RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (Full Version)

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gingerbread -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 4:59:39 PM)

How does it feel to be the sole voice of reason. Flaviusx?  [;)]

Since BG might very well be a recipient of the Axis grind, I thought it not appropriate to here ask what countermeasures to it that you tried vs James?

Myself, I have high hopes (perhaps too high) in the 120mm Mortar Bn. With say 6-8 in each army, there should be a steady toll on the German infantry.

The Bn's are very cheap at 350 MP/ARM, so having 100+ in total is doable.



Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:01:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think the day of overwhelming Soviet blizzard offensives is gone. It's just much weaker now than it used to be. And every good German player is falling back and keeping his distance from the Red Army -- easier to do now than ever since they're gaining more territory than before.

I hear a lot of stuff on these forums about how the game is biased in favor of the Soviets. My own view is this patch is a gift to Axis players. We overcorrected, imo, and the game isn't really playing anything like historical anymore. Leningrad and Moscow are both falling regularly, there's the infamous Lvov opening, etc.

We've really gone out of our way to accomodate the German player base. Whether this actually resembles history is another matter.



The patch will still not get the German to survive until May of 45.

So Germans take Leningrad and Moscow. Russian production is insane, the manpower simply is moved and you get it back withen a yr. Yes it feels good taking Moscow, but means next to nothing.

1.05 moved the end game from early 44 to early 45.

Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

There are allot of things on the russian side that dont reflect history, like Command and control, Russian infantry corps being stronger then German in late 42 ect ect.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.

Pelton



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:07:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
How does it feel to be the sole voice of reason. Flaviusx?  [;)]


Hey, I'm not crazy! *tries to jump forward to get a hold of gingerbread neck, two 170kg guys restraint him while dragging back to his cell for proper medication*

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
Since BG might very well be a recipient of the Axis grind, I thought it not appropriate to here ask what countermeasures to it that you tried vs James?


Why not? [:(] I'd love to hear about that.



Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:10:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would agree with you, but TVD is raping me in our current game an I had the same defence as I am using with ease vs M60.

I think I know what hes doing. Hes got piles and piles of 1 cv armor and cav units (1 cv during blizzard) and about 1/2 of what I see normally for strong units.

He uses the strong units to open a crack in the line then ZOC's 8 to 10 german units along front lines. You can generally save 50% with counter attacks.

He does it again. Hes discovered an exploit that is really smart an is what cripples the German army.
Its not the zoc trap, but once a units surrenders it comes back and is filled up with the new replasements filtering back to front.


I wouldn't say that's an "exploit" Pelton, careful with that word, man :)

Could you (or TDV himself) explain precisely what these consists of? Is he infiltrating brigades taking advantage of the reduced MP costs to move from ZOC to ZOC for brigades and regiments?


Never played the Russian side, but in 17 games and reading many AAR's hes the only one doing this tactic. Its really what happen historically. Both sides were trashed at end of Blizzard. I think the smart way to do blizzard would be to do partly what hes doing and partly what everyone esle is doing.

And no I will not say exactly what hes doing I am not interested in lossing 1,000,000 men every blizzard. Not that I can explain it, unless hes hacking the data file and giving his units more MP's hehehe.

Not sure how or when his units will every get to far from railheads or trash his truck forse, mybee never.

Pelton





gingerbread -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:10:37 PM)

Sorry, I forgot the double negation. Please read: not inappropriate.



Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:14:29 PM)

Exploit is not anything bad. First of the German player should be able to shut off refit before the unit can fill up.

Its kinda sad really no one on the Russian side has not figured this out in 2 yrs.

1 million plus blizzard O is still alive and kicking.



janh -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 5:58:50 PM)

I tend to agree with Flavius, but maybe Soviet players have just to learn how to max out their blizzard attacks -- use every toy like Germans...

On the other hand, the Soviet blizzard offensive wasn't anything particularly skillful if I recall correctly. It was more like throwing everything against the German positions, often in frontal attacks, and units sneaking thru the gaps left by German units retiring to populated and protective terrain to find cover from the weather and the attackers. So I would expect that a rather poor player should also be able to inflict numerically "high" losses on the Germans on average, and a skillful player should even be able to create gaps and push units into the German rear, maybe even create something like a Demyansk pocket or so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The patch will still not get the German to survive until May of 45.


