RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (Full Version)

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gingerbread -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/18/2011 10:17:01 PM)

Hm, May '42 and it's already not fun to be a German, though it will still take some time before the Germans realize this.



Flaviusx -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/18/2011 10:21:11 PM)

He's still not really committing to anything as yet. He can strike in 3 different directions from that location. You may have jumped the gun a bit in the caucusus although they're still on rails and can be diverted elsewhere.

Careful with Southern Front. Its position is indeed precarious.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/18/2011 10:33:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Hm, May '42 and it's already not fun to be a German, though it will still take some time before the Germans realize this.


I hope you are wrong. I think the Germans should prevail (as it should be). Anyway, what makes you think the Germans should be worried? [:)]

Flavius, the thing is I didn't have anything south of the Don, except the 40 Stavka Army (mere 5 miserable divisions). Had this been clear weater and had he striked he would have flooded the area. Anyway, there are still many reserves in the center. Not to mention that parts of the reserves sent to south will be redirected (wait & see). The area N of Stalino is threatened so I will be retreating from that place. And bringing reserves north of this area.



gingerbread -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/18/2011 11:48:38 PM)

I honestly hope so too, but I don't see a reason for you to be worried.

Sure, the Germans can advance but what can they threaten? Even the loss of Moscow, while unwelcome, would not be a disaster.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:07:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I honestly hope so too, but I don't see a reason for you to be worried.

Sure, the Germans can advance but what can they threaten? Even the loss of Moscow, while unwelcome, would not be a disaster.



Yes, the loss of Moscow should not be an über catastrophe. All 3 hexes = 90 manpower points. What's that? Less than the 5% of the USSR? Because that's the only thing he would be grabbing. Industry was already evacuated during the summer/autumn.

Anyway the OOB and manpower / armament points. The latter are really increasing. Now above 300k [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/5EB1FA6647224B80A53D60F2F8E2C7FE.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:15:51 PM)

This turn I am facing big dilemmas [:)]

I had sent quite many forces to fight (in theory) south of the Don, Rostov to protect the Caucasus approaches. But given that Marquo has striked in the north maybe he is not really interested about the south.

So I am only keeping 3 armies (attached to Caucasus Front): 40, 51 and 60. The 4th Shock is waiting behind these armies. I also keep 2 Tank Corps + 2 cavalry Corps + 2 Independent Guards Divisions. Just in case.

And of course, IF the Caucasus is Marquo's main target I would be shifting more reserves to this place.


[image]local://upfiles/11562/58CE4507A02348C89E15F0246DF41C0D.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:25:49 PM)

I redirected forces which were going to Caucasus area to the north.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/961CDBD029964F919509BB38A07077FE.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:32:32 PM)

In the center recon shows he's concentrated some panzers as well. The problem is, I haven't clearly detected the northern pincer (if there is one). Still, I guess he will try to put these armored hordes to good use. Therefore I am calling the Stavka armies that were staying near Moscow (just in case): the 1st Guards and 4th Shock. 3 Tank and 2 Cavalry Corps are coming as well.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/EC6BB4BF94A84150ACAFA554B1CED2C6.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:38:14 PM)

Now all 12 Stavka armies (I had activated another one) are committed, well, in fact waiting behind the front most of them. Well, I send one to the reserve: the 39 Stavka Army. They were in the Northwest Front to avoid a possible encirclement I was expecting. The place is quiet and I guess he won't be trying anything so I pull them back.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/CE7BA5E662B648E5A00FC15943440E0E.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/20/2011 9:46:26 PM)

I still have 22 ready Stavka Rifle Divisions + 15 Rifle Divisions around Gorky that will be assigned to the Strategic Reserves = 37 Rifle Divisions (many of them Guards).

As I had said above, I will always try to keep 15 divisions aorund Gorky to rotate frontline low morale units.

