RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (Full Version)

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LoBaron -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 2:34:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.



WHOAaa! Hold up there Sardaukar. I apologize for getting off topic with this here post, but I gots to know. . .

If you remove this thread will my post count go down??? You know some of us are trying hard to get the Matrix Trooper title.

Heck, with sarcastic grunt-whine being my native language - I work damn hard on each of my posts.


Yes, but don´t be afraid, the solution usually is MUD. Yes, MUD.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 2:35:00 PM)

Wholly train wreck batman... [sm=00000016.gif]



USSAmerica -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 2:42:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.


No, this should be a sticky so that poor little ****ers like the original writer, don't need to start a thread like this. Maybe this forum needs some rules. Words like jap makes a few month ban. That should be educating enough.



This is apparently material for THE THREAD in War Room!!!! [:D]


Nope, we regularly keep the place swept clean of trash!



dr.hal -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 3:24:25 PM)

LoBaron, no offense taken as I know none was intended. However I don't agree (respectfully of course) that this sort of conversation need go into the trash heap. This is very much a topic within academia and other places higher up the food chain than a trash bin. If you cut out the trash, which is a lot of this thread, there is some useful discourse. Hal



LoBaron -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 3:42:59 PM)

So, how do you limit to meaningful posts in a forum as this one? Post a sign "no brainfarts permitted"?
I give this a whooping chance of 0.01% to work out.

This may be interesting topic to read a book about, to be discussed with friends, or with a limited group of invite only
participants who have agreed over a couple of houserules beforehand.

On the internet its just an invitation to sell crap. [;)]



dr.hal -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 4:02:58 PM)

Not sure, eliminate selective posts? Screen "members" early and keep track of violations, three strikes and you're out? But I don't think the actions of a few, no matter how low, should dictate the discourse of the many....



Nikademus -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 4:40:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455

Troll (Internet) Defined: Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.   (Wikipedia)


Examples (other than what was provided by the OP):

"WTF is up with Dresden. The city had almost no military significance and yet they intentionally burned alive 25000 civilians, and for what?"

"Of course you will have those who revel in the toil of humanity to find understanding and purpose - Who try to rise above some imaginary level of self assigned civility as if it was going to make us something more than we are. Sorry, but we are no different than anything else that inhabits this 'blue dot.' We are nothing - a transient carbon based life form and that's all we will ever be. So go get another cup of coffee or a cold one and try to find happiness while you can."


Feeding the Trolls Defined:
See this post




one can add:

quote:

HUH, I don't get what Sadman455's point was ? I was confused about why the Japs. executed the raiders but I'm even more confused about Sadman's post....Is Sadman calling himself a "troll" ? Who is this Sadman ? Why is he ranting about "troll" ?


This is called Feigning ignorance. Thats usually a dead giveaway too when a provocative/emotional response is being fished for. Myself, my personal favorite flavor of this is "what is troll? are you a lover of bridges? I don't get it!"

If your truely interested in the Doolittle Raid and some of the motivations and reactions amongst the Japanese military, a simple querry would have sufficed without the racial slurs and alleged emotional outrage.

Reporting this thread to the moderators. We all know where this is going to end up. [8|]




Treetop64 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 5:40:04 PM)

I hear keys jingling...



sandman455 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 6:22:08 PM)

Alas, I kind of hope they just lock it because I'm starting to become attached to my post. The first example was:

A Nietzsche morality play using the dichotomy of
- the singular atrocity made by the few firmly committed
- versus the mass atrocity made by the many indifferent
Very stylish don't you think? I'm sure Friedrich's ghost would have at least given me a nod.

The second was to a tip of the hat to Carl Sagan's most noble attempt for humanity to come together and live in peace by showing how insignificance can actually be utterly significant. Sorry Carl, but it was a pipe dream.

Finally to finish it off, I stuck in some circular reasoning as if I'm some kind of cloud living troglyte who is too busy torturing the works of dead cloud minders to get his hands dirty like others down below mining zenite.


OMG - In a single post I'm able to offend the work of Nietzsche, Sagan and make a Star Trek reference. . . and the post count surges towards 30.

Please Please, no applause or bows. I'm embarrassed.