The logical conclusion is what has been stated by others, and what the G&G team is said to be working on: Optempo for the offensive is too high, probably because logistics is too forgiving. It should be much more challenging to take Moscow (and probably Leningrad and Rostov) without running out of steam or depleting own units by pushing too fast and hard, and it should similarly require the Soviets to slow down for some time after executing an offensive with huge front such as Bagration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
So Germans take Leningrad and Moscow. Russian production is insane, the manpower simply is moved and you get it back withen a yr. Yes it feels good taking Moscow, but means next to nothing.


The "Generalstab der Wehrmacht" complaining... However accurate the present model is, the Russian Army after 43 was probably not exactly short of equipment. Especially the number of tanks, guns and planes they did produce is just amazing for such a short mobilization and given the evacuations. We Germans could only have dreamed of that, but instead we focused on technically way to complex, expensive and failure-prone solutions.

"Loss of manpower" probably reflects population fleeing to other cities (like the population evacuation messages show) and into the adjacent villages and territory. Rebuilding manpower probably has to do with the fugitives returning to their old dwellings... The rate at which they presently return looks reasonable. The more important question is the depth of the sources, when will Russian manpower be drained? Can there be a Russian manpower shortage in 45 with 1.05?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.


I guess Stalin would have confirmed that. And Napoleon learned it like he Wehrmacht did a little later. Terrain and cities mean nothing as long as a large part of the industry and population resides further East, out of German reach. Isn't that a key lesson of both attempts to bring Russia down?



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 6:06:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
So I would expect that a rather poor player should also be able to inflict numerically "high" losses on the Germans on average, and a skillful player should even be able to create gaps and push units into the German rear, maybe even create something like a Demyansk pocket or so.


The latter part is truly the hallmark of a really good Soviet player. It also helps that your opponent goes insane and becomes oblivious to the dangers of encirclement... which is perhaps another shortcoming of the present engine. The Isolated mechanics need to be reviewed, they're too binary (as in capturing pieces in chess).

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.


I guess Stalin would have confirmed that. And Napoleon learned it like he Wehrmacht did a little later. Terrain and cities mean nothing as long as a large part of the industry and population resides further East, out of German reach. Isn't that a key lesson of both attempts to bring Russia down?


Cities aren't window dressing. Operationally, are the focal points for battle (and this is covered by game mechanics, since reserve commitments gets automatic for battles in urban terrain). Anyone worth its salt won't do a frontal attack on a city if he can avoid it (or he's sure there aren't many reserves to be committed to the battle). Strategically, I tend to agree with both of you.

BTW, the manpower repair thing could also be modeling the fact that after the chaos of the flight eastwards, Soviet authorities get a hold of the situation and start drafting the guys as soon as they come down from the cattle wagon :-)



janh -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 6:32:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Cities aren't window dressing. Operationally, are the focal points for battle (and this is covered by game mechanics, since reserve commitments gets automatic for battles in urban terrain). Anyone worth its salt won't do a frontal attack on a city if he can avoid it (or he's sure there aren't many reserves to be committed to the battle). Strategically, I tend to agree with both of you.

BTW, the manpower repair thing could also be modeling the fact that after the chaos of the flight eastwards, Soviet authorities get a hold of the situation and start drafting the guys as soon as they come down from the cattle wagon :-)


That's true, cities where key factors from at least three aspects, two of which are "fully" and one is partly modeled in-game:
(i) defensive value
(ii) logistical and communications centers (which in fact comes down to key infrastructure like rail yards, ports and warehouses rather than the city or industrial value)
(iii) political or prestige value (which is only partly modeled by Victory Points, neglecting any wider impact that may be very difficult to determine or quantify)
Perhaps the most important value was as logistical centers to store and distribute supplies and replacements?

What I rather meant was that taking or losing a single city didn't really change the outcome of the war. For example, although the evacuation of Moscow was underway in early December 41, it doesn't appear that its loss would have meant an end to the war. A prolongation, and for some time hardships due to the lost rail infrastructure and factories, but probably the Soviets would have found a solution within a surprisingly short time that would have rendered the loss more an "another inconvenience" than a crippling blow that the Germans where looking for...



Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/25/2011 11:51:03 PM)

quote:

The logical conclusion is what has been stated by others, and what the G&G team is said to be working on: Optempo for the offensive is too high, probably because logistics is too forgiving. It should be much more challenging to take Moscow (and probably Leningrad and Rostov) without running out of steam or depleting own units by pushing too fast and hard, and it should similarly require the Soviets to slow down for some time after executing an offensive with huge front such as Bagration.


