RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (Full Version)

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BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 9:28:34 AM)

Turn 42 – 2 April 1942

The bell rings for the Red Army as the mud season arrives and Axis activity all but ceases along the whole front. Time to start reorganizing the Red Army, as well as working on the defense for the more than probable Axis Summer offensive.

I take the following two measures:

1. I pull back everywhere, so the frontline is held by just one unit. This is to minimize attrition – which has been notably raking up – and maximize chances of refitting units (and increase their experience level). Perhaps Q-Ball will be probing and snatching one hex or two but I can live with that.

2. Although the Red Army isn't really having LOTS of surplus vehicles I build as many Tank Corps and Motorized Brigades (8 and 5, respectively). I want to build at least four more tank corps and 7 motorized brigades. These units – along with Cavalry Corps and Tank Brigades – will be fundamental for my defense during summer.

3. I try to mask the fact that I'm going to basically withdraw from the Crimean Peninsula with the general move to the back. I've been certainly overcommitted to the front line – something I've criticized in the past – so that the priority is NOT to maximize fort levels at the front line. I can dream all I want with stopping the Germans right at the start line, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

4. I fortify – or rather with this horrible weather – the major river lines I expect Q-Ball will want to cross.

If anything, this should help me to get a hold on the game. Q-Ball is in the driving seat now, and he will be until September 1942 at the very least. I'm supposed to play the role of one of the unfortunate victims of Kurt Russell in Death Proof... but Q-Ball can find himself unpleasantly surprised if what I'm thinking about can be really done :)




Baelfiin -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 12:50:13 PM)

BG:

How do you intend to use tank corps? I have thought about trying to use them in reserve mode but other than that they just seem to be very brittle to me. As the german I find that they are easy targets.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 12:58:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

BG:

How do you intend to use tank corps? I have thought about trying to use them in reserve mode but other than that they just seem to be very brittle to me. As the german I find that they are easy targets.


That's the idea. They're the units with the most MP's and this makes them very good for reserves (when put under good Initiative leaders, to compensate to the -1 modifier due to size). Regarding their SU package, mine is:

* 1 Motorcycle Regiment
* 1 AT Rgt (the ones with the 85mm guns)
* 1 MG-Arty Bn

This adds infantry and artillery to the early tank corps, so they should be a little less brittle.

I also know that they're premium targets for a German, because of the high number of vehicles in them. Having them well to the rear - as deep operational reserves - makes even more sense, as the German might do something not too sound if he gets greedy.

In the attack - or more likely, the counterattack - I'd like to try to operate them in stacks of 2 Tk Corps + 1 Motor Bde, or 1 Tk Corps + 1 Cav Corps + 1 Motor Bde. Let's see if I can adhere to this "doctrine" while using them.




Flaviusx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 1:04:09 PM)

No sapper regiment?

I put sappers in everything, myself. If it's a corps, it's going to get sappers. The rest is negotiable.





BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 1:18:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

No sapper regiment?

I put sappers in everything, myself. If it's a corps, it's going to get sappers. The rest is negotiable.



Hahaha. Yeah, is a bit shocking right?

First, I'm prioritizing sappers to speed up fort building.

Second, Rifle & Cav Corps always get a Sapper Rgt, as they're usually the ones leading or bolstering the assault on fortified positions. Regarding Tank Corps, I don't consider sound - in general - to assault fortified positions with mechanized formations. In the offensive I always use them in the 2nd Echelon, for exploitation, if that happens. In the strategic defense, I prefer to pack a good AT punch, to unpleasantly surprise those PzDivs doing hasty attacks all over the place :)




Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 1:19:04 PM)

Basically same as Flav. At least 1 sapper goes into any corps. Good on combat and the unit can dig quicker.

I usually disband motorcycle regiments in 41 to help ease the armaments issues. They also use a fair number of vehicles.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 1:24:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I usually disband motorcycle regiments in 41 to help ease the armaments issues. They also use a fair number of vehicles.


While the former is something disbanding Motorcycle Rgts helps in a debatable way - the Armaments situation seems to fix itself alone as time passes and the dust of evacuation settles - the second is a very important concern.

However, what I have realized is that either army - Soviet or German - operates quite well even around the 50% Motor Pool level. I've just assisted to a game where the Soviet has finally crushed the Fascist Hydra in Winter 1944, and he's been operating all the way from 1943 to 1944 with an appaling motor pool. This, if anything else, speaks volumes about how much a non-issue can logistics be in "the greater scheme of things".




gingerbread -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 4:15:25 PM)

Flaviusx should add Vitruvius as middle name. [;)]




Mike13z50 -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 4:31:00 PM)

The late war motorcycle regiment is a very nice combined arms unit. CV of 2, same as tank regiments, and about the same vehicle cost.



