RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (Full Version)

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USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/11/2011 5:54:10 PM)

The latest file for the Third Reich 1942-1945 is now available on wargamecollege.net

Events 577 -653 have not been tested. These include addition of variable supply points, some additional severe weather events (air/ground shock/zoc costs), and incremental loss of Axis Theater Recon as certain locations are taken. These should be okay - but... we've heard that before.

If someone can give them a quick look over that would be greatly appreciated - a separate fresh set of eyes is better than I can throw at it.

A number of changes mostly small in effect - most are covered on the blog.

File is 1.4 Mb - includes 30 pg scenario guide, and some basic player supplements including a German and Russian OOB (others are generally defined in scenario notes), and an Allied/Axis Turn Checklist.

Took vacation to wrap this up, work situation is a bit overwhelming.

Quick note for Telumar - still working on the AAR - about 50% complete.



governato -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/13/2011 1:00:14 AM)


Will test the eastern Front part of your scenario for a few turns and report. Just read Glantz's book on the Karkhov offensive. A bit dry, but has useful figures to check the set up for the scenario start. Then is my turn to upgrade my own Europe1944! Glad that there are new TOAW scenarios to play with. Yours has a lot of interesting design features and it really stands out.



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/13/2011 7:57:36 AM)

Thank you, Governato!

The only questions as far as events go is whether adjusting the ZOC Cost is relative or absolute.
It starts at 125% - a few of the weather events push it to 250% and then (hopefully) pull it back to 125%. Just hoping that it doesn't start at 125, jump to 375 and then 500... heh... that would be bad.

Still waiting on word as to if/when we will be looking at a new patch before jumping into the PO versions. Going to see how this week goes work-wise and may then post for some pbem.



governato -> Testing the Kharkov offensive. (10/13/2011 8:59:18 PM)

I played the first four turns trying to replicate The Red Army Offensive in May 42 on the Belgorod-Kharkov front.
Went pretty much as historical! Moderate Russian gains on the first two turns followed by strong counterattacks by German Panzers and infantry at the neck of the salient. I tried to withdraw the russian forces starting on turn 3 (as historical) but it was already too late. 12 Infantry divisions pocketed and many tank units lost. Only 40 tanks lost by the Germans. Usage of the German HQs to ford rivers and Luftwaffe support was crucial.

My only comment/question looking at the Eastern front is if the Infantry units should start more depleted in certain areas...in early 42 the Wehrmacht reinforced AGS and the Red Army focused on the defence of Moscow. But just thinking out loud.

Good job!






[image]local://upfiles/38323/65B6F953B4BF4966B4B2B1B3E8AD018E.gif[/image]



USXpat -> RE: Testing the Kharkov offensive. (10/22/2011 4:03:20 PM)

Thanks for the screenshot Governato! Just responded via e-mail, too.

Axis Supply and Readiness is at 35% for AGN; about 40-50% for AGC; and 50-80% for AGS. AGN and AGC infantry start closer to 1943 TO&E levels with AGS sitting closer to the 1941 TO&E. Soviet units start close to 65% TO&E with 70% readiness and 35% supply for the most part - Kharkov area being an exception. More fine tuning could be done, mostly contending with the time to do it.

I definitely appreciate the feedback - just revised Donets to be a lesser river per your notes. Am still considering expanding the "strategic" components of the scenario, and in absence of news for a new patch, going ahead with work on the PO. Fighting time constraints all the way around.

See how the next couple of weeks goes, haven't updated file with the Donets change yet, site got hit hacked again, so having to fix that up a bit, too.




1_Lzard -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/23/2011 4:30:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat
Still waiting on word as to if/when we will be looking at a new patch before jumping into the PO versions.


It's going to be awhile............sigh!



Shazman -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/23/2011 5:34:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard


quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat
Still waiting on word as to if/when we will be looking at a new patch before jumping into the PO versions.


It's going to be awhile............sigh!


Yikes. They've been saying Christ will be coming back 'soon'. For two thousand years. I hope 'awhile' isn't quite that long.



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/23/2011 10:03:54 AM)

Thanks Lizard! So, realistically this scenario will up with three file versions - PBEM, Axis PO and Allied PO. I'll likely start on the Axis PO which will give more time for additional observations to filter in on the PBEM (master) version.

This forces a decision on whether to expand strategic components and "historical variants". I'm weak on complex event routines, but the disband cadres are straight forward and easy to implement. Playing to that, I've come up with a means of making extremely complex "TO possibilities" fairly easy and economical based upon use of "divided units" and a double disband routine to create up to 3 tiers of event effects...

Say we want to give players a wide range of strategic options - which can be Cumulative in effect, we can start with creating a series of disband cadres:

1/A, 2/A, 3/A where each gives say +1 Supply
1/B, 2/B, 3/B each giving +2 Theater Recon
1/C, 2/C, 3/C each giving +1% Replacements
etc.

Disbanding each will give the effect plus bring on another disband (2nd tier) cadre - each of which is a "divided unit". So, in the above if limiting the player to 3 options, they could take 1 each of A, B and C, any other combination to include all 3 of the A's.