Its impossible to take Moscow vs and equal enemy. Problem is most Russian players have no idea what they are doing. They been playing inexp german players and think the know the game then play a German player with a clue and get crushed.

Jamiam could not take Moscow vs Flaviusx, I have failed vs 3 poeple, sure the other 14 games I took it, mainly because the Russian players didn't fully know what they are doing.

It was not that hard for them to hold Moscow and 1 held Leningrad.

Only reason BG lost a few hexes was because of a major poop poop of not garrisoning city. Q-Ball is a very good German and failed to take Moscow and Rostov.

Slowing the tempo with simply make everyone want to play Russian side, its alrdy still easy for the russian player to win.

Dumbing down the game to help out unskilled russian players would be another stupid mistake, but would not be a big surpise. Most Russians I play brag about how they played 2,3,4,5,6, or more games and can't get a German player to get through blizzard.

Then they play a good German player of which there are very few and they cant get to 43. Its because you need to play good players to get skills or read the AAR's which many of these uber russians never do.

The game is very unforgiving if you think you know what your doing and really don't.

The game is about right now, but needs to get some 1.05 games into 44 to 45 for final tweaking.

We just dont know if its right or wrong.

Guys like flaviusx want the German side to be stuck with 100% historical rules and his side the russian side to beable to do whatever they want.

No big surpise when he comes out saying its to easy to take Moscow when he never lost it vs Jamiam or anyone esle for that matter.

He wants more Russian production, no Lvov pocket, no HQ build-up, lower German suplys ect ect ect.

If he had his way the game would be a joke by now.

Pelton



Flaviusx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 12:00:02 AM)

Russian production is fine.

The rest of it, yeah. Pelton, you've broken the game's supply model and are abusing it wildly. The only reason you haven't been taking Moscow more often is because you put your little tactic to use on the wrong strategy: chasing factories. This strategy can be stopped and frustrated. I showed you how.

If you stick to destroying the Red Army, Moscow will be yours in most games, as you are beginning to discover.

I will never accept the Lvov opening, either. I think it puts the game on the wrong foot from the getgo.

1.05 is the Axis player's wet dream. We overcorrected.




Peltonx -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 12:22:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Russian production is fine.

The rest of it, yeah. Pelton, you've broken the game's supply model and are abusing it wildly. The only reason you haven't been taking Moscow more often is because you put your little tactic to use on the wrong strategy: chasing factories. This strategy can be stopped and frustrated. I showed you how.

If you stick to destroying the Red Army, Moscow will be yours in most games, as you are beginning to discover.

I will never accept the Lvov opening, either. I think it puts the game on the wrong foot from the getgo.

1.05 is the Axis player's wet dream. We overcorrected.




Did you lose Moscow vs Jamiam?

No so whining about it bbeing so easy then why have you not lost it?

Its because Moscow is impossible to take vs a Good russian player and your one of the best.

Most poeple that play this game don't have a handle on 75% of the game, **** I am still learning after 17 games.

There are what 5 or 6 good German players and there are what 10ish good Russian.

Yes sure I can make the average Russian Look like crap, but so can you make the average German look like crap.
1.05 nerfed German Logistics, nerfed russian production that about it and took out the Russian I win button (1v1=2v1)

Dumbing down the game to help out some of your Russian friends is not going to help the game.

Most Russians I play make the claim they cant find a German to get past the blizzard. Its still far easyer to play this game as the Russian.

1.05 put the game into late 44/early 45. If you want to go back to it ending in 43 as was the norm before 1.05 you simply will be killing the game.

You as always want the German player in the historical box and want your side the Russian to beable to do whatever you like screw history ect ect

Al things being fair your not.

Once you lose Moscow vs an equal player then come whine about how 1.05 is a gift.

Pelton



KenchiSulla -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 12:31:19 AM)

I think it is still to early to say if 1.05 was overcorrecting. I do feel my army is very damaged after the 17 turns of buttkicking (some of it my own fault, lost many rifle divisions in pockets) and many are suffering from very low morale (that is something I can't help). I might hold Moscow in my game vs Helio but I wonder how good a blizzard offensive I can mount.

The game, however, is far from historical now. The operational tempo is very high and without the ability to respond to "HQ buildup Blitzkrieg" in weekly turns, the ability to "harvest" troops into pockets and the absolute reduction in CV magically when pocketed the only thing you can do is run for the hills...