[image]local://upfiles/23860/BA1CA1D5CC474CA19C0DA2CE1E1F873F.jpg[/image]




freeboy -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 5:33:42 PM)

love the detailed maps with town names.. is that a game setting. my maps only show city names? or a mod?
thanks for a interesting aar
ok reaad answer its a mod.. thanks again.. helpful as I larn sov side of things




Flaviusx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 5:39:43 PM)

I've had great success using the motorcycle regiments in the past as attachments for tank and mech corps and am very fond of them. More recently I've been disbanding them given the armaments situation, but they're really nice units.

BG the truck shortage does inhibit the Sovs in a number of ways. Mobile units -- excepting the wonderful, lovely cavalry corps -- will never reach anything like their maximum 50 mps even if tanned, rested and ready. The same shortage makes you rather wary of buildups (and not until late 1943 does the Soviet have the APs for this, until then you need every scrap of APs for improving the Red Army.)

What is does not affect is the huge, overwhelming mass of rifle corps and their supporting artillery divisions. These proceed with the majestic deliberation of a pachyderm and are the true backbone of the red army. They blast open the holes. The mech units exploit as best they can, which won't be very far, and indeed you'll find the cavalry units are the only ones with sustainable march rates in the exploitation phase.

What the game doesn't really show is that the Sovs had to pause and stockpile in order to feed this ponderous mass. Sometimes for months. (Although there is the suspicion that some of these late war pauses were done more for political than operational reasons, but I digress.)




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 5:50:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

love the detailed maps with town names.. is that a game setting. my maps only show city names? or a mod?
thanks for a interesting aar
ok reaad answer its a mod.. thanks again.. helpful as I larn sov side of things


Yes it's Redmarkus mod for maps. That was an awesome and painstaking job :)




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 5:59:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I've had great success using the motorcycle regiments in the past as attachments for tank and mech corps and am very fond of them. More recently I've been disbanding them given the armaments situation, but they're really nice units.


This thing with armaments situation still has me flummoxed. If you check the numbers I gather each turn, you'll notice it has slumped forward in the most surprising of manners. Interestingly this happened as soon as evacuated factories started to be repaired and when the game engine decided to start building Support Squads en masse. The latter certainly influences that, since 20,000 men gobbled up by them, means 20,000 men not used to build ATG squads, SMG squads and the like.

Even when restricting Army HQ's TOE's (to 70% all across the board) I haven't been able to curb this. Perhaps it's because the new airbases being built, but since for each disbanded airbase a new one is created, in principle, the net effect should be that much less Support Squads are built.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
BG the truck shortage does inhibit the Sovs in a number of ways. Mobile units -- excepting the wonderful, lovely cavalry corps -- will never reach anything like their maximum 50 mps even if tanned, rested and ready. The same shortage makes you rather wary of buildups (and not until late 1943 does the Soviet have the APs for this, until then you need every scrap of APs for improving the Red Army.)


Indeed. As long as they have 30 or more MP's I'll be happy, since that won't impair too much the possibility of them being committed as reserves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
What is does not affect is the huge, overwhelming mass of rifle corps and their supporting artillery divisions. These proceed with the majestic deliberation of a pachyderm and are the true backbone of the red army. They blast open the holes. The mech units exploit as best they can, which won't be very far, and indeed you'll find the cavalry units are the only ones with sustainable march rates in the exploitation phase.


Yes, I've seen that both playing the Soviets (and defending against that as the Axis). This makes German Corps-level counterattacks against breakthroughs really dangerous, since you might find your exploiting units in very bad positions. Hence my bet on AT assets, also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
What the game doesn't really show is that the Sovs had to pause and stockpile in order to feed this ponderous mass. Sometimes for months. (Although there is the suspicion that some of these late war pauses were done more for political than operational reasons, but I digress.)


Ah the old post-Bagration Warsaw debate... In my opinion, it was a logistic necessity which happened to serve - uncannily - to a political purpose. Bach Von Zelewski did the dirty job for the SMERSH and the NKVD.




Flaviusx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 6:07:42 PM)

The Red Army was pretty exhausted by the time it got to Warsaw, but Stalin in the past (and in the future, particularly in Hungary) was willing to ignore such things and insist pushing it past its limits. I'm fairly sure he was delighted to have the Poles and Germans slaughter each other. He went out of his way to allow this and did not cooperate with the allies so far as air resupply drops go. He was pretty brutal towards the London Poles and wanted them out of his way so he could install his pet government.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/30/2011 6:10:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The Red Army was pretty exhausted by the time it got to Warsaw, but Stalin in the past (and in the future, particularly in Hungary) was willing to ignore such things and insist pushing it past its limits. I'm fairly sure he was delighted to have the Poles and Germans slaughter each other. He went out of his way to allow this and did not cooperate with the allies so far as air resupply drops go. He was pretty brutal towards the London Poles and wanted them out of his way so he could install his pet government.


