 20-MP buildup range is all but useless. In other news, some of you might need to see your gynecologist.

Ketza -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 4:53:10 PM)
The problem is it is becoming less attractive to play as Axis as it seems to be an exercise in futility. Not complaining just pointing out the fact. I have already seen in most of my Soviet games Axis players throwing in the towel very early.

Sabre21 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 5:07:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 What Flavio said. There was no nerf. The area down south is pretty much unaffected due to the proximity of the Rumanian border and that supply base. Pieter and myself are currently playing a pbem with me as the Germans. We are on turn 3 so far. Pieter by the way is a very experienced Soviet player. I would rate him in the top 3 Soviet testers we have. None the less, and despite checkerboarding, on T3 I am 50 miles north of Pskov, at the river bend in the center, and sitting on the outskirts of Kiev and Odessa with Tarnopol, Proskurov and Vinnitsa in my possesion. I have yet to use Hq-build-up although I am in position with 6 different panzer corps, 2 in each army group capable of using it next turn if I choose to do so. There was no nerf? Lol do you think we are that stupid to beleive that fairytale? 100% of the changes were 100% to nerf the GHC, thats the facts jack. EVERYTHING in this patch was to nerf the GHC, there was nothing in the patch to address a single SHC issue other then positives. Yes yes your at them positions big deal any average GHC player can get to them, now you are stuck. Barely in reach of your supply heads that move 3 or 4 hexs a turn, in other words your out of options other then the boring small breakthoughs. North: The normal right hook in the north is 100% not possible. It will take way to long to move railheads past the lake, which gives the SHC way to many turns to stop you. In other words your now stuck with the historical BORING seige of Leningrad. Center: Your at the land bridge big deal again, your waiting on the railheads, PLUS the south is 100% not safe, there is noway the GHC can get close to the normal historical Nov 1941 lines. Which means you will be facing atleast 20+ more units. The normal Marsh incirclement is 100% not doable by turn 5-7 now. So in other words the center is now BORING, you got to wait on railheads or waste 100"s of tanks tring to pound out a few hexs a turn for very little space. The historical lines of Nov 1941 are clearly not doable vs a good SHC player. South: Again your stuck doing gimp incirclements and waiting on railheads where u are now. The Nov 1941 lines are just not even close to doable vs a good SHC player. In other words Boring after turn 3-5. You play tested to turn 3? I alrdy play tested vs myself to turn 7 now 2 times. I have a job 3 kids, their are no magic bullets for the SHC, its a basic defence, checher board and counter attack when possible. The game needed some minor tweaks bro, but this is really way way over reaching. Before the patch vs a good SHC player the South historical Nov 1941 lines were not doable to start with. Center was about right and the North, Leningrad was a good possiblity. So on balance the game was close to historical with a few what ifs, now its just a bore. There are no options after turn 4 other then very gimp pockets and grinding out a few hexs a turn, which will cause uber high losses, which will lead to a disaster for the average to beginner GHC player. This patch will be a big turn off for many new comers to the game that want to play the GHC side. Clearly this patch was not play tested at all, thats why your doing it after the fact. It was based more on politics of mismatchs and not what was needed to balance the game. Pelton If you want to win the game in 1941 as the Germans, I suggest you put the game on Easy and play the ai. It is a fantasy if you think you should be able to do this in 1941 against a human player. The campaign game is just that...a CAMPAIGN! If you find it so boring...go play something else.

Klydon -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 5:10:36 PM)
That is part of the issue (Germans throwing in the towel early). Once most Germans figure out they can't "win" through conquering Russia, they have no interest to see if they can "win" in game terms, which is BS. Start a game, finish it. For those that mash the heck out of the build up button, you better be prepared to play the game all the way through or just don't do it. You are doing your opponent a disservice. As far as Pelton's comments go. While I can see his point, I also think it hits what he does with the Germans particularly hard. All I can do is make the observation that he has stated in all the games he has started, he has won every single one of them and only one has gone through the winter and I would say he is on the verge of winning that. Pelton, you are obviously a talented player and I think you have enough talent to work around the new rules and still be successful. If you have won every game you have played outright as the Germans, then shouldn't you question that there is some issue with that? Do you think you should be able to win every single time out? We are talking outright wins here. What do people think should be the chances of an outright win by the Germans (hint, it should be far less than 50%). Having said all this, I would like to see the range on the order of around 25 mp or so. I think 20 is a pretty short leash, but I am fairly flexible on this part of it.

grognard76 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 5:19:32 PM)
Putting in my two cents worth, I found that while playing as German that the HQ build-up was too powerful and agree with the changes (ie less than 20 MP away, with greater penalties). The reason it is too powerful is that it allows the German motorized/armoured units to do unrealistic deep probes - suicide missions let's say- where they can have units run up next to a city with industries far behind the front lines and destroy them all (A german motorized unit with morale > 85 can move about 20 hexes deep into Russian territory - especially in the South.) or create very large pockets that the Russians can't break. However my biggest concern about play balance as a German player is the lack of German resiliency after 42/43 when the Germans have a hard time rebuilding an infantry force after it get chewed up the Russian steam-roller. i think the problem is mostly the lack of manpower to build inf squads etc. Hats off to the developers for a fantastic strategy game

Ketza -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 5:25:29 PM)
When I play I am not looking for the outright win. To me playing as Axis I would have to play an outright novice to accomplish that feat. I am however looking for a game where I can be competitive in the long haul and not have my army collapse in 1943. In order to do that I must be able to do 2 things. Wear down the Soviet industrial base and at a minimum match Soviet historical casualties. The way the game is structured currently against competent Soviet play neither one of those objectives can be met. Perhaps I am just a horrible Axis player and should go play Soviets but that is my feeling about the game currently.