O, and Pelton, stop accusing everyone of fanboyism and mentioning "russian" friends every chance you get. There is really only one clear fanboy here, and thats you...



JAMiAM -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 2:05:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Did you lose Moscow vs Jamiam?

Our game has been on hold, due to Flavio's real life commitments. IIRC, we're about 1-2 turns from the end of the rasputina. Hard to tell exactly, since we're playing with random weather, but I figure that I have about a 40-60% chance to take Moscow before blizzard. To do this, I will be fairly exhausted, and overextended - succeed, or fail.

If I succeed, Flavio's winter counteroffensive would be reduced in strength by whatever I might bag in any Moscow pocket. It could be substantial. or minimal, depending on whether he decides to abandon or continue fighting. If I fail, I will be ripe for a massive butt-raping. Knife's edge play can be addictively exciting. One of these days, we'll continue and see what will happen.



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 2:58:51 PM)

Sorry for the derail, but;

By most accounts, the Germans had Leningrad for the taking in late July/August of 1941. They passed on the opportunity. You also wonder what would have happen had the diverson to the south not taken place and with the Russians running, there won't be the opportunity for it or the delay it imposes. As it was, the Germans came close to Moscow.

Right now, the Germans are doing better than historical in part because of the logistics benefits and also it appears their tactics have evolved and the Russians are in catch up mode.

The Russians had it so easy before 1.05 that they sat on the basic tactics they were using (run, carpet and introduce the Germans to a forest of level 3-4 forts). At that point, the only AARs that were showing any consistent German success and any shot at a "regular" 1942 were Peltons with a very few others.

With 1.05, the Russians can't do the same thing they were doing before and expect to kick the snot out of the Germans. Their forest of level 3-4 forts are gone and they are having issues adapting at this point in time, but the Russians are being forced to look at tactics and adapt to how the game is now. I think with a few minor tweaks and some thought on the Russian side of the front in terms of tactics, Russian performance will improve. Remember how poorly many Germans were doing at the start of the game and look at the discussions in the War Room about it as the Germans worked on new tactics in order to improve in the first part of the campaign. The Russians have not really done anything along these lines yet. (Not saying they have to, but a regroup on the part of the Russians discussing tactics and options needs to take place imo to help the Russian side players with the changes in game).

I detest premature changes for the sake of "game balance" before the community has a chance to work on some countermeasures. I quit playing SFB tourny's because of their penchant to do that sort of crap. What worked one year would not work the next as other players would develop other tactics and countermeasures even before they made changes and after they changed stuff, it made the previous years "winners" worthless. There have been a pile of patches. Let the community get some testing time with what is going on now and give them a chance to adapt. (Adapting does not equal one side or the other screaming for nerfs for the other side btw).



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 3:36:23 PM)

Not a derail, but interesting discussion Klydon :)

By the way, what's SFB?



gingerbread -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 4:24:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Not a derail, but interesting discussion Klydon :)

By the way, what's SFB?


SFB? Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAstrumStudio#p/u/12/GRDymgW6RA4

From: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2948164



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 4:27:31 PM)

SFB = Star Fleet Battles. Board game.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 4:34:08 PM)

Hahahaha, very funny the thread, I found these two especially hilarious


[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/29942/72A8C263C1B845D497314D838A15BE0D.jpg[/image]


[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/35889/5FEF36D463B048CCA592DDD41D7B334E.jpg[/image]


but SFB is something like "Star Fleet Battles"? A mod of the venerable Starfleet Academy?



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 4:44:54 PM)

Serious derail now. :D

Here is a wiki link. Basically a board game that "simulates" combat in the Star Trek Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battles



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 4:53:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Serious derail now. :D


We were getting too serious here, and perhaps getting nowhere. Since it's likely we'll eventually discuss the topics brought forward again soon, I think it's good to chill out for a while and have a good laugh :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Here is a wiki link. Basically a board game that "simulates" combat in the Star Trek Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battles


Thank you for the pointer, Klydon :) Heard about the game, but never played it. I spent my money on FASA's Battletech instead ;)



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 5:33:05 PM)

Battletech eh? [:)]

Ever hear of a fanzine called Tech Factory or Mech Factory?



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 5:43:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Battletech eh? [:)]

Ever hear of a fanzine called Tech Factory or Mech Factory?


Nope, never got wind of that here in the Spanish backwater [:)]



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 6:00:22 PM)

It has been awhile since it was last published, but it was through most of the 90's.