And In fact there are more rifle divisions digging here and there: Voronezh area, west of Stalingrad. Etc etc. That would easily make 50 rifle divisions.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 6:23:53 PM)

As for the Rifle Corps I think I found the most coherent strategy in the first part of 1942 [8D]

First some considerations:

1) reassigning Corps is very expensive (or should I say prohibitive)
2) I will not have a lot
3) they should make a difference (concentrate them in key places etc)
4) C&C is very important: they cannot be directly attached to STAVKA

From this I have concluded that the Rifle Corps should be created only in 2, 3 or 4 Stavka Armies (one of them the 1st Guards). Why? Because if they are supposed to be sent to key places they need to be in "mobile" armies: Stavka armies, NOT front armies. If they are attached to the latter they would be stuck (unless a pay a fortune), and maybe the e-enemy strikes another part of the front.

The same can be said about the Tank and Cavalry Corps. I should concentrate them in 3 or 4 armies.

I can't see another rational solution. If anyone has a better solution, by all means go ahead. I am all ears [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 6:31:25 PM)

Humm, I just learned how to create Tank Armies. In july they will be available... But if I want to committ the tank corps to any battle (before july) AND want to avoid the C&C hell, I should assign them to a nearby army... but when the Tank Armies are created I should be reassigning the corps to these armies. EXPENSIVE! [X(] So I really don't know what's the best strategy here. I really need your help. What should I be doing with the tank corps until july?

Thanks [:)]



gingerbread -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 7:01:56 PM)

Unless you absolutely have to do something with them, nothing. They should train (refit 15+ hexes away) until the tank ground elements have above 40 in exp. 45+ exp is even better.



olivier34 -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 7:10:31 PM)

A real pleasure to follow your game Tullius. I like how you handle the red army, how you try to build something close to the reality of this conflict. A question regarding the Recon results. Do you find this accurate ? Is there the feeling of this Fog of War that makes wargaming so interesting. It seems that you can spot the armor divisions of your opponent quiet well. Do you think that you could hide to the germans a concentration of soviets armys during several weeks and launch a "surprise" major counter offensive ?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 8:12:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
Unless you absolutely have to do something with them, nothing. They should train (refit 15+ hexes away) until the tank ground elements have above 40 in exp. 45+ exp is even better.


The problem is my guts (or my e-killer instinct) are telling me throw everything you have (and more) to stop the German summer offensive. Morale is not a problem (above 50). The experience of the new elements (when you form the corps) is low, true. But still, I only need to survive until autumn or winter, then Berlin should be on my radar. But until that date I will use everything I have to stop, slow down, delay Marquo's hordes. I don't think I can afford these HIGH offensive CVs and MPs (as opposed to ants) doing nothing in the rear. I really want to put them to good use.

In other words, swim or drown, no other choice (for them) [:)]

And anyway, my other game showed they were useful after all: they trashed panzer / infantry spearheads (hit & run tactic). So fair enough.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/21/2011 8:22:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: olivier34
A question regarding the Recon results. Do you find this accurate ? Is there the feeling of this Fog of War that makes wargaming so interesting. It seems that you can spot the armor divisions of your opponent quiet well. Do you think that you could hide to the germans a concentration of soviets armys during several weeks and launch a "surprise" major counter offensive ?


Yes, quite accurate. In fact, I am not really keeping track of all the German divisions, as other players are doing (and that IS the efficient method by the way). I just need to see the big picture. In short, all I want to know is where the panzer concentrations are DANGEROUS. I can ignore only 4 panzer units in x place for example...

I'm looking for the big boys, the huge concentrations that CAN create a big mess if you don't pay attention.

As for hiding, I really don't know if that might work. Heavy woods, I guess, 10 hexes behind the front. Still, as long as you have strategic reserves (already on rail lines), nothing in this world can stop you from concentrating them once the hidden panzer hordes show up [8D]

As for me hiding, in this case it MIGHT work. But simply because the Germans -unlike the Soviets- cannot afford huge strategic reserves. So these hidden units might be more dangerous on this scenario. In fact, I will have to try this strategy come 1943, 44... 45 [sm=00000622.gif]

In fact it's the strategic reserves that 100% allow you to react (on offense or defence) as quickly and overwhelmingly as possible. No matter the scenario. That's why they are so important. And not only to the Red Army. This is true for any WW2 army.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 3:41:35 PM)

Turn 49
21 May 1942

Well first of all Merry Christmas (or Winter Solstice, as you prefer) [:)]

Marquo is showing again the style he displayed during the Blitzkrieg. He used a methodical, systematic approach, making small pockets his cannibals could easily diggest unmolested (by my hordes trying to help the poor victims that is) [:D]

In the south, yes, it looks like he is ignoring the Caucasus. Or maybe he is waiting. He has mentioned the bug which prevents from getting the A and B Army things (created during the summer offensive 1942).

