RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (Full Version)

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Baelfiin -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/29/2011 10:15:37 PM)

Dont waste ap's putting guards into a shock army, they wont get any benefit from it. Nor will tanks.



Mike13z50 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/29/2011 10:17:30 PM)

Not Cavalry or Mountain troops either; just infantry and artillery get the bonus for being in Shock Army.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 2:03:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I would recommend at least 2, preferably 3 Sapper regiments per fort level of the hex you intend to attack. Also bring lots of artillery.



When you say BRING artillery, do you mean arty brigades attached directly to the corps attacking, or independent arty units placed one hex to the rear firing in support of the assault?

Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 2:47:27 AM)

Turn 78

Overall
My attack force is slooowly gathering, while the weather is as bad as it will ever get (blizzard, lvl 10 frost), I need a few more turns to be ready, so for now I only use my airforce.
Losses are once more within the "normal" range, with 22.000 Axis troops to our 62.000.
158.000 labourers are returned to the manpower pool this turn, while 92.000 fresh pair of hands are rectuited in our manpower centres. The manpower pool however is at an all time low with 37.

Units
Once more I resisted the urge to build more units, yet I have a strong feeling I will need more at the end of the winter, as I will need to place three units on the line along the rivers if I am to hold the rivers come spring. That does not leave me alot of units to the rear, and none as a mobile reserve. It seems I am currently suffering worse from the long front than the Axis.
So, the only new unit this turn is....yes. An airfield...
Our existing forces record a net increase of 186.000 troops this turn. We are once more close to the 7.000.000 mark.

Partisans
The Axis launched 6 attacks on our partisans this turn, scoring 5 retreats and 1 surrender [:@]
Oh well, we are still left with 18 partisan units on the map after the Axis have finished. 8 sabotage missions are conducted this turn, while the airforce decide to only perform 4 supply drops.

Worries
I am not at all confident about attacking I must say. But the forces are gathering, and we will make an attempt, now all I need to decide is what units to attack. I also estimate that I will do no more than pushing them back one hex, which last winter showed to do little to their CV, well atleast if they are knocked back they cannot use their forts anymore. ETA on the assault is Christmas Eve (2 turns).




[image]local://upfiles/11504/29100540D0304865857CB4BEEDB9A337.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 3:03:15 AM)

Terje;

Great AAR BTW, which is why I keep commenting.

One way to crack almost any German line: Launch a couple suicide attacks on a unit, THEN your main one. The suicide attacks fatigue the unit, and make it very vulnerable to a determined attack.

This will cause huge losses on that initial line, but I would bet the Collective Farm that there are not lvl 3 trenches behind it.

So, if you push 2 units with a hex in between them, and push units in there gettting a ZOC lock, he'll have to fall back. And probably fall back into less fortified hexes.

Hope that helps.

PS: On Corps, not sure on the TOE's, it's been awhile, but IIRC, the initial TOE for Rifle Corps is very low, but increases greatly in October '42. I would not create Corps before then. I like Tank Attachments, but Flavius also likes AT guns, I would look at that.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 3:19:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Terje;

Great AAR BTW, which is why I keep commenting.

One way to crack almost any German line: Launch a couple suicide attacks on a unit, THEN your main one. The suicide attacks fatigue the unit, and make it very vulnerable to a determined attack.

This will cause huge losses on that initial line, but I would bet the Collective Farm that there are not lvl 3 trenches behind it.

So, if you push 2 units with a hex in between them, and push units in there gettting a ZOC lock, he'll have to fall back. And probably fall back into less fortified hexes.

Hope that helps.

PS: On Corps, not sure on the TOE's, it's been awhile, but IIRC, the initial TOE for Rifle Corps is very low, but increases greatly in October '42. I would not create Corps before then. I like Tank Attachments, but Flavius also likes AT guns, I would look at that.


Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. So the key to play the USSR is to do as the USSR actually did? [:D]
Yes, the plan for when I attack will be
1. Aerial attacks
2. Weak single unit attacks
3. Main attack with arty support
My main concern is the ability (or lack there of) to attack two hexes with enough force to actually succeed. But will see what can be done. I am also contemplating attacking in the south next turn in the vain hope he will direct some of his reserves down there (the reason is that this is where his line is weakest, but an attack here would also shorten the line which is why I will not launch the main attack there).

My attachments will be 1 sapper regiment, 1 heavy tank regiment, 1 tank regiment. I would love to replace the normal tank regiment with 1 more sapper, but I do not have the spare units in pool to actually build more sappers.