Sabre21 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 5:40:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ketza When I play I am not looking for the outright win. To me playing as Axis I would have to play an outright novice to accomplish that feat. I am however looking for a game where I can be competitive in the long haul and not have my army collapse in 1943. In order to do that I must be able to do 2 things. Wear down the Soviet industrial base and at a minimum match Soviet historical casualties. The way the game is structured currently against competent Soviet play neither one of those objectives can be met. Perhaps I am just a horrible Axis player and should go play Soviets but that is my feeling about the game currently. You can easily exceed historical objectives. I have always taken Leningrad and Moscow which go beyond what the Axis accomplished. I've always exceeded Soviet casualties while taking fewer German historical casualties. That's without using a single build-up. So yes, it can be done against competent Soviet players in the 41 Campaign. Winning the campaign game is going to determine how well the German player holds onto his early gains. I wouldn't expect a decisive win against an equally skilled opponent, nor would I expect to hold onto a Moscow to Rostov line into 45. Heck..if all you do is start the game and then quit without moving a single unit, the German wins a minor victory. Even if all the Germans do is get a draw, that is much better than they did historically. For the Soviets to get a decisive victory is no less difficult than a German one, as it should be.

Farfarer61 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 6:16:11 PM)
All good info. As usual some sort of compromise with 1 Build Up per turn? per Army broup ? 25 hexes ? will likely be the result of this enthusiastic beta testing. I am heartened by the news that one day I too might be able to get good enough as an Axis player and then despise those who still use (shudder) HQ Build Up. Campaigns are good. 35 years of WITE then FITE permanently in play the Rec Room, behind kid, dog and cat barriers of course.

WarHunter -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 6:44:37 PM)
quote: sabre21, If you want to win the game in 1941 as the Germans, I suggest you put the game on Easy and play the ai. It is a fantasy if you think you should be able to do this in 1941 against a human player. The campaign game is just that...a CAMPAIGN! If you find it so boring...go play something else. For being a moderator and tester, your post is the most personal and non-constructive of anyone. Why the hate? Maybe take more time to refute the topic with a reasoned argument. quote: I have always taken Leningrad and Moscow which go beyond what the Axis accomplished. I've always exceeded Soviet casualties while taking fewer German historical casualties. That's without using a single build-up. So yes, it can be done against competent Soviet players in the 41 Campaign. How about rolling out an AAR so that we can take notes from a superior axis playing style. quote: Heck..if all you do is start the game and then quit without moving a single unit, the German wins a minor victory. False statment. I tried to do this with the AI and it does'nt work. Yes i know what you mean, but really, we are all adults here. How about showing us the game where you the axis are defending to victory. As a lurker, I expect constructive posts to threads, especially from a alpha tester.

Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 7:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Klydon As far as Pelton's comments go. While I can see his point, I also think it hits what he does with the Germans particularly hard. All I can do is make the observation that he has stated in all the games he has started, he has won every single one of them and only one has gone through the winter and I would say he is on the verge of winning that. Yes, it's amazing what you can do when you can ignore logistics. Pelton is a good player, but what he's doing with his HQs is part of the reason for this rule change. He found a way to completely liberate the panzers from their logistical sources via HQ buildups. This is simply not intended. The idea that by leapfrogging HQs and spamming buildups you can more or less permanently keep your spearhead moving at maximum MP each and every turn regardless of distance to railhead is plainly an abuse of game mechanics. Some of his spearheads have been able to get as far as 45 hexes away from a source of supply. I really don't see how anybody can defend this sort of thing, it's way over the top. So we tweaked the rule a bit.

Ketza -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 7:23:12 PM)
Actually NM.

Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 7:28:54 PM)
I don't recall seeing any playtester offering medical advice. Andy is a beast. He is not bragging, merely stating what he can do. He is our best playtester for either side. I'm seeing him doing some crazy stuff right now in a private playtest, as a matter of fact, as the Germans. There's a lot stuff going on which isn't made public for fairly self evident reasons.

Ketza -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 8:29:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx I don't recall seeing any playtester offering medical advice. Andy is a beast. He is not bragging, merely stating what he can do. He is our best playtester for either side. I'm seeing him doing some crazy stuff right now in a private playtest, as a matter of fact, as the Germans. There's a lot stuff going on which isn't made public for fairly self evident reasons. It was my mistake it was not a playtester that made that comment thats why I removed it. The perception is out there that the Axis have long term issues. I am just stating that indeed if the Axis side has no fangs no one will want to play Axis and that cannot be good for the game long term. Discussion on the boards will hopefully lead to a better more enjoyable experience for both sides.