Each of these could be disbanded to yield a second layer of events... or in the case of choosing all of the A's - combine all three into one "Complete A" - that could be disbanded for "a Mega Effect" of sorts.

I'm considering up to 9 "Tier 1 TO sets" covering a total of 27 Tier 1 effects - with the player being able to select 9 Tier 1 effects. This also sets the stage for up to 9 Tier 2 TO sets with up to 27 Tier 2 effects- which could lead to 9 Tier 3 Mega effects. Based upon the player's T1 selection they would only have access to nine Tier 2 effects and at most three Tier 3's.

(more to follow)




USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/23/2011 10:22:13 AM)

What I originally really wanted to do, but shied away from because of the potential to seriously mess up the event system is much more viable with the above. In the case of the Axis, it is always a question of what could have been done differently?

We have for example the historical late war situation where the Luftwaffe had plenty of aircraft, but not enough fuel or trained pilots. But then, you look at the decision of creating 21 Luftwaffe Field Divisions and can't help but say - some of those could have been trained pilots. One could also look at the V-1/2 programs and guess that the materials that went into them could have covered the fuel gap - perhaps even adding another fuel facility.

Or, we could look at the heavy tank programs - from both directions, with research going into the Maus and conversely, Guderian arguing for streamlining production on medium tanks.

Leastwise, I look at the historical Germany and see that it had the capacity to do some of everything. It's not that Germany did not have the capacity to keep the Luftwaffe on better par against Allied Air Forces - it is that they made decisions suppressing their capacity to do so.

I worked out quite a bit of this early on, but gave up trying to implement until coming up with this idea. I'd actually like to implement it - but then felt I should do the same for the Allied player to have the same sort of dynamics. Except when I get to looking at what kind of options the Allies might consider - I come up with a mostly blank page.

Any ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions?



Shazman -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/23/2011 2:50:24 PM)

Much was dependant upon the personalities of the people involved. I imagine you would have to first kill off Hitler to make some of that realistic. He was a gadget guy and I have to wonder how much he knew about logistics.



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (10/24/2011 3:10:54 PM)

There is that, but the nature of wargaming is to look at different possibilities. Not everyone follows Hitler or Stalin's directives at the operational, and sometimes even tactical, level.




Nowi Ribak -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (11/2/2011 7:36:46 PM)

I dont manage to find the manual for this scenario, the link at wargamercollege seems to be down.

Help please? [;)]



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (11/2/2011 9:44:37 PM)

Hello - sorry, my site(s) got hit by a hacker and my host took my site down until it could get fixed. It is back up now - the latest complete file set can be downloaded from:

http://www.wargamecollege.net/2011/10/go-1942-1945-v1-1-complete/




Nowi Ribak -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (11/2/2011 10:37:09 PM)

Thanks a lot!

Love this scenario!



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 5:04:54 PM)

Time marches on faster than I can so - a quick update is in order.

An update of the PBEM version is about two weeks away - along with an Axis PO version.  I decided to take a few chill pills after just now realizing that "Copy Objective Tracks" is freaking "global" - all formations.  Which is good, I suppose for when you want to do that to all formations...  I thought it was a rather nice way of doing it one formation at a time... whatever, will go through again and probably simplify things a bit.

Quite a few changes have been made, subject to further testing. 

Quick ones likely to stand:

*  Allies will move first.
*  Fixed some disband events that got broken from addition of new units in last update.
*  English TO&E substantially reduced "at start" - especially heavy equipment (some 1944 equipment made its way into the "at start").
*  Africa Korps strengthened slightly, added Ramcke Bde to OOB, Arnim supply unit available at start vs. T29 (when Arnim arrived).
*  Soviet disband cadres added for retaking major cities.
*  Revised system for Allies to decrease Axis Theater Recon -- added SIGINT units (unit abstracts) in fixed locations - destruction of each yields 70% chance of decreasing Axis TR by 2. 
*  Decreased one river from super to normal; added some airports; removed seaports on Azov.
*  Restructured Italian and German OOB so each formation has a more distinct area of operations.
*  Forced a number of English and Axis formations into Garrison status - gradually becoming available for redeployment.

Hoping to make these the "final version" - but there are a number of items I would still like to add. 

Presently engaged in the testing of the PO.  The primary issue at this stage is whether to "let loose the Axis dogs of war" right out of the gates (T1-2) or to stage it on historical terms.  The start date was selected to include the Second Battle of Kharkov - the renewed N. Africa offensive didn't start until the end of May, Blue didn't start really until the end of June...  But I wonder how many Axis players would wait for the historical start dates for these offensives, as we can see in scenarios like World Aflame - things don't always proceed according to the historical time frame. 

Then there's the matter of it "just being the PO..."

I welcome input on how to handle this issue. 



secadegas -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 5:34:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat

Then there's the matter of it "just being the PO..."

I welcome input on how to handle this issue. 



Setting a decent PO on complex scenarios is the "million dollar question"... [sm=innocent0001.gif]



Silvanski -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 6:02:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekadegas

quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat

Then there's the matter of it "just being the PO..."

I welcome input on how to handle this issue. 