Anyway will be fun to see me botch up another part of the year 1943 [:D]

Once more, all feedback, be it praise or telling me how foolish I am behaving is greatly appreciated from one and all that post here [&o]


Terje



M60A3TTS -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 4:36:35 AM)

Remember that since it is now December 42, you can build artillery or rocket divisions that can engage the bad guys at a range of two hexes. That can help bulk up your offensive.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 5:58:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Remember that since it is now December 42, you can build artillery or rocket divisions that can engage the bad guys at a range of two hexes. That can help bulk up your offensive.


Yup, have 5 of them now on the map, although on their own they do not seem to do very well, I hope they will be worth it when I use them to support my main attacks.


Terje



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 9:34:53 AM)

On my other game I hadn't created artillery units in 1942. This time it's different. Almost the end of blizzard and I have already created half a dozen: light guns and howitzers. I plan to have a dozen minimum (Stavka strategic reserves).

First of all because they are more toys, and I want all of them (just like a kid)! [:D]

Now more seriously, these artillery units CAN be very useful now with the new rules. Why? Because the 1:1 = 2:1 is gone [;)] This means you will need to look under every rock to find offensive CVs (if you want to make successful attacks that is). And that's exactly what these artillery units will give you. So as long as you can afford them (armaments) they make much more sense now.



gingerbread -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 4:08:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I would recommend at least 2, preferably 3 Sapper regiments per fort level of the hex you intend to attack. Also bring lots of artillery.



When you say BRING artillery, do you mean arty brigades attached directly to the corps attacking, or independent arty units placed one hex to the rear firing in support of the assault?

Terje


Actually, I meant it more in a cheery send of kind of way - the Soviets usually have lots of artillery. I don't think you can attach art to corps, so they must come either from HQ or on map. But do spend some love on ensuring that the HQ's have a productive load out without going overboard on AP spent.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 5:26:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Did Oloren use the technique of using more than one FBD to repair the same rail line in this game (this was a bug and is no longer possible, but just curious if it was used here)?


Just got the reply from Oloren;
"Don't know how I missed the question from Matrix. I used my rail units on separate lines as far as I know except that late in the summer/fall of 41 and occasionally in 42 I would be repairing a hex and then the next repair unit I was moving was close by and able to repair a line adjacent to one just repaired. I don't know if that's what they are asking about. It was not common and I wasn't clever enough to be able to use it as a cool strategy. "

Hope that answers your question.


Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 5:27:40 PM)

@TulliusDetritus & Gingerbread
Have any of you created artillery divisions? Are they better than two artillery brigades as that is what they compare to in AP cost?



Terje



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 9:04:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

@TulliusDetritus & Gingerbread
Have any of you created artillery divisions? Are they better than two artillery brigades as that is what they compare to in AP cost?



Terje


This is my third game. On the second we only got to june 1942 (the game was stopped because the Red Army was ahistorically strong). The divisions you are referring to appear later (autumn or winter 1942?).

As I said on my last message, this is the first time I create these units (because in theory I should badly need ANY available firepower come summer '42).

From what the gurus said, yes, the divisions are much better.



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 9:22:52 PM)

The divisions are hugely better, with the sole exception of the heavy rocket brigades. Artillery brigades simply do not pack a lot of firepower, they are comparable to an artillery SU in terms of tubes. You're better off dropping 5 APs on 5 artillery SUs, and these will tend to have heavier weapons than the brigades. The sole advantage of the brigades is control: you get to choose their commitment to battle.

A tube artillery brigade is not equal to 1/3 of an artillery division in raw TOE terms. (The rocket artillery brigades, however, are, and that's what makes them a good buy.)




gingerbread -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 10:06:37 PM)

I'd like to make a case for the '43a Mortar Brigade. With 144 120mm, you get 4 times the tubes vs. the 36 tube SU, and you have control. Real cheap in ARM at 144x9=1296. But it to early in your game, April '43 and after.



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 10:09:38 PM)

Ok, the 43 mortar brigade is kind of sexy, but none of the 42 brigades come near that.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 10:46:49 PM)

[&o]



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (11/30/2011 11:38:10 PM)

Turn 79

Overall
I decide to launch two attacks for two reasons;
-By aiming of two corners of the pocket south of Moscow, I hope to create a sense of threat towards this salient. Included in the attempted ruse, is a curse about my units inability to move after attacking in the mail to the OKH.
-I needed to see what attacks would seem like at this stage of the game, would I still see those wastly reduced CV on my side?
The effect was beyond belief, my modified CV was increased while the Axis was reduced to almost nothing. At the start the attack shown below was reported as 1.9 : 1. This opens up some possibilities I did not think I had, but do not worry, I will not attempt any Hail Mary passes (it is really painful to be a Vikings fan these days btw...)