Good point. Yes, it's indeed a curious coincidence that Old Joe decided to pay respect to logistics that time :)




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/2/2011 9:02:04 AM)

Turn 43 - 9 April 1942

Not much of interest to report, yet. I've spent something like two hours poring over unit stats and shuffling counters around and rearranging commands. I will try to explain better before leaving Mud, but I'm aiming at keeping Soviet Armies frontage to a maximum of 5 hexes - in "quiet sectors" such as Rzhev - Kaluga - to 3 hexes - in the south. This has allowed me to free up six Armies to be deployed as operational reserves. Next turn I will setup my strategic reserve, basically formed by Rifle Bdes now, which are waiting to consolidate into Rifle Divisions next month.

On other new, two new Tank Corps have been formed, VVS tactical aviation has been sent to the National Reserve for rest & refit, many Guards fighter bomber squadrons have been upgraded and the slow withdrawal from the Crimea continues.




Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/2/2011 10:33:07 AM)

Whats your armament pool, manpower pool and OOB look like?

How long is to long from a railhead for Russian troops to see a big drop off in combat effectiveness?

Pelton




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/2/2011 11:32:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Whats your armament pool, manpower pool and OOB look like?

How long is to long from a railhead for Russian troops to see a big drop off in combat effectiveness?

Pelton


Armaments pool is slightly above 190k, manpower pool is increasing, at about 97k or so. I'm putting about 90k replacements into combat units since late February. The Red Army has by now about 5.8M soliders and about 4,000 AFVs (I can't recall the arty figure).

About your second question. The places where I observed a noticeable drop in combat efficiency were in excess of 20-25 MP's from the nearest railhead. Rather than radius - measured in hexes - it's all about MP's.




Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/2/2011 8:44:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Whats your armament pool, manpower pool and OOB look like?

How long is to long from a railhead for Russian troops to see a big drop off in combat effectiveness?

Pelton


Armaments pool is slightly above 190k, manpower pool is increasing, at about 97k or so. I'm putting about 90k replacements into combat units since late February. The Red Army has by now about 5.8M soliders and about 4,000 AFVs (I can't recall the arty figure).

About your second question. The places where I observed a noticeable drop in combat efficiency were in excess of 20-25 MP's from the nearest railhead. Rather than radius - measured in hexes - it's all about MP's.


Just tring to get a handle on bottleneck's for 1.05

Losing Moscow and Leningrad seems to be dropping manpower output down around 90k. In most cases the manpower for Moscow returns in X number of weeks.

Armaments I beleive you lost 54ish and that goes with another game where about same number was lost and he had 200k.

Poeple only losing 35ish have 300 - 400,000ish my March

Poeple losing 70+ are down under 100,000.

I would say the easyest bottle neck now is manpower and not armament points.

Which if looking at the AAR's Russian players are "mybee" railing out stuff to soon or railing out production when they should be railing around troops more or sooner.

Even losing historical 54 really is not hurting you at all, which is what happened during WWII. Another feather in 2 by 3's cap for 1.05.

One good thing about manpower is it cant be evaced.

I would say 70 is still death in general for SHC, but chances are if you hit that number you put a big hurt on the Red Machines manpower also and it be game set match. Other then playing game out.

So its basicly manpower is the easy bottleneck now.

Thanks for info and good luck during summer.

Pelton




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/3/2011 11:13:23 AM)

Turn 43 – 9 April 1942

Seems that Q-Ball was a bit bored with all this mud and stuff, and launched three serious – as in against something else than partisans – attacks. Two of them – both unsuccessful – were launched against our particular Brest fortress in the game. Guys, let me introduce you the 87th Fortified Region, the Heroes of the Soviet Union the Soviet citizenship feels more proud of

[image]http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/154/t4487thfortregion.png[/image]


Yes you're right, guys. These stalwart soldiers have been resisting here since July 1941, about 100 miles west of Gomel. I was betting against myself how long would Q-Ball these guys to keep burning the torch of Soviet resistance in occupied territory. Probably not much longer.

The second attack was something he did out of boredom and probably to calibrate the effect of mud on combat operations

[image]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9339/t44shaktybattle.png[/image]


near Shakty, next to Q-Ball's bridgehead on the Caucasus. I'm not really looking forward to allow him to have a nice three-hex jump off point so easily. Note how the German commander doubled his units CV. If that had not happened, I'd have won this battle.