Setting a decent PO on complex scenarios is the "million dollar question"... [sm=innocent0001.gif]


especially if it's a scenario with several TO's ...



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 7:52:21 PM)

Understood - numerous issues with the PO generally. 

Main question is whether to structure the PO to immediately go on the offensive or wait 4 or 8 turns to coincide with the historical offensive start dates (Tobruk/Case Blue)? 





sPzAbt653 -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 9:30:33 PM)

Set it historically then playtest to see how it goes.

I imagine the Allied player will expect the PO to 'Blue', so having 6-8 turns at start to prepare may take the advantage away from the Axis PO. Maybe.



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/27/2011 11:20:29 PM)

Thanks! I'll give the historical opening a true shot then.



demyansk -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/28/2011 1:27:11 AM)

I downloaded the scenario and after reading the direction can I play against the computer in this game?



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/28/2011 10:44:31 AM)

Current downloadable version is only for PBEM and will be updated very shortly.  PO is not set up.  I would not recommend starting a new game with the existing files at this time.  New files for the PBEM version are no more than 2 weeks away.  Axis PO version -- may set up beta version for download in two weeks. 





demyansk -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (12/28/2011 2:22:14 PM)

thanks for the quick reply



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/2/2012 7:00:24 PM)

I'm hoping to get a little bit of help here on an Event Loop.  The idea is that if Force 2 attacks a specific hex that it will reduce Force 1's Replacement Rates (or Supply) by "x amount" for "y turns".  After y turns - replacement/supply returns to normal.  During y turns - if the hex is attacked again - there will be no effect; but afterwards - it can be repeated. 

This is in the context of a direct air attack on a hex for which there has to be a unit in the hex - which will need to be seen by Theater Recon.

I know that to be "realistic" the replacement rate would need to "increment" back to normal, but looking to keep this simple with the fewest # of events possible - and just use "averages".  Also - this doesn't allow any means of tracking the "strength" of the attack on the hex, but can accommodate that with an honor rule. 

Any help is greatly appreciated!



Telumar -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/2/2012 10:09:13 PM)

As the trigger 'Force 1/2 attacks' triggers only once and not repeatedly it is very simple. You just have to enable the trigger and its effects after y turns:

#1 2 attacks x/y
#2 EvAct 1, supply1-
#3 EvAct 1, supply1+, delay=y

#4 EvAct 1, Enable 1, delay=y
#5 EvAct 1, Enable 2, delay=y
#6 EvAct 1, Enable 3, delay=y






LLv34_Snefens -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/2/2012 10:30:33 PM)

Does that work now?
In the EvEd document it says that:

"Force Attacks events cannot be recycled with Enable Event. There is something in TOAW that flags an attacked hex and prevents a recycled event from activating. (Curt)"

I haven't tested if that still holds true in 3.4.



Telumar -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/2/2012 10:39:28 PM)

I have just tested it in 3.4 before i posted my initial post. Works now. A test scenario is attached.

I will have to correct the EvilEd Article i posted on my blog, btw. I didn't even know that the EvilEd states that ForceAttack is buggy.. [:D]



USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/3/2012 12:16:45 AM)

Most Excellent - thank you very much Telumar. I see what you did that got it to work right with the event activate > event enable with 3T delay. I used only 1 and... didn't quite work.

This however, works like a charm - repeatedly, too. Very happy with this! I have a lot of tests to run now. This might be the boost on the strategic level that I was looking for - as it plays off several elements of the game engine - vs abstract handling.

It adds more importance to Theater Recon for starters. The attack on the unit/hex can also be tied to a percentage chance for inflicting damage. There's the Anti-Aircraft plus local air superiority issues. Plus, there's the potential to evap the unit in the hex for greater effect.

So... will be looking at testing the impact of AA - interceptors - bomber escorts - and come up with a means of "simulating" an industrial complex. Probably going a bit overboard, but further experimentation won't hurt... and if in the end it doesn't come close to "feeling right", it can be backed out. Of course, that's a bit subjective - but there are plenty of statistics to compare against.

Thanks again, Telumar!



requiem72 -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/3/2012 5:07:03 PM)

i would like to add my 2cents to the pbem version.

being on t15 as axis player i miss some kind of a reward in taking murmansk.
at least nothing about it shows up in the scenario briefing.
some kind of replacement reduction would make it a target.
without it there is no real sense in keeping units there.

also, there should be any kind of guarding unit in and espacially around Stalingrad to prevent it taken by parachute on t1 or t2.[X(]





USXpat -> RE: East & West Front 1942-1945 scenario (1/3/2012 5:42:30 PM)

Thanks for giving it a try Requiem and thank you for the feedback!

There are no events set for Murmansk presently. I routed all of the Lend Lease into Archangelsk. I'll revise that, at least, so that summer months go to Archangelsk and winter months go to Murmansk. I was playing pretty stingy with events until confirming that the PO version will require a separate file. Was hoping to have pbem/po versions use the same file, but not possible.

In the next version, Allies will be going first - coupled with a 1 turn cease fire at start to allow for any redeployments for both sides. There are quite a few changes in the next version. Will post any developments here.




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