With 144.000 returned to the pool, and 92.000 recruited this turn, our manpower pool is at its highest for quite some time, with 112. TOE of our units however is looking quite good, with an estimated 10% being above 100%, 70% being in the 90-100% range, and 10% being between 70-90&. Not alot of units left that are really low, and these units are now rotated towards the rear to get priority in the replacement queue.
Although we launched two attacks, losses are still low with 25.000 Axis troops lost to 62.000 of ours.

Units
As usual we get the weekly airfield from Stalin, but since talks have been going about an offensive, we were also presented with a new rifle division as well. Beside this, I order the formation of 2 artillery divisions and 1 rocket launcher division. The latter I am glad to report, comes out with Guard status Our units report a net growth of 162.000 troops this turn, which is a good number indeed.

Partisans
WOW!!!
19 sabotague actions this turn.
Sadly only 1 supply drop was made this turn, and the Axis forced a staggering 9 partisan units to retreat. However I still count 15 units on the map, so it seems switching more bombers to supply drops was a VERY good idea.

Worries
After playing games like FoF, CoG, BoB and Witp, it feels almost sickening to launch attacks with "counters" like this instead of trying a little more fingerspitzgefühl.

Surprises
Say you managed what!? That was the likely comment from the various generals around the front when it was shown that our ADJUSTED CV was actually higher than initial CV. That is a first.




[image]local://upfiles/11504/C8389D1F3F734C1B9D28C2A2DBC58352.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 12:45:40 AM)

Modified CVs tend to fall when you are badly outnumbered, all other things being equal and the reverse happens when you have the same level of numerical superiority. When you outnumber the defender 9-1, their morale at least for the battle goes to hell. Something like that.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 12:51:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Modified CVs tend to fall when you are badly outnumbered, all other things being equal and the reverse happens when you have the same level of numerical superiority. When you outnumber the defender 9-1, their morale at least for the battle goes to hell. Something like that.


Ah, but when I would launch these kinds of attacks earlier, the pre-battle CVs being 2:1 in my favour tended to end up 1:2 in my disfavour, or if I was lucky, maybe 1.8:1 or even 2.1:1 in my favour. The numbers are far favorable now, there are two major changes that I can see from those days;
1. Increased morale for my units
2. More artillery support.


Terje



gingerbread -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 1:10:18 AM)

Just what happened in this hex after the attack you showed?

[image]local://upfiles/23548/71C22DEA8D774B10846A179798B93210.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 1:26:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Modified CVs tend to fall when you are badly outnumbered, all other things being equal and the reverse happens when you have the same level of numerical superiority. When you outnumber the defender 9-1, their morale at least for the battle goes to hell. Something like that.


Ah, but when I would launch these kinds of attacks earlier, the pre-battle CVs being 2:1 in my favour tended to end up 1:2 in my disfavour, or if I was lucky, maybe 1.8:1 or even 2.1:1 in my favour. The numbers are far favorable now, there are two major changes that I can see from those days;
1. Increased morale for my units
2. More artillery support.


Terje


Yes, well being outnumbered 2-1 is not that big a deal. 9-1 is.



Baelfiin -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 2:37:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Just what happened in this hex after the attack you showed?

[image]local://upfiles/23548/71C22DEA8D774B10846A179798B93210.jpg[/image]

Probably carpet bombing from every thing that could get there.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 11:33:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Just what happened in this hex after the attack you showed?

[image]local://upfiles/23548/71C22DEA8D774B10846A179798B93210.jpg[/image]


Before the attack went in, something like 400 bombers hit the place in a series of attacks. After the attack nothing happened except for the Germans running away (retreat not rout).

Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 11:34:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Modified CVs tend to fall when you are badly outnumbered, all other things being equal and the reverse happens when you have the same level of numerical superiority. When you outnumber the defender 9-1, their morale at least for the battle goes to hell. Something like that.


Ah, but when I would launch these kinds of attacks earlier, the pre-battle CVs being 2:1 in my favour tended to end up 1:2 in my disfavour, or if I was lucky, maybe 1.8:1 or even 2.1:1 in my favour. The numbers are far favorable now, there are two major changes that I can see from those days;
1. Increased morale for my units
2. More artillery support.


Terje


Yes, well being outnumbered 2-1 is not that big a deal. 9-1 is.


I am not talking about ammount of troops, but unmodified CV, this attack too, was shown as just above 2:1 before the attack

Terje



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 12:11:10 PM)

Thank you for posting the detailed battle report. This really allows to comment on a few things:

1. Pounding that unit with Ground Attack missions made a lot of Disrupted elements (411 at the start of the battle). That basically means that one third of his force would fight much less efficiently, right from the start.