Other than that, not much has happened besides the most unfortunate dead of Gen. Chuikov in a car accident. I'm sure I'll be missing him much more than his staff and subordinates.

Logistics & Organizations

I continue reforming Soviet motorized forces, forming up another Tank Corps. Next turn I will create another one, and that will be for now. Besides that I also build 7 Motorized Bdes. The idea is to pair each of these with one Tank Corps. Operating together, they're roughly the equivalent of a Panzer Division (in strength, of course). Also, they occupy two slots in one hex, which is substantially less efficient. I looking forward to see how does this turns out.

On the logistics front, this turn the Soviet industry is able to put 102,000 replacements, it's the first time the Manpower pool went down for a good five or six turns. I'm still producing quite a few Support Squads, their numbers have been between 1000 and 2000 each turn for the last five turns.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/3/2011 11:28:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Just tring to get a handle on bottleneck's for 1.05

Losing Moscow and Leningrad seems to be dropping manpower output down around 90k. In most cases the manpower for Moscow returns in X number of weeks.

Armaments I beleive you lost 54ish and that goes with another game where about same number was lost and he had 200k.

Poeple only losing 35ish have 300 - 400,000ish my March

Poeple losing 70+ are down under 100,000.

I would say the easyest bottle neck now is manpower and not armament points.

Which if looking at the AAR's Russian players are "mybee" railing out stuff to soon or railing out production when they should be railing around troops more or sooner.

Even losing historical 54 really is not hurting you at all, which is what happened during WWII. Another feather in 2 by 3's cap for 1.05.

One good thing about manpower is it cant be evaced.

I would say 70 is still death in general for SHC, but chances are if you hit that number you put a big hurt on the Red Machines manpower also and it be game set match. Other then playing game out.

So its basicly manpower is the easy bottleneck now.


Yes, even with losing just 15% of starting Armaments, things got back into track as soon as factories damaged got repaired. That and the surprising preference the engine has for building support squads.

I made the question a few posts above, but seems that nobody has a clue why during the whole 1941, support squad production looks like a train of spikes - several turns not building any, one turn spiking and building several thousand - while in 1942 I'm seeing an steady production of those ground elements. Note that Support squads gobble up a notable amount of manpower, but very little armaments.

Re: manpower. Yes, I think that's the real key of the whole campaign, and really is a question of math. Regarding how to best attack Soviet manpower... Raiding, as you very well say, it's a temporary measure, but certainly does help. I think the best strategy for the Axis in 1942 - and it's been for a very long time, just in 1.05 it is easier to implement - is to go after the Red Army, either by pocketing or smashing his combat formations. I would say that mere "shallow" pocketing isn't going to really work. All the Soviet has to do is to retreat and patch up the bites done by the German Motorized spearheads.

In my opinion, the best way to damage the Red Army and indirectly Soviet manpower (and production) is to go after a deep strike. This is not without risks: the shallow pocketing I mention is low risk, low payout. Deep striking is high risk and high payout. So why a deep strike against some economic strategic targets? Because the Soviet will be forced to send a lot of troops to block/delay/counter this strike. And these troops won't be benefitting from fortifications and terrain, if the Axis player is smart to realize which is the best terrain for the offense.

Historically, and recalling Krivosheen (spelling?) work on studying Soviet casualties during 20th Century, the Soviets lost about 2.5M men in the three months between July and October 1942. That's - comparatively speaking - much more than what they lose in the same period back in 1941. I'd say that inflicting in excess of 3.5M losses on the Red Army, raiding important manpower centers such as Voronezh and Stalingrad, and strategic targets as the Caucasus oil fields would give a reasonable chance for an Axis Minor Victory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Thanks for info and good luck during summer.


Thank you for reading, and glad that you find this AAR useful. I certainly see that you're getting some good info out of it, which makes me (even) more wary of you as an Axis player [;)]




randallw -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/4/2011 2:45:24 AM)

The retreat losses for the Soviets continue to be interesting; a heavy proportion were killed, compared to wounded.

What are you German players seeing in for a ratio in retreats?




ComradeP -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/4/2011 3:09:44 AM)

For both sides, lots of elements just die when forced to retreat, it's something of a pet peeve of mine. Sure, Soviet losses are higher overall, but the hand of God also smites the fascists when they retreat. Particularly in 1941 you can get results like 120 guys killed in combat and 1200 killed in the retreat. The gap between a successful and unsuccessful attack in terms of Axis casualties is huge, although the gap for Soviet casualties has narrowed due to Soviet casualties being higher overall.