Many mech programs (programs to print sheets and design your mechs) have Tech Factory mechs. (Heavymetal Pro and Skunkworks to name a couple). It also had scenarios, reviews, etc for Battle Tech and after the first three issues, for some other games as well, notably Steel Legions.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 6:40:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

It has been awhile since it was last published, but it was through most of the 90's.

Many mech programs (programs to print sheets and design your mechs) have Tech Factory mechs. (Heavymetal Pro and Skunkworks to name a couple). It also had scenarios, reviews, etc for Battle Tech and after the first three issues, for some other games as well, notably Steel Legions.


Skunkworks... that certainly makes sound a ring :)

By the way, you know about this, don't you?



Klydon -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/26/2011 8:09:04 PM)

Yes, I think there are some Tech Factory mechs there as well. 



76mm -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/27/2011 7:24:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Hes discovered an exploit that is really smart an is what cripples the German army.


As if we needed additional proof, any tactic that is effective against you is an "exploit"...would you please give it a rest?



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/29/2011 8:25:46 AM)

Turn 41 – 26 March 1942

March has left me a metallic taste in the mouth, since I've got quite a few bloody noses over the last four turns. And this one, while hasn't entailed anything really catastrophic, it's ripe with ill omens for the summer. This turn Q-Ball has launched 43 attacks, only 5 of them being successful defenses, for a cost of 10,000 KIA and 10,000 disabled, along with 340 artillery pieces and 46 AFV's. The Red Army has got thoroughly pummeled, with 18,000 KIA and 50,000 disabled, over 2,500 artillery pieces and 244 AFV's. Besides that, Q-Ball has netted 73,000 further POW's. German POW camps swell with Soviet citizens.

Q-Ball has sent his tactical aviation back to the Reserve, this turn air combat has only involved German fighters and recon airplanes. The VVS has lost 123 airframes in air combat, and the Luftwaffe just 28.

Operational Situation Report

Q-Ball has been conducting quite a few “oportunistic” attacks on soft spots in my lines. Nothing too worrying, to be honest, as he maneuvers for position in several sectors. The bad thing has happened in the south

[image]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3765/t41lowerdonsitrep.png[/image]


not only he's got a bridgehead over the Don, sweeping to one sides three armies, but also has left Rostov ripe for the taking. The situation here is appaling. Fortunately I've substantial reinforcements concentrated to the southeast, around Salsk. It's also very interesting that he's established a bridgehead over the Aidar river, near Starobelsk. This gives me a general idea of what Q-Ball is planning for summer.

Logistics and Organization

This turn I get four more Cavalry divisions attaining Guards status, increasing the count of Guards Cavalry Corps to three. One of the very few positive things this turn, to be honest.

There's been a substantial reduction in the number of recruits the Soviet Union generates, this turn it's down to about 97,000 replacements. At least Support Squads production has reduced by half, gobbling just 22,000 men.

It's been a long time since I showed you the status of air and hard ground elements pools

[image]http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4601/t41production.png[/image]


while AFV pools look to me – there's only a scarcity of KV-1s – airplane pools are a complete disaster. I can't maintain my IL-2 regiments, although this turn finally my factories have started to grow anew. I think I'll take most of the VVS to the National Reserve and thoroughly reorganize – and optimize – my tactical aviation deployment.

Operations

Nothing worth showing with a screenshot. I reorganize my lines northeast of Orel, to pull back from the front the 1st and 2nd Shock Armies for resting and refitting. I'd like to do the same with 3rd and 4th Shock Armies, but until I can consolidate brigades into divisions, I'm lacking enough divisions. Perhaps I should build Rifle Divisions, but I think I need more the Tank Corps.

Q-Ball has obtained a handsome victory this March. He's pushed me more than 200 miles in the Donbass, destroying over 20 division equivalent units, and inflicting the following losses:

KIA: 98,792
POW: 199,003
Disabled: 200,505
Arty: 9,643
AFV: 1,135

which are quite important, almost double than the ones I got during December 41. The cost for him hasn't too high, I think:

KIA: 73,304
POW: 695
Disabled: 67,845
Arty: 2,128
AFV: 357

almost a 4:1 exchange, which is very positive for the Axis.

I must admit I'm a bit sad right now seeing the state of the Red Army. I don't see the Red Army able to withstand the summer onslaught, in any way other than fighting a flexible defense, which means giving away a lot of ground. And that kills me: I'm not someone who likes to run, I want to play. Will this mean that I can get Q-Ball to overextend himself? Sincerely, I doubt it. He'll probably play the Meat Grinder card, and there's not really anything in the Soviet arsenal to stop that, until I start getting Rifle Corps.

