RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (Full Version)

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larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/8/2011 7:06:02 AM)

Here's the moves I made ( pulled back and tried to reform a sortof front line with a gigantic breech.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/2D1C03A7873D43548B1B02E12BB2A089.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/8/2011 7:11:52 AM)

Here's the OOB, losses, destroyed units, and production:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/82C839AE16CC4E8CB4E1D8AA85447548.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T108 (11/8/2011 6:42:45 PM)

T108: This is the front lines in the south before any recon or movement:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/4B4387E0E5A247E3901D93CC8DB34F40.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T108 (11/8/2011 7:03:27 PM)

Here's my moves in that area:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/47E746638465404C997F0A2A0E831144.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T108 (11/8/2011 7:07:02 PM)

Here's the OOB, losses, and production:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/89F5DADDC6664CB683C7292DC747B4E0.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/9/2011 2:41:53 PM)

T109: Here's the front lines before any recon or movement

[image]local://upfiles/16287/9B12B7F22C2D444784FF7D0ED56F49B7.gif[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/9/2011 5:11:44 PM)

This is a weird game. You are 5 hexes from Riga, and at the gates of the Pripet on one hand.....and on the other, Saratov is threatened. The result is a massively long front line.

There has to be an opportunity you are missing. You have a huge army, over 2 mil Manpower in the pool, and over 3 mil Armaments.

I would attack in several places along the line. You can afford losses, but he can't, and you may start freaking him out. Attacking around SUMY would be a good choice; it looks like his whole line is Regiments and Axis Allies, and I bet there aren't alot of reserves



Mike13z50 -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/9/2011 5:35:18 PM)

Have agree with Q-Ball here, you have to attack where he isn't.

Three steps to dealing with breakthrough.
1. Shore up the flanks <You've done that>
2. Stem the tide <Get in front of his break through>
3. Attack the base.

I noticed you have a stack loaded on trains, looking back they've been there at least since turn 106. Get them infront of the panzers. You ought be using max rail capacity to get reserves in front. Right now they are just running wild.

[image]local://upfiles/23860/C98662B5522A47DFA70F6742C272064B.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 8:33:06 AM)

Larry still has the notable problem of not having a massive tank total yet.



horza66 -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 11:17:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Larry still has the notable problem of not having a massive tank total yet.


Larry, would you mind checking your tank production? This does seem odd as I don't remember you losing significant t-34 production earlier in the AAR.

I agree on the counter-attack suggestion. Things look disastrously bad right now, so the only thing to do is attack. I suspect much of the German lines are paper thin in fact, and there remains the possibility of a real reversal if you can dig them out of their forts. It will take some luck, but I don't think you have anything to lose in the attempt.

On the Lessons Learned I think you simply have too few units. The Rifle Corps are so very tempting, and I've made the mistake myself of making too many of them (thankfully only against the AI, who gives you the opportunity to recover from mistakes). You want to retain a decent carpet of brigades and divisions, and make corps only for your offensive armies and to hold strongpoints.

Or am I mistaken? What proportion of your line is actually held by Corps in fact? Is it more the case that you have been unable to replace the units lost in earlier pockets?

(Does anyone have an idea of the ratio of APs they spend on new units vs Corps builds? I tend to aim for a target TO&E for each regular army of one corps, 3-6 divisions, 2-3 brigades. The Guards and Shock Armies would be mostly Corps, but I'd have a few divisions and brigades for suicidal exploitation missions even here.)



Q-Ball -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 1:03:42 PM)

It's hard to get massive tanks in play as Soviets due to VEHICLE limitations. I am sure Larry has plenty of tanks in the pool. The problem is you can't go nuts with Tank REgt creation, because you don't have the vehicles

After mid-43 when Lend Lease kicks in, the Red Army should be able to ramp-up tank numbers



juret -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 7:19:56 PM)

5000 tanks is to few. should be 10-12k without considering vehicles production and pool.



randallw -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 10:31:05 PM)

He's lost 24k tanks so far.  The dead tank units are a rough equivalent of 40 tank divisions.



Q-Ball -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T109 (11/10/2011 10:49:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

He's lost 24k tanks so far.  The dead tank units are a rough equivalent of 40 tank divisions.


Just a flesh wound. Against Tarhunnas, I had lost nearly 40,000 tanks by this stage. And still had 1000s in the pool.