As to the support squads: keep in mind that they're produced on demand, that a lot are dumped into the pool early on due to damage and TOE changes, if not disbands, and that generally speaking people are more likely to refit many units in 1941 than in 1942 which would lead to an increase in the manpower spend on creating combat elements.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/4/2011 10:37:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

For both sides, lots of elements just die when forced to retreat, it's something of a pet peeve of mine. Sure, Soviet losses are higher overall, but the hand of God also smites the fascists when they retreat. Particularly in 1941 you can get results like 120 guys killed in combat and 1200 killed in the retreat. The gap between a successful and unsuccessful attack in terms of Axis casualties is huge, although the gap for Soviet casualties has narrowed due to Soviet casualties being higher overall.


Yes, there's some variability but according to the manual - and from what I can observe, in general - the higher the experience of Ground elements, the least are retreat losses. There seems to be a "sweet" Exp threshold, very much as there is one with Morale and costs entering enemy hexes, where retreat losses (either destroyed or damaged) get a substantial cut back.

Yet another point to consider - and here I need to thank you ComradeP for explaining this to me - note that Damaged elements don't always are "repaired": some of them are "written off". This happens regardless of the ground element type (inf, arty or afv) and there's a significant turn delay between entering the damaged pool and resolving whether they're repaired or written off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to the support squads: keep in mind that they're produced on demand, that a lot are dumped into the pool early on due to damage and TOE changes, if not disbands, and that generally speaking people are more likely to refit many units in 1941 than in 1942 which would lead to an increase in the manpower spend on creating combat elements.


Yes, but still... I'm trying to curb demand by setting pretty draconian Max TOE's. I need to review Airbases (since many of these are being created or disbanded) and other stuff. I mean, having support squads in the right places, such as Army HQ's is a good thing - see the discussion above regarding damaged ground elements being repaired - but given the sorry state of the Red Army rifle divisions TOE's (about 20% under 50%, about 50% between 50% and 70%, 30% above 70%) I need to prioritize. The clock is ticking and the crocodile won't refrain from chewing my ass!




ComradeP -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/4/2011 7:29:12 PM)

quote:

Yes, there's some variability but according to the manual - and from what I can observe, in general - the higher the experience of Ground elements, the least are retreat losses.


Unfortunately for the defending player, that concept mostly works when attacking in terms of: higher experience=lower destroyed squads. When defending, a significant number of the casualties are KIA'ed, which is why it's a pet peeve of mine. Units around 80-90 experience do take lower retreat losses now than before (a few hundred less, which is good), but 70-80 experience divisions can still fairly easily take 1000 retreat losses. The Soviets also currently tend to take retreat losses they would only take when their units were routed before. Some downtuning of retreat casualties would be good for both sides.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/4/2011 7:37:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Yes, there's some variability but according to the manual - and from what I can observe, in general - the higher the experience of Ground elements, the least are retreat losses.


Unfortunately for the defending player, that concept mostly works when attacking in terms of: higher experience=lower destroyed squads. When defending, a significant number of the casualties are KIA'ed, which is why it's a pet peeve of mine. Units around 80-90 experience do take lower retreat losses now than before (a few hundred less, which is good), but 70-80 experience divisions can still fairly easily take 1000 retreat losses. The Soviets also currently tend to take retreat losses they would only take when their units were routed before. Some downtuning of retreat casualties would be good for both sides.


Thank you for the explanation, I was seeing an asymmetry between the attack and the defense I couldn't find an explanation for.

So the chances of losses grow according to some power law as the experience decreases? Interesting.




ComradeP -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/5/2011 12:28:07 PM)

Yes, in battles that are not distorted by high ROF elements or massive air support, experience and leader rolls do seem to have a significant effect on how many elements are destroyed/disabled and how many are just damaged.

When attacking, the experience+leader advantage seems to scale up faster than defending, however. Even the Soviets, with their ~50 morale/experience units, can get some good results (1000-1500 Soviet casualties) after the odds modifier is gone by March 1942, because that lowers disruption significantly. They can still suffer from having so many units in the fight that some elements will not fire, however, so the results can still be a bit distorted.

Generally speaking: the more units are involved, the more the results will be distorted in some way for both the attacker and defender.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/11/2011 11:41:20 AM)

Turn 47 – 7 May 1942


After having made a short hiatus with the AAR – work and the lack of anything interesting happening in the game being the causes – I'm back with it.

One of the strangest phases of the game is that of WitE historical weather mechanics for the May – June period. During 10 turns or so, weather will be flipping alternatively between clear and mud. This rapidly changing situation, on the one hand, prevents any kind of sustained offensive operations, but seems to invite the players to maneuver for the most advantageous positions for summer.