Schanilec -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 6:48:19 PM)

I say. Tennis anyone?



wdolson -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/3/2011 11:42:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Although this discussion is a very valid discussion, the whole tone was tainted by the first post and a number there after. Which is sad, as it is important. Culture is a very difficult aspect of humanity to understand. The reason is simple, we all filter our information input through our own cultural bias. Thus many Westerners can not understand Sharia Law and and its "draconian" penalties. An interesting point about the Japanese culture at the time was the fact of how they treated their OWN Japanese soldiers who surrendered and were "liberated" by the Japanese at a later point. The surrendering troops were treated as lepers and many took their own lives rather than live with the "shame". So some actions that an alternative culture are indeed difficult to understand... and there are very valid reasons for that misunderstanding. What is not appropriate is to make culturally derogatory statements based upon that misunderstanding.


The signal to noise ratio on this thread has become very low. However, trying to stay somewhat on topic...

Culturally the Japanese were following their own patterns. The Code of Bushido infected the entire society and colored everything. They did treat their own soldiers in ways that westerners would not tolerate. Most westerners would be horrified if animals were treated similarly.

It also brings up questions about cultural relativism vs. judging other cultures through your own cultural lens. Japan started the war with the US in part because they saw US culture as weak and figured if they hit American hard enough, it would run away rather than fight. It was a terrible miscalculation, but one made because they didn't bother to get inside US cultural thinking before making a judgement. Yammamoto, who had attended school in the US and spent time there as a diplomat knew American culture better than anyone else in the high command and he called it perfectly when he was given the order: "I will run free across the Pacific for six months, then it will all be down hill from there." (I'm paraphrasing)

There are some practices in past cultures and current cultures I find abhorrent. But there is a very big philosophical question about where do we judge other cultures? I don't have a good answer.

Bill



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 12:14:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
This attitude wasn't unique during the war. Russian and German POWs were frequently abused in similar ways. I have read accounts of American POWs captured by Japan and Germans captured by the Russians, the stories have a lot of similarities.


You forgot to mention that by the end of the year 1941 the Germans had made 3 million Soviet prisoners. By that time 2 million had been already assassinated [;)] I suspect the Soviets knew something about these facts... so... when they started making German prisoners... er... "want a cigarette or some vodka, German tovarich?"...

As for this Doolittle thing, not hard to understand. Some bombs landed (by accident) in the gardens of the Imperial residence. Emperor is SACRED = you execute the guys. Harsh but that's how it worked in Japan. It's not only a cultural thing. It's rather prosaic. Politics: the country was an utterly agressive fascist state, which encouraged / ordered countless atrocities everywhere in the Pacific and Mainland Asia.

The fate of these poor pilots was simply obvious and natural for that kind of state. Gangsterism is perhaps more appropriate. The "cultural relativism" should not be used as a shield. They were gangsters, that's all.



Mynok -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 1:22:24 AM)


It's always fascinating to me to see threads like this and I've already green buttoned the OP.

He's been a troll for a fracking long time guys. You still don't have him ignored? Shakespeare said something about that. Suggest you hunt that down.



oldman45 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 1:37:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


It's always fascinating to me to see threads like this and I've already green buttoned the OP.

He's been a troll for a fracking long time guys. You still don't have him ignored? Shakespeare said something about that. Suggest you hunt that down.



If it smells like a troll.......? I am too lazy to hunt down Shakespeare [;)]



oldman45 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 1:39:06 AM)

Actually if you find a book called Hell on the Eastern Front, you will see what war is like on a grand scale with no rules.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 1:45:54 AM)

I recognized the OPs name and new it would go downhill. Especially the tone of it as well.



zuluhour -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 2:10:37 AM)

quote:

The term "Nip" for Japanese ranks right up there with the other "N-word" that they won't use on Television in the US, even when it's part of a news story.  Most Japanese consider it a very bad racial slur. 

quote:

The term "Nip" for Japanese ranks right up there with the other "N-word


I had no clue to this. In fact because of the structure of their language I did'ent think it even translated.





Mynok -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 2:16:20 AM)


They call their country Nippon. It's an epithet we used it as such.