The only way the Soviets can run out of tanks is if they don't move factories, and maybe not even then



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.39beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T110 (11/11/2011 1:24:56 AM)

T100: Here's the front lines before any recon or Soviet movement:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/BD7F347355CA4E029D6DB5600905B37A.gif[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.39beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T110 (11/11/2011 1:42:35 AM)

Here's my moves. I started an effort to try to contain the leakage. Plus I pulled back some in the south.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/57DEE00CB88543A2BD81025F364475D8.gif[/image]



krupp_88mm -> RE: 1.05.39beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T110 (11/11/2011 10:33:11 AM)

larry at this point.. i think the best thing you can do is just pull back in the east and evac what you can stretch out his supply and grind down his armor then start making a stand.. meanwhile if you dont put pressure on the axis somewhere else he is going to gobble you up, star cannibalizing men anywhere you can get make beg borrow steal as many rifle corps cav corps and spare inf divisions form your front line that you can make several small very concentrated spearheads and attack in the north center of your line, and or prepare for winter offensive. you really are fairly strong in every category except afvs, his line is now really rally long like yours in that other game.. i doubt he has barely any reserves at all, he will have to pull back panzers or give up ground towards poland if you do the attack right and voluntarily give up his east gains.



JKLilly -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 8:54:49 AM)

Want to thank Larry for the game. He gave me a run, especially in 1941.



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 4:01:27 PM)

Hey you guys.........I resigned.  This game is way too far gone for me to compete successfully.  Klilly is the better player.  We're gonna start another game soon so stay tuned.



Strv103C -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 4:30:06 PM)

A 100 turns game, awesome job of you both![&o]



Q-Ball -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 4:35:21 PM)

Huh? [&:]

Larry, I think you were WINNING, not losing. Sure, he's running out into the empty Steppes of Russia, but you have several items in your favor:

1. MANPOWER: You are in great shape; you hold all the Manpower of the Central Ukraine, and have over 2 mil men in the pool. Hordes!
2. ARMAMENTS: No shortage here either; 3 mil in the pool! The only factory you lost, apparently, was Minsk.
3. LONG LINES: Longest German frontage ever. I am certain he is vulnerable.

You really don't need to stop him from running East. OK, make sure he doesn't take Baku or Chalkov or reach the Urals, but that's it; otherwise, he is doing you a favor crossing the Volga. Start attacking toward Kharkov, which you are only a few hexes away from, and I bet he'll regret those moves.

If Killy wants to, I am offering to continue the SOVIET side of this game. I am very serious. I think you have the Germans right where you want them.

If anyone should be resigning, it's Killy, because he's opening himself up to seriouis trouble

Anyone else think the same?

PS: Good aar regardless



M60A3TTS -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 4:45:19 PM)

I agree that you have a point Q-Ball. All is not lost here. In any case I've PM'd Larry with a suggestion on another game if he doesn't choose to continue this one.



horza66 -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 5:52:22 PM)

Congratulations to KLilly on his victory, and to Larry for documenting the fight and sticking it out despite the odds for so long.

I'd be interested in a continuation by Q-Ball though I'm doubtful about whether this can be turned around. The Russians might well have vast stores of men and materiel but they'll not be quick to put into the field - and I suspect klilly can pocket and kill units as fast as they can be formed.



Q-Ball -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 5:55:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: horza66

Congratulations to KLilly on his victory, and to Larry for documenting the fight and sticking it out despite the odds for so long.

I'd be interested in a continuation by Q-Ball though I'm doubtful about whether this can be turned around. The Russians might well have vast stores of men and materiel but they'll not be quick to put into the field - and I suspect klilly can pocket and kill units as fast as they can be formed.


I beg to differ; Killy can't pocket anything, strung-out like that. If anything, he can get pocketed.

I would like to play it out though to test that, but I honestly think Larry has the upper hand here

It will take awhile to get all that stuff in play, but a there is plenty of fuel in the pool to keep an offensive going



larryfulkerson -> RE: 1.05.37beta KLilly vs Fulkerson T107 (11/12/2011 6:44:57 PM)

Um.........I've had a request from M60A3TTS to play a multiplayer game but I had already been asked and answered by KLilly himself.  Anybody out there interested in a 3-way multiplayer game?  Or maybe we can put two 2-way multiplayer games together.  I'm game for either.  

EDIT: Oh.....and the game KLilly and I were playing was on the server so I don't know how to get a copy of it to anybody. Maybe the server master can help out here. Just a thought. I'd like to think I was winning too but it would have taken the rest of the game to bring KLilly under control I'm thinking.



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