Since the Axis goes first, it would seem that he's the one with the initiative. However, the Soviet benefits from first, seeing what the Axis has done and has the opportunity to react accordingly, second, and most important from my point of view, is that whatever the Soviet does – provided he does something – can hardly be countered by the Axis effectively, because of the huge difficulty of doing anything during mud.

Q-Ball has conducted limited operations mainly in two sectors, Rzhev and the lower Don basin. These operations have resulted in 30 battles, of which 26 have turned out to be Axis victories. Q-Ball seems to have dropped Hasty attacks as his preferred mode of operation, and now is relying more on Deliberate attacks, which mean that he's not able to make much progress but also guarantee getting the hexes he wants.

Luftwaffe tactical aviations is still withdrawn, and my previous observations on the air war, especially regarding the fact that the Luftwaffe seems to perform better when it doesn't conduct ground support missions is confirmed. The VVS has lost about 100 planes in air combat, while the Luftwaffe a mere 4. That's what I would certainly deem as “outstanding performance” :)

Operational Situation

Seems that Q-Ball was a bit surprised to find that I wasn't stacking too much in the frontline, having in most sectors one single unit in each hex in contact with him, and asked me if it had caught me flatfooted or something. Not really. I am relying now on a very different strategy, which might need some adjusting, and I will be detailing as I review the situation.

Stopping the Germans right on their start line is something which isn't going to happen unless we're talking about highly fortified cities or riverlines. In consequence, stacking most of my forces on the frontline – as some of the readers have hinted at – serves little or no purpose. Attacked hexes don't get support from neighboring hexes in any way, and the swift mobility of German motorized formations makes common the case that a good number of divisions become isolated after little or no combat. That's certainly something I need to avoid at all costs.

Let's take a look at Rzhev, where Q-Ball has massed two ArmeeKorps against the positions held by Kalinin Front 54th Army southwest to the city

[image]http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/7386/t47rzhevsitrep.png[/image]


I think it's interesting to show you the details of both attacks, as they will show a couple of things. The north attack was carried by troops coming from four separate commands – including LVII PzKorps – and went pretty badly for 359th Rifle Division

[image]http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8712/t47359rddefeat.png[/image]


and the south attack involved 332nd Rifle Division, which was assaulted by two German ArmeKorps

[image]http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9513/t47332rddefeat.png[/image]


In both cases, I lost. But how did I lose? Odds and reported casualty numbers only explain part of the story, and perhaps the least interesting part of it.

In both cases, I got reserves committed, which is the mechanic that allows us to increase the force committed to a particular single hex without sitting in it. This is perhaps one of the least used – judging from how infrequently are they discussed openly - and understood game mechanics. It is chance based, and by looking at the bare chances, seems like something “far fetched” to rely on. I disagree, and my opinion – which is partly proven by the combats this turn – is that if attention is paid to the # of MP's available to Reserve units, placement and leaders, one can get a very high ratio of reserve commitment. Of the 30 battles I had, in about 15 or more there were reserves committed.

Reserve commitment usually results in higher losses for both sides – after all Reserves are attacking into the hex, not taking advantage of terrain defensive bonuses – and this is indeed quite good. What I need to do is to cause as many losses as possible on the Wehrmacht and contest every hex. I don't need to hold very hex. This is a subtle, yet critical issue to consider in order to defend effectively in WitE.

If we remove the ground elements destroyed because of retreat, in both combats, the number of destroyed and damaged elements during Ground combat are actually telling us a lot about what happened. In the northern attack, the Axis lost 41 and 88 were damaged, the Soviets lost 93 and 120 were damaged. This is a 2.5:1 exchange in destroyed elements, and a 1.5:1 exchange in damaged elements. In the southern attack, the Axis lost 167 and 235 were damaged, while the defenders lost 89 and got 148 damaged. That's a 1:2 exchange in destroyed elements, and a 1:1.5 exchange in damaged elements. So while both look as shiny victories for the Axis, the truth is that these were pretty bloody affairs with a substantial price tag attached.

Last but not least: in this way Retreat losses are greatly reduced. Since the Axis is going to win most of the time, it makes little sense – from another perspective – to stack too much in front hexes.

To summarize, by doing this – deploying one unit in the front – stacking two or so behind I achieve several main things: to reduce retreat losses (less units are retreating), increasing chances of Reserves being committed, and having a more flexible stance which makes somewhat more difficult to Axis to bag many units with relatively little effort.

Besides that, I adopted a three tiered deployment – where terrain and troop availability allows – consisting in frontline armies, operational reserve armies and strategic reserves. I try to place operational reserves at about 4 hexes max from the front line. These are the guys who are meant to plug gaps and make difficult for Q-Ball to move so freely when he achieves a breakthrogh. In the picture above 54th Army isn't really complying with this policy. I'm a big believer in terrain, so I ditched the rule here :)

In the picture you can see only one real strategic Reserve: 39th Army. Strategic reserves are much deeper and I prioritize having them near or in railroads. To the south lies 52nd Army, which is actually the operational reserve for the Mozhaisk sector defended by Western Front 20th Army.