In the center he has striked. But as I said above, forming a one-hex pocket. Two rifle divisions were swallowed. That's all.

This turn I have activated two more Stavka Armies (5 regular Rifle Divisions each): the 47 -activated then deactivated- and the 56. And on next turn I will be activating another one. Now I am quite happy with the defensive dispositions to stop the main panzer threat, but if for some reason they turn south again (towards the Caucasus), these new armies would be of course handy [8D]

This turn I have created the 14th Tank Corps. So as I had said from now on I will be creating only one per turn. In june I will be forming GUARDS rifle corps, minimum one per turn. The Voronezh Front will mean = more APs I badly need.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 4:04:04 PM)

Oh, and my biggest disappointment: the bloody Rifle Brigades. Pathetically useless (if we talk about fort builders). They are only good to avoid fort degradation.

The only thing I could have done: keep -during the blizzard- between 20 and 30 rifle divisions to build forts (the defensive lines: maximum level 2). The brigades then occupy these hexes, the divisions dig in next place.

But of course this means less Guards harvested. And my blizzard strategy is simply hit hard with everything you have, do not miss a single opportunity. Hadn't I done that I would not have gotten 53 Guards Rifle Divisions + 2 Guards Mountain + 16 Guards cavalry divisions (or 6 Cavalry Guards corps).

I would like to see on the game what the Soviets had: 10 engineer armies, only used to prepare defensive positions [;)] The Soviets were not idiots (well, it's more about the survival instinct). The summer 1941 showed them the German forces COULD do really dangerous, lethal penetrations (they were on the receiving end, eh). They clearly understood they NEEDED depth, defensive positions behind the frontline, up to EVEN 500 km in 1942. Facts, sorry. I simply want what they had. And right, these defensive positions (mostly in the center, where they expected the German attack)) did not help them in the south.

But I digress, sorry [:)] The thing is I am disbanding the brigades and forming divisions.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 4:18:06 PM)

In the center the 3rd Shock, 1st Guards, Western Front reserves and independent Tank and Cavalry Corps are waiting. If he strikes and advances I might do some sort of hit & run thing. If I am lucky that is [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/766C004032DB450E851F70F56008F25A.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 4:45:01 PM)

Now my forces protecting the Caucasus are stronger. The Caucasus Front now is a continuous line (3 armies here + 1 army in Crimea, which I might attach to Stavka, we will see). Marquo hasn't crossed the big river yet so these are good news.

Despite the penalties, last turn I trashed two axis weak allies ants (1:1). No matter the big river thing, they retreated.

As I said above, if he comes back in force, I would be bringing the two stavka armies I have activated this turn. And in fact more forces if he really wants to push in this area.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/CF94FA4CFB264EA1A5796FD5D7F9865A.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 6:46:25 PM)

Cant you use the brigades to merge into a depleted rifle division or corps at some point? Or save them to help form corps 2divs+1brigade?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/24/2011 7:48:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Cant you use the brigades to merge into a depleted rifle division or corps at some point? Or save them to help form corps 2divs+1brigade?


Yes, I think you can do that (I don't remember exactly the rule). Still, I want new divisions now (Marquo has been destroying more or less 2 each turn -the shattered thing- plus the last victims). I want counters that is. The merge option: I have men and materiel so I don't think I need that.

My rule of thumb: 2 brigades = 1 division; 3 divisions = 1 corps.

I never liked disbanding things. In WitP I never scuttle ships (no matter the damage). I will always try to save them. Some sort of fetishism, I know.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 10:33:09 PM)

Turn 51
4 June 1942

Welly welly welly well...