2. You reduced fortifications from 1 to 0, thus reducing further this CV (by half actually). This reduced your AFV losses and really expedited things.

3. As M60 and other pointed out, you were enjoying almost 10-1 superiority, both in infantry and artillery. Note that your destroyed, damaged and disrupted ground elements barely account for a 2% of your starting force. His destroyed, damaged and disrupted elements account for about 10% of his starting ready elements.

4. Your leaders worked really well, and more than probably doubled your final CV.

5. Having overall 50 Experience is really good.

I'm pretty sure you were well above the "stacking limits" in attacks (related to the size, division, corps, of the units involved in the attack). This reduced somewhat your ground elements striking power, but seems that engineering support, overwhelming artillery support, outstanding experience and good leader rolls more than made up for that.

EDIT: Actually you were a bit unlucky, it would be likely that the unit would have routed, rather than just retreated.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 12:47:27 PM)

Turn 80

Overall
I step up the ammount of attacks this turn, launching a total of 18. Of ut of these, 11 were held back by the Axis. This is however not as bad as it sounds as 9 of these were "softening up"-attacks, launched at 25:1 in our disfavour. We also scored 7 retreats which was 1 short of what I hoped for, as one of the held results occured in the north. The attacks in the south are now occuring in such numbers that they are code named Operation Fooled You.
Last turn I made a mistake when gathering my forces in the south, as I left a brigade alone on the frontline. This unit was promptly attaked by the Axis, and routed as a result. Well that one was on me and not on the fighting abilities of my unit.
With a higher ammount of attacks, losses are up this turn, with 30.000 Axis troops lost to our 80.000.
As to the manpower pool, it now contains a staggering 4660 workers after seing 92.000 new recruits as well as having 125.000 returned to it. I doubt this small jump in available workers in the pool is permanent though.

Units
I decided to create 3 mechanized brigades this turn. Although I agree with Comrade Q-Ball that my manpower pool could use a rest, I still need to create some units every now and when, but I will not drain my AP pool right now. Losses went up on both sides this turn, yet our forces record a net growth of 156.000 troops this turn.
Almost forgot...The usual airfield was handed to us this turn as well.

Partisans
Although not as good as last turn, still a good one. Only 3 supply drops were performed, yet 10 sabotague actions were undertaken this turn. The Axis launch 8 attacks on our partisans forcing 8 units to retreat, however we still have 19 active units at the start of teh USSR turn. It is now clear to me (as it probably should have been from the start), that supplying partisans more than outweigh the loss of some bomber units for ground strikes.

Worries
Where are those panzer divisions?!



[image]local://upfiles/11504/494FDB8CAE3544B08AB4332F90054A54.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 12:49:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm pretty sure you were well above the "stacking limits" in attacks (related to the size, division, corps, of the units involved in the attack). This reduced somewhat your ground elements striking power, but seems that engineering support, overwhelming artillery support, outstanding experience and good leader rolls more than made up for that.

EDIT: Actually you were a bit unlucky, it would be likely that the unit would have routed, rather than just retreated.


Stacking Limit?! I must have missed something here, could you please explain?
About routing German units, never seen it [:(]

Terje



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 1:59:15 PM)

Not sure if it's in the latest Ammended version of the manual, came in some patch note. I was lucky to remember that when working on the Spanish translation for Chapter 15

Combats have a Coordination Difficulty value, which is computed by adding up the values corresponding to each unit involved in the attack:

Corps: +15
Division: +9
Bde (more than 2,000 men): +5
Bde (less than 2,000 men): +3
Rgt: +3

when the sum exceeds the value of 28, then attacking ground elements chances to fire will be reduced. This reduction is proportional to the degree in which the limit of 28 points is exceeded.

Artillery ground elements aren't affected as much as other types of ground elements, as long as combat takes places at long or medium ranges (range in tactical combat starts at long, and there several steps, where this range is progressively reduced).

SU's aren't counted towards this limit.

So in the combat example you gave, from what I can see in the screenshot, the Coordination Difficulty score was at least

15 (21st Rifle Corps) + 9 (5th Rifle Div) + 5 (87th Rifle Bde) + 5 (93rd Rifle Bde) = 34

there are four other combat units going unaccounted.

EDIT: Since Tactical Combat is so much of a Black Box, it's hard to account for this when deciding whether or not to attack and when. If anything, for the Soviet player, this means that he might end up doing more damage if he attacks in "waves". Here lies in part one of the reasons why Q-Ball's earlier advice on "suicidal attacks" is the way to go when trying to puncture a Germans held line.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/1/2011 2:04:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
About routing German units, never seen it [:(]


All in its due time, comrade. Otherwise we get spoilt and sloppy and the fascist beasts will capitalize that ;)



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