So I'm trying to play this flexible. Q-Ball will gain land, but he should have trouble inflicting massive losses without incurring in heavy losses of his own.

In the South Q-Ball seems to be better prepared for offensive operations, or at least, he had a clear goal to pursue

[image]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6885/t47lowerdonsitrep.png[/image]


that of expanding his bridgehead over the Don. I certainly need to further reinforce this sector: one Army is already on its way, and the troops I'm taking from the Crimea will help as well. I have at least two or three armies more available which I'm still doubting about committing. I don't want to encourage him to changes his plans – whatever they are – since they seem to be going in the direction I was expecting. This crossing is going to be contested, and I do really plan to make it difficult for him to further expand it.

Most worrying that his ops around Rostov, is his insistence in broadening a bulge in the Starobelsk region. That's a signal that he's not doing that just for the sake of killing Soviets.

Logistics & Organization


Time to consolidate the Rifle Brigades into Divisions... something I desperately need to do. Of the two choices available – form up nearly 100% TOE divisions with three brigades or to form up about 66% TOE divisions with just two brigades – I go for the latter. I really need to cover the losses I had during March in terms of counters, and I certainly do share Flavio's view that it's the most efficient thing to do in the long run. A total of 51 divisions are built in this way. I'm sparing a few brigades and especially Naval Rifle Brigades, which I find to be a pretty good asset.

This turn I've taken yet another look at production, and decided to make monthly summaries detailing what has been built, and what percentage of manpower of resources each item is consuming. The results for the last four turns are quite interesting. I see that I've put into “built” units, about 400,000 men and 245,000 armaments points. So while I'm using up 100% of my manpower production, armament production is clearly well over the needs of the Red Army (more so since I still have most Artillery SU's at 50% Max TOE, with the exception of Guards units). Manpower is really the key to everything in this game, not supplies nor armament points.

Another interesting thing to look is the proportion of men used to furnish Support squads vs. Rifle squads. I see that Support squad production has gobbled a 34% of all the manpower available, which I think it's a big figure, but now I'm not sure it's that much of an issue. 54% of the manpower, and 51% of the armaments, have gone into Rifle Squad production. Anybody interested in checking these number themselves, are invited to look them up in the game's spreadsheet.

Operations

The defense in depth doctrine that I'm applying – and still developing, would be nice to have some discussion about this – entails two other “bonuses”.

One is that I'm inviting Q-Ball to attack. This is important, since as we've seen, things can be rigged so that what looks as the Germans mopping the floor, becomes actually a pretty grim battle of attrition. This attacking also diverts Q-Ball attention from what I can do on his troops.

Second, and probably most important, now I have substantial forces placed to move and attack Q-Ball where his line isn't as strong as it could be. Yes guys, I mean to be attacking as much as possible on every spot that looks to me as particularly weak.

The above translates into 8 combats, all of them have ended up being victories. I've attacked the weakest Romanian divisions in the front – I think German infantry is a bit overstretched since Q-Ball decided to relieve the Finns in the north – and weak German infantry divisions occupying barely fortified hexes. One thing I've looked after is to get as many Tank Corps involved in these local attacks, thus harvesting “victories”

[image]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1245/t474thshockvictory.png[/image]


such as the one above. I think I really hit hard this Romanian division, perhaps one of the best in the whole Romanian Army. Note the proportion between Destroyed and Damaged ground elements during Ground combat: it's similar to the figures I discussed above, but swapping roles. Tank Corps mobility allows them to strike and then retreat behind my infantry... mimicking to some extent what Q-Ball has been doing for some time now in those sectors where he's been wary of my strength.

Most relevant of all the attacks are the ones I've done on the flanks of the Don bridgehead

[image]http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3116/t47donbridgehead.png[/image]


east of Rostov. He's really got there a lot of strength, and I had troubles to muster the forces to counterattack, having to forgo the attack on the 9-9 Motorized Division next to Rostov. This narrow corridor – and the upcoming mud – under ZOC and across a major river, should entail very little supply arriving to these units. If I see Q-Ball fueling his Panzers here with planes, then this will be right. If he doesn't have problems supplying and fueling these units without relying to air transport... well, that sort of speaks volumes of the problems with logistics modeling in WitE.