Treetop64 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 9:31:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Gees, some people clearly don't get out much....Try stepping out your front door and take a deep breath before you get worked up over the word "nip"


[sm=nono.gif]

<greenbutton>

*** IGNORED ***



Sredni -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/4/2011 11:24:10 PM)

If this post is so distasteful why do you guys keep bumping it up to the top?



oldman45 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 12:32:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

If this post is so distasteful why do you guys keep bumping it up to the top?


I think that question raises the quality of this thread up a few notches [;)]



zzodr -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 1:05:59 AM)

I soon as I saw the first word of this thread spelt wrong I lost interest.




mike scholl 1 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 1:37:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455

"WTF is up with Dresden. The city had almost no military significance and yet they intentionally burned alive 25000 civilians, and for what?"




Coventry? Rotterdam? Those who sew the wind are destined to reap the wirlwind...



sdhundt -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 2:23:43 AM)

The very few in the Witp-AE forum who have pumped this again and again even after I deleted the so called "offensive" parts of the post are the same few who think that this forum is for them and them only. If you check some forum history you will find these very select few think they are the God's of this forum. Most of the attackers of this post know very little of military history and the only joy they get is if they can get a few of their ignorant followers to follow their attacks. I guess I am guilty of using the word "nip" in this post. Well that's how my uncle described the Japs. he fought in the South Pacific. I'll take my verbiage and history from a man that was there. A man who lost friends to an enemy that he called "nips". I'll take my history from a direct source, not from the very few ignorant attackers who think they know a thing or two. That's why they bump this post and attack it, they have nothing else to provide themselves satisfaction. I have played this game for over ten years, I would bet the so called veterans were still playing Uno ten years ago and probably losing at it. So attack me or ignore me I highly doubt if you ever would have been a worthy opponent so you attackers won't be missed.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 5:30:58 AM)

[sm=00000939.gif]



steamboateng -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 8:06:51 AM)

The fact that the Nips actually went thru the trouble of having a trial (Nip kangaroo court) for those airmen, cries loudly of PR with the Nip populace.
The bombing, which caused little damage to the Nip war effort, did send shockwaves through the Nip High Command.
And they reacted in an understanable Nip fashion!
Regards



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 4:05:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.


No, this should be a sticky so that poor little ****ers like the original writer, don't need to start a thread like this. Maybe this forum needs some rules. Words like jap makes a few month ban. That should be educating enough.



Hory crap! [X(] How about LYB? Is that OK?



DanNC -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 4:42:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
...
Culturally the Japanese were following their own patterns. The Code of Bushido infected the entire society and colored everything. They did treat their own soldiers in ways that westerners would not tolerate. Most westerners would be horrified if animals were treated similarly.
...


When I was a kid reading about the treatment of Allied POWs, for instance Pappy Boynton, I was shocked by the brutality of the Japanese. Later reading has made me realize that the physical abuse suffered by the POWs, including the executions, was just part of the Japanese mentality. The Japanese did it to their enemies and their own people. They were simply brutal and cruel.

The Japanese leadership expected to loose 20 million people during the invasions of the Home Islands. They thought that they would win in the end and that the loss of 20 million people was acceptable.

I have no problem with judging other cultures. A culture that brainwashes mothers to the point they will throw their babies and children off a cliff to their death is not a culture we should respect or find acceptable. We certainly would not emulate such a culture. It simply is not a culture that is equal to ours.

Later,
Dan



Sardaukar -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 4:54:14 PM)

Also, the "Bushido" Japanese society was indoctrinated with in 1930's and 40's was twisted and corrupt version of the original bushido. Just less than 40 years before in Russo-Japanese war 1904-05, prisoners were treated correctly, for example.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? (11/5/2011 5:51:00 PM)

This forbidden word thing reminds me of the time I was in front of the Mirage casino in Las Vegas, Nevada and there were two Nevada Highway Patrol Asian-American motorcycle officers (at least one looked Japanese-American) standing there with their bikes parked.

An airhead type asked them admiringly, "Wow, are you guys CHiP's?" (This is an abbreviation for California Highway Patrol but evidently, geography was not her strongest subject).

Without a pause the first officer answers, "No mam, we're NIP's" [:D]



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