76mm -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 9:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heliodorus04 While your strategic tradeoff analysis is sound, I think you're overlooking one part of the gamesmanship you engage in: If you succeed, you win the game early (say, 1942 or 1941 is early). If you fail, you can just concede defeat in 1941 (oh, I'm out of trucks, supply range, and replacements - I'm doomed, nice game, I surrender). In both of these cases, you've wasted the Soviet player's time because he never had much of a chance to actually play. If you won, he was bludgeoned by the gamesmanship enabled by HQ buildup, encircled in pocket after pocket without any ability to counter-attack (at least outside blizzard). If you failed, well, you just played about a year's worth of the game in which the Soviet was doing little else but maneuvering his 'ants' (to use Oleg's quite accurate term), the 1-1 divisions of 1941, to try to cost you more in trucks. I've tried to express this point before, but you've done so more eloquently. quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton North: The normal right hook in the north is 100% not possible. LOL, as if that is a bad thing. IMO the right hook is one of the most gamey, unrealistic parts of the game, and it makes Lgrad far too vulnerable. quote: ORIGINAL: Farfarer Of course I use Build Up ruthlessly, but it is sure as heck not IGNORING logistics - it is a massive gamble, once which could lose me the war against my opponent. Burning through 100,000 trucks on the quasi-roads of Russia and expending all my Admin points (zero leadership changes, swapping Sus or other 'luxuries') to do "HQ Leapfrog and re-assignment" is NOT a freebie. I play Sovs and have never used HQB, but on a separate thread most German players said that the cost in trucks was no big deal.

pompack -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 9:29:26 PM)
Well said 76mm [&o]

sillyflower -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 11:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pompack Well said 76mm [&o] +1 Germans can still do build up for panzer units that are 250 miles from the railhead (20 hexes to HQ, 5 more to unit) putting unit in full supply. This is hardly ahistorical emasculation of the Wehrmacht. Silly old Guderian needn't have wasted all that time at Smolensk if he had known all he had to do was say 'let's do HQ build up' to make his truck drivers work harder or drive faster enabling him to take Moscow before either Hitler or Stalin could stop him. Read any history book - to do what build up achieves in this game takes weeks irl. Build up is a gameplay concept, nothing more. Pavel has posted it needs to be replaced which I look forward to. In the meantime it's still a good tactic for those of us not as skilled as Sabre seems to be. Equally for a german player to run his long-term prospects into the ground with excessive use knowing/thinking it doesn't matter, because he will quit if Russians don't, would be truly pathetic IMHO for GC game. In a perverse sort of way I'm quite enjoying having my russians kicked all over the place by massed (and very skillful) use of buildup because I expect my opponent to live with the consequences. We agreed no quiting and victory to be determined against historical outcome so there is still something to play for in mid/late game - if i survive that long!

Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 11:46:45 PM)
Sabre21 quote: If you want to win the game in 1941 as the Germans, I suggest you put the game on Easy and play the ai. It is a fantasy if you think you should be able to do this in 1941 against a human player. The campaign game is just that...a CAMPAIGN! If you find it so boring...go play something else. Lol Sabre21 can you stop with the childish fairytales? Where in my post did I say anything about winning in 1941? Where son where? Stop the little childish game of changing the subject, your a Moderator? I clearly stated that its not possible to get to the 1941 historical lines. You have given no reason to refute my points other then a childish rant, lol I thk poeple expect a little more. Sorry I hurt your feeling, but I am tring to point out why the patch is simply a GHC nerf.

sillyflower -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/22/2011 11:58:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton its the what ifs that make it worth playing. Pelton This change is hardly going to make playing grmans impossible or even much harder. For those like me who used build up occaisionally for strategic purposes only (x5 in my current game IIRC) it's not going to make much difference if any. And yes I did take Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov in 1st summer. If this is a game wrecker for Germans, then how about impact on blizzard changes on Russians? For me what makes it worth playing is having a game that either side can win by which I mean doing better or worse than historical result. In other words, whether russians get auto victory before historical fall of berlin. Clearly if G plays much better he should have a chance of autovictory in '42. In short I want a long game with an even chance of winning against an equal opponent. A game that ends in '41 or '42 because german mortgaged his future in the first summer is a bit pointless IMHO and the prospect would deter me from playing as russians. Glad to see you are not one of the giving up types though. See you on the battlefield one day

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/23/2011 12:03:19 AM)
So my favorite turn 3 tactic of driving as far forward and then gassing up is done. Guess what? It is no big deal. I never even heard of HQ buildup before December, and I lose it after six months...I have 45 years of living without it. I will simply learn more about the game and play better. There are always ways to figure stuff out. My six months is pathetic to try and say anything definitive about the game. Now, let it be known, I will still bitch about turn 4 mud.

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