Fort levels were low... but were as good as weather allowed. And these aren't going to stop the Wehrmacht. Fortification will take place, but well to the rear on the chokepoints leading to Baku and Stalingrad. Another top priority area is Voronezh. I doubt that Moscow is on Q-Ball agenda for next summer, since it doesn't serve much of a purpose to strike me there, other than to create a diversion.

The only place where I think I've been able to do well has been in the Orel sector. Certainly, there weren't as many powerful motorized units up there as in the south. But having a 2nd echelon about 40 miles behind the MLR where able to keep the Panzers in check. Of course, this 2nd echelon basically consisted of the cream of the crop in the RKKA ranks.



janh -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/29/2011 11:08:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

I must admit I'm a bit sad right now seeing the state of the Red Army. I don't see the Red Army able to withstand the summer onslaught, in any way other than fighting a flexible defense, which means giving away a lot of ground. And that kills me: I'm not someone who likes to run, I want to play. Will this mean that I can get Q-Ball to overextend himself? Sincerely, I doubt it. He'll probably play the Meat Grinder card, and there's not really anything in the Soviet arsenal to stop that, until I start getting Rifle Corps.

Fort levels were low... but were as good as weather allowed. And these aren't going to stop the Wehrmacht. Fortification will take place, but well to the rear on the chokepoints leading to Baku and Stalingrad. Another top priority area is Voronezh. I doubt that Moscow is on Q-Ball agenda for next summer, since it doesn't serve much of a purpose to strike me there, other than to create a diversion.

The only place where I think I've been able to do well has been in the Orel sector. Certainly, there weren't as many powerful motorized units up there as in the south. But having a 2nd echelon about 40 miles behind the MLR where able to keep the Panzers in check. Of course, this 2nd echelon basically consisted of the cream of the crop in the RKKA ranks.


Well, if you can't get him to overextend, this war could drag on into 46... But the same things that presently benefit the Axis advances of the first years will work to your advantage, so you may just need to hang in there for a while longer. You are probably right, the best thing to do is to fight another slow withdrawal, although you don't have so much more space to trade for time.

If I could see how, I would urge you to set up a trap, but with as little as your units seem to be capable of against the skillfully wielded and well-conserved German Army, any trap or attempt to fight will receive a hearty welcome from Q-Ball... I would reduce my line between Moscow and Leningrad to a skeleton force, and hold Moscow with as little as I could afford. Moscow still counts in VPs, and is a damaged by still valuable rail center. Yet will Q-Ball care about that? No, probably he knows that this war is about destroying the enemy, and not his infrastructure, which anyways to largest parts is out if his reach.

So I would try to free as much forces and send them to Baku and the rear of Stalingrad. Then allow a Q-Ball a steady advance towards both, hoping he that he will take up that chance and that he will advance faster than the railroads can be fixed in his rear. Unlikely to be slow now, though. If so, maybe there will present itself a chance to counterattack him. If not... just keep walking... Summer in Siberia ain't that bad... [;)]

Rifle Corps will make a difference, but that alone won't suffice. Artillery and Tank Corps, and even then you still need to wear down the Wehrmacht, especially the mobile reserves. I think IdahoNY showed nicely how slow the progress against Axis can be if the fire-brigades are still capable of blunting Soviet spearheads.

PS. Baku is a permanent supply source for the Soviets -- what happens if it is taken? It also should play a role in Lend-and-Lease, right? What if he cuts that rail line to the Arabian ports, will parts of L&L stuff get stuck or not arrive? I should take a look at the manual...



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek (11/29/2011 11:17:37 AM)

Thank you for the comments janh :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
PS. Baku is a permanent supply source for the Soviets -- what happens if it is taken? It also should play a role in Lend-and-Lease, right? What if he cuts that rail line to the Arabian ports, will parts of L&L stuff get stuck or not arrive? I should take a look at the manual...


Yes, it's a permanent supply source. But if it's gone, then the entire Caucasus is gone as well. And with it almost two thirds of the Soviet oil production. He only needs to raid that to inflict a very severe blow on the Soviet Union. That maneuver would also endanger my forces in the Crimea, as they would become flanked. I'm thinking about evacuating most of my troops there to the Krasnodar region.



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