Today -4 june- my undetected Task Forces surprised the Imperial Japanese Navy and managed to sink three enemy carriers in the morning and a fourth one in the evening. The Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu are in the bottom of the ocean. The amphibious enemy forces are apparently retreating, Midway is definitely safe! [8D]

Errrr, back to the Eastern Front... First of all this looks like a [not so] mini 1941 redux [8D]

I am pretty certain Marquo has finally shown ALL his cards... First relative surprise: there is a quite big attack in the center: 11 panzer Divisions + the Motorized chums.

In the South: 8 Panzer divisions + the Motorized chums. In theory the attack in the south is ignoring the Caucasus: only 2 Panzer divisions seem to be in Rostov area. A sideshow, we might conclude. They might advance towards Voronezh or (who knows) link with the panzer threat in the center.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/B19F7C6EABBA4FE6A4C9885EB895A478.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 10:48:47 PM)

And yes! The Guards Rifle Corps are herrrre! And they are here to stay, well, unless Marquo somehow manages to swallow them, I will have to pay extra attention! [sm=innocent0001.gif]

Some moons ago I had concluded I would be concentrating these corps in 2, 3 or 4 STAVKA Armies aka mobile armies, that could be sent here and there as needed.

Two armies have been chosen this turn: the 1st Guards and the 56th (Malinovski is the mighty boss). Their OOB:

1st Guards Army:
- 1st Guards Rifle Corps
- 2nd Guards Rifle Corps
- 2nd Guards Cavalry Corps
- 5 x Guards Rifle Divisions
a respectable army, eh!

56th Army:
- 3rd Guards Rifle Corps
- 4th Guards Rifle Corps
- 10th Cavalry Corps
- 5 x Regular Rifle Divisions

The support for the Guards Rifle Corps: 2 x Sapper Regiments + 1 AT Regiment (as per Flavius suggestion, well, if I remember correctly what he had said on my other AAR, and obviously what I had done).

[image]local://upfiles/11562/A56CC007B968471588E5AA408E70C1B8.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 10:57:32 PM)

You gonna put those big boys in reserve mode to help out defensively?



DTurtle -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 10:58:41 PM)

Just making sure you know this, but (Guard) cavalry does not get any benefit from being attached to Guard/Shock armies, as they already receive bonus morale.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 11:03:29 PM)

And of course june also means the Voronezh Front is here. Given that I am a history freak they will be covering an area between the Bryansk and Southwestern Fronts (as it should be that is). I had of course to assign two armies to this new front. One was the left flank of the Bryansk front (33 Army) and the other one the right flank of the Southwestern Front (5 Army).

Yes, I have Stavka armies and could have assigned them to this new front, but these armies are supposed to be strategic reserves that I should be moving around, depending on the enemy panzers. That's their vital task.

Therefore the Voronezh Front has only 2 armies. I will assign a third army in the future (a Stavka army). And now both the Bryansk and Southwestern Fronts have 3 armies each.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/8400F9AB118F4F5D840CDF0563ECE2C3.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 11:08:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

You gonna put those big boys in reserve mode to help out defensively?


I remember you had asked me exactly the same on my other AAR, Randall [:)]

Too lazy to go find my answer but it will be the same. Hmm, as I see it, I want them to be active. If I see a nice opportunity to trash the enemy spearheads I will throw them to the enemy. On reserve, that is a passive role. And they might not be committed after all. And if they are committed, maybe it's in the wrong place. Therefore I think I won't be doing that. We will see. Maybe I will change my mind [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 11:10:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

Just making sure you know this, but (Guard) cavalry does not get any benefit from being attached to Guard/Shock armies, as they already receive bonus morale.


Are you sure? I think this rule applied to Shock Armies. I am pretty certain having guards in guards armies = some sort of bonus.



DTurtle -> RE: Dabai Tovarischi! (12/30/2011 11:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Are you sure? I think this rule applied to Shock Armies. I am pretty certain having guards in guards armies = some sort of bonus.


I bookmarked this thread, which summarizes the situation and rules, so I always have it at hand (until the rules change again [;)] )

Short version: Guards rifle units & Guards non-motorized support -> Guard army
Non-guards rifle units & non-guards non-motorized support -> Shock army



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