Q-Ball has also been adjusting his tactics in the air, from what I see. He seems to have set Ground Support off for his forces, while setting high levels of Interdiction, meaning that my movement was hindered by 8 interdicition attacks. Certainly the Luftwaffe tends to suffer less losses doing this than on a Ground Support role. The air war raged during my turn, and 45 Axis airplanes were downed for about 54 Soviet airplanes. It seems to me this isn't really an effective way of curbing Soviet air power. But I really wonder if there exists an effective way at all...




Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/11/2011 12:39:16 PM)

Good stuff BG.

I learn more about what to do or not do as German from Russian AAR's

Your game plan to me looks very sound and backed up by data. Your over all ideas on attrition, reserves, counter attacking, morale ticks and front line should work as long as you avoid large pockets (20+)

Putting 1 unit in front is by far the best tactic as long as you have the ground to give. The only way to counter is as German is with an infantry army(12+ divisions) that has high morale(85+)/ high TOE and allot of equipment. Which vs most German players will not happen.

I think to many Russian players get hung up on not losing any troops or land. The fact is they will.

So their lack of planning for the worst really handy caps them once their front breaks and they panic making loses much worst then they could have been.

You are planning for the worst case and hoping for the best.

Your points on manpower and armament are confirming what other AAR's are seeing. A lose of less then 60 armament points is not going to have an effect on SHC production. The key is manpower production.

You need to make sure you hang onto the major population center, Moscow being the key one for sure.

Were Q-ball is attacking is where you want him attacking. Thats the lowest manpower area you have to lose.

A front with 1 unit, 2nd line with 2 units and then a checker board for a few hexes with local reserves and SHC reserves is proably the best to start summer. Once you know where he has committed his forse you need to react quickly.

Your best chance as your planning is to wear down his main offensive and then counter it with pressure were you can allong the front.

At some point it will be a game of chicken to see who will stop first.

You have more chickens [8D]

Pelton




BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (12/11/2011 12:55:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Good stuff BG.

I learn more about what to do or not do as German from Russian AAR's


Thank you Pelton. It's nice to see the effort to put together in a coherent way my thoughts and outlooks on the game result interesting - and perhaps even enlightening ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Your game plan to me looks very sound and backed up by data. Your over all ideas on attrition, reserves, counter attacking, morale ticks and front line should work as long as you avoid large pockets (20+)

Putting 1 unit in front is by far the best tactic as long as you have the ground to give. The only way to counter is as German is with an infantry army(12+ divisions) that has high morale(85+)/ high TOE and allot of equipment. Which vs most German players will not happen.

I think to many Russian players get hung up on not losing any troops or land. The fact is they will.

So their lack of planning for the worst really handy caps them once their front breaks and they panic making loses much worst then they could have been.

You are planning for the worst case and hoping for the best.


The last sentence very much sums it all up. The hard part is to - once you take for granted - develop a coherent battle plan that is consistent with that. And that's the really hard part to be consequent and consistent with this... when you have to be consistent. I mean, the overall deployment has that philosophy, but in some places it has to be discarded in order to take advantage of terrain. Or as with the Lower Don bridgehead, where I'm not really following yet (next turn I'll get stuff more organized).

Once you realize that you don't have many options during your opponent turn, then it all boils down to figure out how to settle things so that in your own turn you can react.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Your points on manpower and armament are confirming what other AAR's are seeing. A lose of less then 60 armament points is not going to have an effect on SHC production. The key is manpower production.

You need to make sure you hang onto the major population center, Moscow being the key one for sure.


That's the main reason I am reluctant to move the yet very substantial reserves around to the South. South is important for industry... north is important since it is the Russian heartland, where most of my recruits come from. Note that this eerily mirrors the strategic situation for the Soviets in 1942.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Were Q-ball is attacking is where you want him attacking. Thats the lowest manpower area you have to lose.


Yes I want him attacking there... but I'm sort of trying to dance with a tiger here. If I f*ck up things there, he can get Baku... and with no petrol - or substantially less petrol - I'm going to have some problems...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
A front with 1 unit, 2nd line with 2 units and then a checker board for a few hexes with local reserves and SHC reserves is proably the best to start summer. Once you know where he has committed his forse you need to react quickly.

Your best chance as your planning is to wear down his main offensive and then counter it with pressure were you can allong the front.

At some point it will be a game of chicken to see who will stop first.

You have more chickens [8D]


I have more chickens, indeed, but I can't really spare too many of them. I have the hunch that the more I linger massed around Moscow, the more he'll be seduced by the idea of trying to get Voronezh, Stalingrad and Baku. And probably do a fighting withdrawal during Autumn and Winter to the lines he was more or less holding by the end of Blizzard. If he goes directly against Moscow, without causing me huge trouble in the south... well, the Germans will be deeming Verdun as a walk in the park.




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